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Thread: My first cycle. Will log each pinning day. AI questions

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    JCUSN is offline Junior Member
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    My first cycle and log. Starting pics added. AI questions

    Hi, everyone. I’m running my first cycle, first pin was last Friday, and I’ll be pinning Tuesdays and Fridays. 200mg Test C 2x Test C for 10 weeks, with 250iu HCG 3x per week.

    I’m 34, 5’10”, 160 pounds, 10-12% bf. I’ve been lifting for 3.5 years. I will be doing a standard bodybuilder training split, but with 2 leg days. I’m hoping to bulk, but not gain excessive fat. I enjoy being lean. Is this even possible? Should I include any cardio at all?

    I’m planning to start .25mg arimidex EOD, starting the day after my first pin. Does this sound like a good starting dose? I’ll do labs 4-5 weeks into the cycle.

    I’m currently taking 100mg Test C per week for TRT, so my PCT will include just going back down to that dose. Does anyone disagree with that protocol?

    Question, no men in my family are bald. Of course, some of them are receding a bit, but they are all in their 50s-70s. Does this mean I should probably be fine in regards to hair loss? What does anyone recommend for hair loss protection, including dosing?

    I’ll keep this log updated weekly, and I’ll have pics upload tonight! Thanks for reading!

    Cheers!
    Last edited by JCUSN; 05-02-2018 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Added pics

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    AI dose looks fine. I'd go for 500mg just because lol (the difference is probably small). Just adjust according to the labs, make sure its the sensitive test. Aim for having e2 in the higher end of the physiological range.

    But I would extend the cycle to 12 weeks. It takes time for it to build up being a long ester and time to kick in. Once it kicks in there is a growth period so don't cut yourself short if you keep gaining, but I can guarantee you it ends and it becomes pointless to keep going, no gains but increased sides... Once you go to the gym and aren't making increases in your lifts you know it's over.

    Dropping down to TRT is excellent you don't have to worry about a rollercoaster hormonal ride waiting for you.

    May I ask why two leg days? Front side one day back side the other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    AI dose looks fine. I'd go for 500mg just because lol (the difference is probably small). Just adjust according to the labs, make sure its the sensitive test. Aim for having e2 in the higher end of the physiological range.

    But I would extend the cycle to 12 weeks. It takes time for it to build up being a long ester and time to kick in. Once it kicks in there is a growth period so don't cut yourself short if you keep gaining, but I can guarantee you it ends and it becomes pointless to keep going, no gains but increased sides... Once you go to the gym and aren't making increases in your lifts you know it's over.

    Dropping down to TRT is excellent you don't have to worry about a rollercoaster hormonal ride waiting for you.

    May I ask why two leg days? Front side one day back side the other?
    Thanks for the reply, bro. What is the upper value E2 I should be looking for? I’ve read so many different things. And I’m always sure to use the sensitive assay test. Thanks!

    I’m doing 2 leg day because my legs are just puny haha. They need some growth. And yes, and rear(hams) and front(quads)-emphasis day.

    How do you feel about including cardio and my ability to stay somewhat lean throughout this bulk?

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    Around 30-40 pg/mL is what I have been told by most experienced guys. My levels happened to end up at 30 but from experimenting with more AI or less AI I felt that dose and at that range made me feel best so I went for it (didn't do labs for those other tests just went by feel).

    Cardio is good not just for staying lean but for cardiovascular health. In your case you're pretty light I wouldn't use it to keep that weight, I'd eat a lot more than I burned and made sure I gained some weight and always had energy for training. What's your diet like?

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    Personally I would drop the arimidex , 400mg Will be a good first cycle providing you eat enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Around 30-40 pg/mL is what I have been told by most experienced guys. My levels happened to end up at 30 but from experimenting with more AI or less AI I felt that dose and at that range made me feel best so I went for it (didn't do labs for those other tests just went by feel).

