Fine-tuning First Cycle

[zigzagzig]

Hey guys,

I would really appreciate if you could help me fine-tune my first cycle. Any advice is welcomed. I just turned 35 and I'm planning to start my first cycle in a couple weeks. I've been training hard on the last two/three years, and I'm stuck on 175lbs at 15%bf, I'm 5'11''. My main goal for this cycle is to add size, but I'm looking for dry/lean gains rather than just bloating with water or fat. In the long run, I'd like to increase size, improve hardness and decrease body fat. I understand that to reach all these goals together, if still feasible at my age, it will require a series of cycles. However, I would like to know how could I make the best of this cycle to also improve hardness and reduce body fat at least a bit, from 15% to 13-14%. I've noticed some guys added Proviron to their cycles to improve hardness. Is that a good idea?

Weeks 1 to 12: Test E 500mg/week, 250mg every Monday and Thursday
Weeks 1 to 12: HGC 500iu/week, 250mg every Sunday and Wednesday
Weeks 1 to 12: Arimidex 0.25mg EOD (Blood test at week 6 will tell how to adjust dosage)

PCT:
Weeks 15 to 19: Clomid 75/50/50/50 & Torem 60/60/60/60 (mg per day)

Macros:
I've been using the app myfitnesspal to closely follow my nutrition. I've been targeting 290g C, 290g P, and 70g F, (~2900cal) on workout days and ~2500cal on non-workout days. During the cycle, I plan to increase intake to ~3600cal on workout days while keeping the 40%C, 40%P and 20%F proportion. That would lead to 360g C, 360g P, 80g F. On off days it would be 3000cal.

Questions:

1) Test E has a half life of 7 to 10 days. Once I inject 250mg on day 1, on day 2 I will have on my body around 235mg, on day 3, around 220mg, and so on. Taking into account the subsequent pins, It would take around 11 days for the test to reach 700mg on my body. That's a long time. I wonder what you guys think about front-loading with 500mg of Test E on the first day. In that case, I would be reaching 700mg in just four days.

2) I performed two different pregnancy tests using the HCG I got. The results showed NO pregnancy and naturally I became very frustrated. I already ordered from a different source another HCG. The issue is that I need to start the cycle in one or two weeks so that it finishes before I have any international travel in June. If the new HCG does not arrive in a week or two, is it OK to start it at the second or third week of cycle?

3) I'll be taking Fish oil, multi-vitamine, glucosamine, CoQ10, CEL Cycle Assist, Red Yeast for cholesterol and blood pressure, magnesium glycinate at night for blood pressure. Would you recommend any other OTC supplement, such as tudca?

4) Currently, I workout one day on, one day off. During the cycle, I'm planing to work out 3 days on, 1 off. Do you think it is overtraining?

Thank you!

[Dannyboy51577]

Sounds like a good basic plan. Ill let one of the smarter guys dig into the macros, never been my strong suit lol. You can front load test if you choose but with test only its not necessary on one hand, but wont hurt on the other hand. I usually only front load my test of running with another compound that im front loading, but im also runnin prop so my concern isnt half life.

You will be happy with results of the cycle. Right on with making sure to be diligent on bloods.

[The Deadlifting Dog]

I would not front load your first cycle.
I would start the AI at week 2.
I wouldn't go over 1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Fill with carbs.
Slowly increase your calories as you gain weight on cycle.
It is OK but not ideal to start hCG a little late.
You may find that you need a little more than 500ius of hCG a week. I like 750.
My hCG did infact show that I was pregnant.
At 5' 11" and 175lbs I would strive to put on size. Worry about leaning out at a future date.

[zigzagzig]

Sounds like a good basic plan. Ill let one of the smarter guys dig into the macros, never been my strong suit lol. You can front load test if you choose but with test only its not necessary on one hand, but wont hurt on the other hand. I usually only front load my test of running with another compound that im front loading, but im also runnin prop so my concern isnt half life.

You will be happy with results of the cycle. Right on with making sure to be diligent on bloods.

Thanks for the inputs. Indeed, I've noticed many guys front-loading with Dbol, but as this is my first cycle I prefer to not mix many compounds. Specially Dbol, that apparently gives to much water retention.

[zigzagzig]

I would not front load your first cycle.
I would start the AI at week 2.
I wouldn't go over 1.5g of protein per pound of bodyweight. Fill with carbs.
Slowly increase your calories as you gain weight on cycle.
It is OK but not ideal to start hCG a little late.
You may find that you need a little more than 500ius of hCG a week. I like 750.
My hCG did infact show that I was pregnant.
At 5' 11" and 175lbs I would strive to put on size. Worry about leaning out at a future date.

Thanks for all your comments Deadlifting Dog!

Yeah, I'm considering changing my macros from 40%C, 40%P, 20%F to 45/35/20. That will reduce the amount of whey I need to supplement and it will be filled with clean carbs. Any reason why not to go over 1.5g/lbs?

Also, it makes sense to increase calories step-by-step. I'll increase to 3100cal on the first week, to 3300 on the second, 3500 on the third and finally 3600 on the fourth. Of course, if I start adding fat I can slow it down.

Why start AI at week 2? Maybe because it takes a while for Test E to kick in?

When I got my Test E, I also got a test kit to verify if it was not a scam. I was happy it showed up its efficacy. Unfortunately, the source I trust does not sell HCG and I went to a UGL website to get it. As I didn't had any alternative, I tried ... and I got screwed. Now, I'm trying with another one. Hope for the best. I ordered two 5000iu vials, so yes, I will be able to do 750mg/week.

You are right, I'm striving to put on size. I'm just worried that if I put much fat, later on it becomes difficult to shed. After all, I'm 35.

[cousinmuscles]

Hey guys,

I would really appreciate if you could help me fine-tune my first cycle. Any advice is welcomed. I just turned 35 and I'm planning to start my first cycle in a couple weeks. I've been training hard on the last two/three years, and I'm stuck on 175lbs at 15%bf, I'm 5'11''. My main goal for this cycle is to add size, but I'm looking for dry/lean gains rather than just bloating with water or fat. In the long run, I'd like to increase size, improve hardness and decrease body fat. I understand that to reach all these goals together, if still feasible at my age, it will require a series of cycles. However, I would like to know how could I make the best of this cycle to also improve hardness and reduce body fat at least a bit, from 15% to 13-14%. I've noticed some guys added Proviron to their cycles to improve hardness. Is that a good idea?

Weeks 1 to 12: Test E 500mg/week, 250mg every Monday and Thursday
Weeks 1 to 12: HGC 500iu/week, 250mg every Sunday and Wednesday
Weeks 1 to 12: Arimidex 0.25mg EOD (Blood test at week 6 will tell how to adjust dosage)

PCT:
Weeks 15 to 19: Clomid 75/50/50/50 & Torem 60/60/60/60 (mg per day)

Macros:
I've been using the app myfitnesspal to closely follow my nutrition. I've been targeting 290g C, 290g P, and 70g F, (~2900cal) on workout days and ~2500cal on non-workout days. During the cycle, I plan to increase intake to ~3600cal on workout days while keeping the 40%C, 40%P and 20%F proportion. That would lead to 360g C, 360g P, 80g F. On off days it would be 3000cal.

Questions:

1) Test E has a half life of 7 to 10 days. Once I inject 250mg on day 1, on day 2 I will have on my body around 235mg, on day 3, around 220mg, and so on. Taking into account the subsequent pins, It would take around 11 days for the test to reach 700mg on my body. That's a long time. I wonder what you guys think about front-loading with 500mg of Test E on the first day. In that case, I would be reaching 700mg in just four days.

2) I performed two different pregnancy tests using the HCG I got. The results showed NO pregnancy and naturally I became very frustrated. I already ordered from a different source another HCG. The issue is that I need to start the cycle in one or two weeks so that it finishes before I have any international travel in June. If the new HCG does not arrive in a week or two, is it OK to start it at the second or third week of cycle?

3) I'll be taking Fish oil, multi-vitamine, glucosamine, CoQ10, CEL Cycle Assist, Red Yeast for cholesterol and blood pressure, magnesium glycinate at night for blood pressure. Would you recommend any other OTC supplement, such as tudca?

4) Currently, I workout one day on, one day off. During the cycle, I'm planing to work out 3 days on, 1 off. Do you think it is overtraining?