    Cardio is good not just for staying lean but for cardiovascular health. In your case you're pretty light I wouldn't use it to keep that weight, I'd eat a lot more than I burned and made sure I gained some weight and always had energy for training. What's your diet like?
    For diet I’m starting with 3000 calories.
    100f/300c/225p, and a minimum 1 gallon of water per day

    Does this sound reasonable? All “clean” foods, with 2-3 massive cheat meals per week.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lordluke View Post
    Personally I would drop the arimidex, 400mg Will be a good first cycle providing you eat enough.
    Why would you drop the Arimidex ? You don’t think an AI Is necessary to control estrogen levels?

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    How many calories are you currently eating ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCUSN View Post
    For diet I’m starting with 3000 calories.
    100f/300c/225p, and a minimum 1 gallon of water per day

    Does this sound reasonable? All “clean” foods, with 2-3 massive cheat meals per week.
    What is normal for you?

    At 160lbs And 5’10 you need to eat eat eat eat eat eat eat. Not sure what ‘clean’ foods are or why you plan 2 massive cheat meals if you are eating ‘clean’. Just eat.
    NO SOURCES GIVEN

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    I’ll get shot down for this comment but oh well. Estrogen is crucial for muscle growth. Your cycle isn’t that heavy, you will benefit more with the extra estrogen floating around your body and create and better environment for growth. Taking the Ai will also mean you run the risk of potentially crashing your estrogen and not gaining as much on this cycle. Mate look up a thread made by Gearheaded on this subject for further information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lordluke View Post
    I’ll get shot down for this comment but oh well. Estrogen is crucial for muscle growth. Your cycle isn’t that heavy, you will benefit more with the extra estrogen floating around your body and create and better environment for growth. Taking the Ai will also mean you run the risk of potentially crashing your estrogen and not gaining as much on this cycle. Mate look up a thread made by Gearheaded on this subject for further information.
    I agree with you

    if run nolva at 10 mg daily

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lordluke View Post
    How many calories are you currently eating ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Back In Black View Post
    What is normal for you?


    At 160lbs And 5’10 you need to eat eat eat eat eat eat eat. Not sure what ‘clean’ foods are or why you plan 2 massive cheat meals if you are eating ‘clean’. Just eat.
    I’m currently running 2400 calories per day, and it has been mostly maintaining my weight. When I say “clean” I meant non-fastfood, healthy carbs (rice, sweet potatoes, etc.), lean proteins, healthy fats (nuts, avocado, etc.).

    Cheat meals will be things like burgers/fries, pizza, etc.

    Should I up calories even more? Will that yield even more fat gain? If I up calories, which macro should I up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCUSN View Post
    I’m currently running 2400 calories per day, and it has been mostly maintaining my weight. When I say “clean” I meant non-fastfood, healthy carbs (rice, sweet potatoes, etc.), lean proteins, healthy fats (nuts, avocado, etc.).

    Cheat meals will be things like burgers/fries, pizza, etc.

    Should I up calories even more? Will that yield even more fat gain? If I up calories, which macro should I up?
    why cheat?

    keep it clean whole way. just pound clean food.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m.hornbuckle View Post
    why cheat?

    keep it clean whole way. just pound clean food.
    Basically to just keep my sanity, man lol. I can’t eat boring, lifeless food for 3 straight months. I need the occasional mental break from that. And I can’t just not go out to eat with my gf for 3 months either. I don’t intend to go crazy at McDonalds 3 times a week or anything, but also won’t be eating “clean” 100% of the time...more like 85-90%.

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    Added starting/Day 1 pics.

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    Great base, good luck!

    You're already lean I wouldn't risk cutting myself short of gains... Go above 3k cals to get the most out of your cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Great base, good luck!

    You're already lean I wouldn't risk cutting myself short of gains... Go above 3k cals to get the most out of your cycle.
    Thanks, man! I’ll start with 3500 I think. And go up from there after I see how I respond.

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    If I were to have injected into a vein this morning, I’d know it right?

    Call me crazy, but about 10 minutes after injection, I’ve got this tight/sore sensation in my upper back and a very faint tightness in my chest. Nothing crazy or unbearable, and nothing that even caused me to cough or anything. Could have been anything really, but wouldn’t be from injection into a vein, right? Am I just worrying too much already? Lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lordluke View Post
    Personally I would drop the arimidex, 400mg Will be a good first cycle providing you eat enough.
    To whomever,
    If you waited for gyno symptoms to occur (ie; itching and soreness/sensitivity) but no lumps yet, would it be too late to start taking an AI to prevent actual lumps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZoomyR6 View Post
    To whomever,
    If you waited for gyno symptoms to occur (ie; itching and soreness/sensitivity) but no lumps yet, would it be too late to start taking an AI to prevent actual lumps?
    I’m no authority on this, but it’s my understanding that an AI won’t make gyno symptoms go away. Nolva would be used for that, assuming the symptoms haven’t been present for a long period of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCUSN View Post
    I’m no authority on this, but it’s my understanding that an AI won’t make gyno symptoms go away. Nolva would be used for that, assuming the symptoms haven’t been present for a long period of time.
    This is what I have been confused about. If e2 is responsible for gyno, and you eventually bring e2 down via AI before lumps appear, how could it not???

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZoomyR6 View Post
    This is what I have been confused about. If e2 is responsible for gyno, and you eventually bring e2 down via AI before lumps appear, how could it not???
    Nolvadex antagonizes the effects of estrogen in breast tissue specifically. Bringing down E2 with an AI would mean bringing down serum E2 (systemic not local) probably means you have to keep your estrogen too low. Why let E2 go so high to begin with?

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    ZoomyR6 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cousinmuscles View Post
    Nolvadex antagonizes the effects of estrogen in breast tissue specifically. Bringing down E2 with an AI would mean bringing down serum E2 (systemic not local) probably means you have to keep your estrogen too low. Why let E2 go so high to begin with?
    Well the nolva reasoning I get.
    Some people, myself included, would rather do without an AI unless absolutely needed. As soon as symptoms of elevated e2 appear (ie; bloating, libido issues, irritability, hot flashes, facial flushing), then start taking it. I for one had my e2 at 113 (15-29) when I was having those symptoms from trt and hcg until I went on an AI and had no gyno symptoms at that level.

    Wouldn't gyno symptoms stop once the e2 in under control, regardless if it's lowered systemic or not?
    Last edited by ZoomyR6; 03-13-2018 at 06:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZoomyR6 View Post
    Well the nolva reasoning I get.
    Some people, myself included, would rather do without an AI unless absolutely needed. As soon as symptoms of elevated e2 appear (ie; bloating, libido issues, irritability, hot flashes, facial flushing), then start taking it. I for one had my e2 at 113 (15-29) when I was having those symptoms from trt and hcg until I went on an AI and had no gyno symptoms at that level.

    Wouldn't gyno symptoms stop once the e2 in under control, regardless if it's lowered systemic or not?
    A friend of mine once wanted to take the letrozole route for gyno. It helped only a little and didn't get rid of his gyno completely. He ended up getting gyno again later. I'd use the search function for more info...

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    Mel1234 is offline New Member
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    how much ML of Test e should I run with anavar I will be running it for 7weeks I wasn’t think first 2 weeks 0.5 next 3 weeks 1 ML last week 0.5 what do u guys think .? And I have my pct after that for about 14-21 days anything helps thanks

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    JCUSN is offline Junior Member
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    Hey, man. This is my thread about my first cycle. Can you start your own threat about your cycle please?

    Cheers.

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    So Iíve now complete 2 injections of 200mg each. Maybe itís placebo effect, but I feel stronger already. My lifts have all gone up since injecting, and my hunger levels are through the roof. Iíve added 1000 to what I was eating, yet Iím waking up each morning starving! Iím also starting to get more of a libido it seems. Hell, I had to rub it out three times the other day haha. Could it be that since Iíve been on TRT for a year, that my body is responding to the test Cyp injections faster than normal?

    No negative sides to make note of yet.

    Does anyone have any input regarding the hair loss questions I had in my initial post?