Thank you!

Hello,

1) The half life of test E is actually around ~5 days. But don't over think it in regards to this because you only make it more complicated. To make it even more complicated the release (the pharmacokinetics) aren't like a math formula it's more like a spike the first couple of days and a drop in serum levels coming by the third-fourth day (check the second page of this: http://www.fertstert.org/article/S00...16)44543-7/pdf ) which makes it sensible to inject twice a week and wait for it to kick in over the weeks. I don't think what I just typed out will help you or if it makes it more confusing, just stick to the protocol it will work

2) Why not wait a week or two?

3) As mentioned NAC seems to be the best bang for your buck and overall effectiveness...

4) Best to figure these things out off cycle and not overtrain on cycle. My experience is there little measurable difference on how much I can train... the response to the training is entirely different though.

Good luck!

[cousinmuscles]

You are right, I'm striving to put on size. I'm just worried that if I put much fat, later on it becomes difficult to shed. After all, I'm 35.

It's all in your head. There's a guy here by the username ScotchGuard02, check his avatar... he is one year from being 60 and doesn't give a damn Lots of guys in there 50s too who are ripped too.

[zigzagzig]

Hello,

1) The half life of test E is actually around ~5 days. But don't over think it in regards to this because you only make it more complicated. To make it even more complicated the release (the pharmacokinetics) aren't like a math formula it's more like a spike the first couple of days and a drop in serum levels coming by the third-fourth day (check the second page of this which makes it sensible to inject twice a week and wait for it to kick in over the weeks. I don't think what I just typed out will help you or if it makes it more confusing, just stick to the protocol it will work

2) Why not wait a week or two?

3) As mentioned NAC seems to be the best bang for your buck and overall effectiveness...

4) Best to figure these things out off cycle and not overtrain on cycle. My experience is there little measurable difference on how much I can train... the response to the training is entirely different though.

Good luck!

1) Thanks for the interesting information on how test E is absorbed. I'll stick to the regular protocol.

2) I will try to postpone the most I can. The issue is that I may have to travel abroad in June, and I would like to have finished the cycle by that time. In that way, I will not have to worry about bring syringes overseas with test. Only PCT pills is easier to travel with.

3) I'll add NAC, thanks.

4) For a lean bulk cycle, would you recommend high rep sets (~12) or low reps and maximum weight?

[zigzagzig]

It's all in your head. There's a guy here by the username ScotchGuard02, check his avatar... he is one year from being 60 and doesn't give a damn Lots of guys in there 50s too who are ripped too.

True, I got work on that. Thanks for the push though.

[cousinmuscles]

4) For a lean bulk cycle, would you recommend high rep sets (~12) or low reps and maximum weight?

Whatever works for you mate but in general lower reps works better for me. I train for strength primarily though... There's a good writeup in the training section on muscle fibers and rep ranges check it out.

[zigzagzig]

Whatever works for you mate but in general lower reps works better for me. I train for strength primarily though... There's a good writeup in the training section on muscle fibers and rep ranges check it out.

Thanks for the reply. I understand that lower reps is better for strength gains. Indeed, I need to improve a lot on the big ones like squat and bench press. My PR on the squat is 5 x 250lbs and on the bench it is 6 x 225lbs. However, currently it is tough for me to reach these numbers, so I do 8 x 235lbs on the squat and 8 x 205 on the bench.

Maybe my question would be better formulated if I put it this way. Is there an optimum strategy during a lean bulking cycle? Such as focusing first on strengh (6 weeks), then deloading max weight but increasing reps (last 6 weeks)?

[cousinmuscles]

Always a good idea to vary stuff even rep ranges, this article should be useful for you: https://forums.steroid.com/workout-t...-training.html

From personal experience the training you do the first couple of weeks doesn't make the gains since the test hasn't kicked in. Once it kicks in you will hit PRs every single workout. For me its weeks 6-12 on enanthate or cypionate. Some people have it kick in week 4-5 I have even heard 3 weeks... But the gains come to a stop What is useful to know about this is go balls to the walls during this period as this is the time between the point where serum test levels peak and saturation occurs. It won't grow any noticeable muscle without training, it is a response to training, so aim to get the greatest PRs be it weight or reps or both every workout.