    Also, I received back my lab results pre-cycle today. I have uploaded an image of them. Keep in mind, these are TRT numbers.My first cycle. Will log each pinning day. AI questions-0028d474-9d4c-4dc0-9327-8bca131017dd.jpg

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    Start with a low dose aim gyno is the last thing you want.

    By injecting far more test that physiological levels you will be out of the healthy estrogen range....

    Healthy test levels = healthy e2 levels.

    High (unhealthy) test levels = high (unhealthy) e2 levels

    I dont know why people argue. 0.25mg eod is a good place to start on a beginner cycle



    I dont think adex is as strong as people think. I wad prescribed 0.25 3x per week while taking clomid and that brought me into the middle of the healthy range

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    Quote Originally Posted by hollowedzeus View Post
    Start with a low dose aim gyno is the last thing you want.

    By injecting far more test that physiological levels you will be out of the healthy estrogen range....

    Healthy test levels = healthy e2 levels.

    High (unhealthy) test levels = high (unhealthy) e2 levels

    I dont know why people argue. 0.25mg eod is a good place to start on a beginner cycle



    I dont think adex is as strong as people think. I wad prescribed 0.25 3x per week while taking clomid and that brought me into the middle of the healthy range
    that's for you, you have a pretty high body fat though.

    this guy is very lean under 15%.

    bloods will tell only, no bro science.

    but I wouldn't recommend that protocol just because its what worked for you.

    plus your on trt at a very young age, signalling thstvyour hormones are pretty out of whack for whatever reason. be it genetic or environmental.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m.hornbuckle View Post
    that's for you, you have a pretty high body fat though.

    this guy is very lean under 15%.

    bloods will tell only, no bro science.

    but I wouldn't recommend that protocol just because its what worked for you.

    plus your on trt at a very young age, signalling thstvyour hormones are pretty out of whack for whatever reason. be it genetic or environmental.
    I dont want to mess the op's thread up so ill make this my last post on the topic.

    This has been debated on anoyher thread so i think the same arguments are going to be thrown out.

    It is an almost 100% certainty that 400mgs of test will elavate e2 into an unhealthy level. I dont have the data to prove normal e2 is better than high e2 but for me personally, id rather get 3/4s of the gains safely with normal e2 than all of the gains with the complications. (I know the standard response to this is what complications?)

    Bloods will tell. The first cycle stickie reccomends this as an ai protocol as it is a safe bet. Your e2 wont go mental and it shouldnt be enough to crash it.
    Adjust up or down at bw as needed. Not start with nothing and wait and see.

    And yes im 19 on trt for an medically unknown cause, started at 18. I have never cycled. Ive taken pct meds and pinned nebido.

    The choice is up to the op. Do the research and come to an educated decision. Ill be following along for your progress, best of luck!

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    JCUSN is offline Junior Member
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    Thanks for the input so far fellas. In regards to the AI, I’m going to be take .25mg Arimidex E3D to start off. If I notice negative symptoms from low E2, then I’ll reduce the dose.

    Please keep the info coming! I appreciate it!

    Anyone with guidance on hair loss from the info I had in the first post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCUSN View Post
    Thanks for the input so far fellas. In regards to the AI, Iím going to be take .25mg Arimidex E3D to start off. If I notice negative symptoms from low E2, then Iíll reduce the dose.

    Please keep the info coming! I appreciate it!

    Anyone with guidance on hair loss from the info I had in the first post?
    I've been researching mostly Finasteride and Dutasteride in respect to hair prevention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMan017 View Post
    I've been researching mostly Finasteride and Dutasteride in respect to hair prevention.
    I have as well. And most everything I’m reading says to stay entirely away from both. Side effects galore

    Does anyone know approximately how long it takes for hair loss to start once on cycle? Does it vary based on dose? For example, does a lower dose typically yield less hair loss?

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    Any updates?

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    Hair loss is different for everyone I’m lucky no matter what I’m fine some people shed on test alone.