You can do both rep ranges in a single workout btw. Start with a heavy compound exercise aim for the 6-8 rep range or whatever is heavy for you and then move on to other exercises where you vary the reps. But the heavy work should be first. The fast twitch muscle fibers are dependent on the load so you don't want to be exhausted.

Lean or dirty bulk didn't matter for me training is the same.

[zigzagzig]

Always a good idea to vary stuff even rep ranges, this article should be useful for you: https://forums.steroid.com/workout-t...-training.html

From personal experience the training you do the first couple of weeks doesn't make the gains since the test hasn't kicked in. Once it kicks in you will hit PRs every single workout. For me its weeks 6-12 on enanthate or cypionate. Some people have it kick in week 4-5 I have even heard 3 weeks... But the gains come to a stop What is useful to know about this is go balls to the walls during this period as this is the time between the point where serum test levels peak and saturation occurs. It won't grow any noticeable muscle without training, it is a response to training, so aim to get the greatest PRs be it weight or reps or both every workout.

You can do both rep ranges in a single workout btw. Start with a heavy compound exercise aim for the 6-8 rep range or whatever is heavy for you and then move on to other exercises where you vary the reps. But the heavy work should be first. The fast twitch muscle fibers are dependent on the load so you don't want to be exhausted.

Lean or dirty bulk didn't matter for me training is the same.

I appreciate all your comments. They all make sense. And thanks for the article's link. This knowledge about the difference between 2a and 2b muscle fibers seems very useful. I'll for sure research more on how to go past failure to activate type 2b fast twitch fibers.

I'm planning to do the following split, with ~20 sets each day:

day 1: legs/abs
day 2: chest/shoulders/tri
day 3: back/biceps
cardio 15min warm-up all days

By what I have researched so far, as I'm not lifting extreme heavy weights, looks like it is better to do hit muscle groups more frequently than having a dedicated day to each one. Right?!

[zigzagzig]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the info so far. Yesterday the new batch of HCG came in and I was finally pregnant, hehehe. Therefore, I decided to start the cycle today. This early afternoon, I pinned 250mg of HCG + 250mg of Test-E on my quads using a 23G 1" needle. Apparently, it all went smooth so far. Heading to the gym now. I'll try to log the cycle at least once a week.

[cousinmuscles]

I appreciate all your comments. They all make sense. And thanks for the article's link. This knowledge about the difference between 2a and 2b muscle fibers seems very useful. I'll for sure research more on how to go past failure to activate type 2b fast twitch fibers.

I'm planning to do the following split, with ~20 sets each day:

day 1: legs/abs
day 2: chest/shoulders/tri
day 3: back/biceps
cardio 15min warm-up all days

By what I have researched so far, as I'm not lifting extreme heavy weights, looks like it is better to do hit muscle groups more frequently than having a dedicated day to each one. Right?!

Frequency vs intensity/volume... it's a balance between the two. You can do more work per muscle and do more damage (which takes longer to recover from) or less damage and recover quicker, and fit in more muscle groups per workout.

In my experience I didn't notice a difference in recovery speed on cycle although keep in mind I train for strength and do the big 3 lifts low reps most of the time. Hope I don't discourage you from trying though we are all different and tbh I don't know the right answer.

[cousinmuscles]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the info so far. Yesterday the new batch of HCG came in and I was finally pregnant, hehehe. Therefore, I decided to start the cycle today. This early afternoon, I pinned 250mg of HCG + 250mg of Test-E on my quads using a 23G 1" needle. Apparently, it all went smooth so far. Heading to the gym now. I'll try to log the cycle at least once a week.

Good luck bro!

[Aerospace]

You should add an oral, like Dianabol in. My first cycle was TestE 500 and 75mg Dbol, it was great. You should get more carbs in, especially if you're an ectomorph too. Looks great, you'll love it

[zigzagzig]

Frequency vs intensity/volume... it's a balance between the two. You can do more work per muscle and do more damage (which takes longer to recover from) or less damage and recover quicker, and fit in more muscle groups per workout.

In my experience I didn't notice a difference in recovery speed on cycle although keep in mind I train for strength and do the big 3 lifts low reps most of the time. Hope I don't discourage you from trying though we are all different and tbh I don't know the right answer.

Thanks for your honest perspective. I will be monitoring my recovery time, so if a 3-day split becomes too frequent I'll change to a 4-day, dedicating a day each for chest and shoulders.

[zigzagzig]

Good luck bro!

I must confess I felt some PIP later on that day. More, yesterday I could still fell some discomfort depending on how I moved my quads. On my second pin, schedule for tomorrow, I will try to inject it slower, as I believe it was too fast on my first time. The difference is that it will be on my glutes rather than on my quad. When I see the 1" needle, I say "OK, it fits", but a 1.5" one to use on the glutes is already making me a bit nervous.

[zigzagzig]

You should add an oral, like Dianabol in. My first cycle was TestE 500 and 75mg Dbol, it was great. You should get more carbs in, especially if you're an ectomorph too. Looks great, you'll love it

It would take some time for me to get Dbol. Now that I already started the cycle it wouldn't make much sense to add it on the third or fourth wee, right?! For a first cycle, I just followed the regular protocol. On a second cycle by the end of the year (if all goes well in this one), I'll add an oral.

[Couchlockd]

you should not add an oral. to first cycle out the gate.

you will need a whole new protocol tons of liver protection etc.

ill tell you my front load experiences. out of my 9 cycles, I've front loaded 2. one years ago (think,it was number 4) and currently my 9th.

I front loaded the shit out of this one, first week was;
Monday 400 mg test e, 100 mg test prop, and 35 mg tne.
Thursday was the same dose as above.

it is a not good idea for first cycle as you go to your mid cycle levels win a matter of 5 days. I equate it to riding the top thrill dragster rollercoaster from cedar point.

o-110 in less than a second. it gets real, real fast.

[zigzagzig]

you should not add an oral. to first cycle out the gate.

you will need a whole new protocol tons of liver protection etc.

ill tell you my front load experiences. out of my 9 cycles, I've front loaded 2. one years ago (think,it was number 4) and currently my 9th.

I front loaded the shit out of this one, first week was;
Monday 400 mg test e, 100 mg test prop, and 35 mg tne.
Thursday was the same dose as above.

it is a not good idea for first cycle as you go to your mid cycle levels win a matter of 5 days. I equate it to riding the top thrill dragster rollercoaster from cedar point.

o-110 in less than a second. it gets real, real fast.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, I have already all PCT and supplements necessary for a test only cycle. To add an oral now would not be wise. I hope as it is it will be enough for nice gains, hehehe.

[zigzagzig]

Is there any consensus or at least a popular preferred choice for a supplement that increases appetite? I've already noticed mine has increased a bit on the last couple days, it may be the HCG. However, to achieve 3600cal on mid cycle and to avoid forced eating I'm looking for ways to smooth the process.

[Couchlockd]

Is there any consensus or at least a popular preferred choice for a supplement that increases appetite? I've already noticed mine has increased a bit on the last couple days, it may be the HCG. However, to achieve 3600cal on mid cycle and to avoid forced eating I'm looking for ways to smooth the process.

b-12

[zigzagzig]

b-12

Thanks. Any advice on witch kind (pill, brand, etc) and dosage?

[zigzagzig]

I ended up getting a sublingual B12 (Methylcobalamin) from Amazon. I'll do 5000mcg/day. I took the advice of getting the Methylcobalamin version and the dosage from (https://forums.steroid.com/supplemen...questions.html). According to it, the 5000mcg/day sublingual should be equivalent to the 1000mcg/week IM.

[cousinmuscles]

Appetite, lol I can lend you some... Peanut butter protein bars come to mind, very calorie dense... Pancakes made on 2 eggs 2 large bananas 120g steel cut oats... Bulking foods check the diet section there should be many recipes. I think the peanut butter protein bars may be the most packed calories I have tried, minimal volume, I do them with dates, peanut butter, chocolate whey, ground flax seeds, sometimes cocoa powder sometimes blueberry powder.

[Dannyboy51577]

Hey cousin, what brand do you eat? I could use an addition to get some calories in when im workin or cant get to a meal at a certain time. Even for being a big guy, ive always had problems, on or off, eating when im not hungry. When im not hungry i cant even jam food in my mouth sometimes, stomach just doesnt want it.