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    Running a test only cycle, unless you have some unusual problem, generally will not give you a prob with hair loss. If you start adding in other compounds, or dht, or anything that converts on a high level to dht, then think about it.

    And Zoomy and Lordluke, i fully understand what you are saying about ai usage- gear, cousin and i have had a few in depth discussions on it.

    But one thing you have to understand is the protocol advised for newbies is based on a safe start to the process, aimed toward someone that isnt knowledgeable about it, and based on the idea that alot of new guys arent diligent on their bloodwork. There are valid points on both sides. I am in the camp that i dont run an ai consistently. I know when my levels are gettin a little high, bring them down a bit and thats that. Its more about staying in a healthy range and which end of that range you feel the best.

    And ive said it again and again- each person is very unique, and there is no one size fits all regimen. Its no better to say that someone must start their first cycle without an ai, than it is to say they must start with one. And even though i prefer to be in a certain range, or to use or not use certain ancillaries, i missed the point in previous convo's with some of the guys- so since i got the point, i now agree with alot of the guys here that have been around a long time- that it is a safer bet to suggest soneone start with an ai at a reasonable dosage until they get their first bloods pulled and go from there, and hope they keep up to speed on bw.

    Not to mention, he is on trt now, and his e2 is at 33, which is a good number, at 100mg a week, we already know this from his labs. If he jumps to 500 a week, where do you think his e2 goes? Im gonna guess he is gonna end up at a higher level than would be optimal for a first timer.

    Im tellin ya, my good friend runs 300mg/wk, and he cant go a week without his arimidex or his tits are on fire. I run a handful more and dont generally have much of a problem with my e2 levels. If you told him he shouldnt use an ai, he woulda had gyno pretty quick, and if you told me i had to run an ai, my levels would be much lower than optimal.

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    Sorry for the delays, fellas.

    This is the end of week 3 now, and I’m up 8 pounds. Abs are starting to fade a bit, but not by much at all.

    My lifts have gone up by a LOT though. Bench alone went up by 35 pounds already and that just doesn’t even seem possible.

    So far, no sides to make note of. I have a couple small pimples on my shoulders, but very very few. I’ve also got a bit of acne on my scalp. Some days my libido is absolutely RAGING. Other days it has been “normal.”

    I’ve reduced AI dosage to .25mg Arimidex only on injection days.

    I’ve noticed no real bloating effects in my face or anywhere else.

    Am I correct that this stuff hasn’t even truly kicked in yet as it’s only Cypionate ?

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCUSN View Post
    Sorry for the delays, fellas.

    This is the end of week 3 now, and I’m up 8 pounds. Abs are starting to fade a bit, but not by much at all.

    My lifts have gone up by a LOT though. Bench alone went up by 35 pounds already and that just doesn’t even seem possible.

    So far, no sides to make note of. I have a couple small pimples on my shoulders, but very very few. I’ve also got a bit of acne on my scalp. Some days my libido is absolutely RAGING. Other days it has been “normal.”

    I’ve reduced AI dosage to .25mg Arimidex only on injection days.

    I’ve noticed no real bloating effects in my face or anywhere else.

    Am I correct that this stuff hasn’t even truly kicked in yet as it’s only Cypionate?
    We all metabolize things at different rates so it could have very well kicked in. Then there's placebo, or better diet (you seem to have gone to a caloric surplus )

    Make sure to get bloods 5-6 weeks in with a sensitive estradiol test. If your libido was fine at 0.25mg adex EOD I would not have changed the AI dose until bloods warranted it. I noticed when missing AI doses my libido went down. When I tried going without an AI on my first cycle, as soon as the test kicked in I noticed it wouldn't be even bearable with the high E2 sides and I am not even gyno prone lol. Felt much better when I controlled estrogen.

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    Great thread, keep the updates coming.

    Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

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    Attachment 172238Attachment 172239Attachment 172240Attachment 172241Attachment 172242

    Progress photos uploaded for 3 weeks complete.

    Question: since I was already on Cyp for TRT, would it make my cycle dosage take effect faster?

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