[zigzagzig]

Appetite, lol I can lend you some... Peanut butter protein bars come to mind, very calorie dense... Pancakes made on 2 eggs 2 large bananas 120g steel cut oats... Bulking foods check the diet section there should be many recipes. I think the peanut butter protein bars may be the most packed calories I have tried, minimal volume, I do them with dates, peanut butter, chocolate whey, ground flax seeds, sometimes cocoa powder sometimes blueberry powder.

Thanks for the tips. I'll try these this coming week. Right now I'm targeting 3000kcal on workout days. On the last two days I've done 3200 and I think it was too much at this stage (first week).

[zigzagzig]

Today was my second pin, first time mixing HCG and Test E. I've used a 23G 1.5" needle on my glute and as a newbie I was shaking too much. Nevertheless, it all went smooth. I got some PIP a couple hours ago, probably bc it is virgin muscle. It's very mild and it didn't hinder my leg workout of today. So far, I've noticed my heartbeat has increased a bit during night time and I've been burning some fat easier. On the other hand, no change in strength, maybe a better endurance... Weight is up by a pound, but it's probably statistically insignificant.

[Couchlockd]

don't mix those 2 together, your asking for problems.

also what solvents and such is in your test? will it harm the delicate HCG? will the test itself hurt it?

[zigzagzig]

don't mix those 2 together, your asking for problems.

also what solvents and such is in your test? will it harm the delicate HCG? will the test itself hurt it?

My HCG is in bac water. I've red other posts around with guys injecting all on the same syringe, then I decided to do it too. I don't know if it has negative consequences for both compounds. Does anyone know? Well, maybe I should change back to separate pins.

[zigzagzig]

Tomorrow starts my second week. I'm already filling a bit fuller and workouts are getting longer without fatigue. Following the advice of The Deadlifting Dog, I postponed the AI to start on the second week, so tomorrow will be my first oral intake. The point is that I have in hands Arimidex and Aromisin. After reading many threads about both I getting inclined to do Aromisin, since it can't crash E2. What do you guys think?

[cousinmuscles]

Aromasin shows no change in lipids or IGF... a little better.

[zigzagzig]

Aromasin shows no change in lipids or IGF... a little better.

I'll do Aromasin 12.5mg ED this week, then I may increase it to 25mg on the following one.

[Sampson1313]

I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your experience and good luck to you, I’m in a very similar situation but wanting to learn as much as possible at first and it’s been very interesting reading, sorry I don’t have a lot to add just didn’t want to read everything and not say thank you, thank

[zigzagzig]

I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your experience and good luck to you, I’m in a very similar situation but wanting to learn as much as possible at first and it’s been very interesting reading, sorry I don’t have a lot to add just didn’t want to read everything and not say thank you, thank

You're welcome. Yes, I'm sharing my experience, but I must thank the knowledge and goodwill of many members here that helped me address my concerns so far. I'm glad I could also help you.

[Dannyboy51577]

Always good to see guys results and experiences. It helps in alot of ways, especially with guys that come in after you, they can see the progress from the start of someone that was in their shoes

[zigzagzig]

I'm in the second week and so far my weight is up just by 3lbs. Despite the small increase, I'm indeed feeling fuller, less body fat, a bit of strength improvement, and a significant increase in endurance. My macros on workout days are currently at 350g C, 300g P, and 70g F (~3200cal). On non-workout days I do ~2700 cal. I'm very sensitive to fat intakes and to night carb intakes. I increased those for some days and I got much of fat. I compensated it increasing my warm up cardio to 20 min and added an after-workout of 15min. Cardio makes me feel much better, but I need some fine-tuning on this so that it does not hinder gains.

I've red some guys did on cycle some fasted cardio in the morning to shed extra fat. Twice a week. Do you think it makes sense to do that in my case (while increasing day carbs)?

[zigzagzig]

Yesterday, I did my 5th pin. It was my first on the deltoid. At first, I was a bit nervous because the 1" needle on it looked like I was going too deep, but in the end it went fine. The PIP was very mild and it is already fading. Well, I'm starting my 3rd week and despite some minor improvements, my weight is up just by 3 lbs. I've noticed that the average kick in week is around the 5th, so I'm not yet that worried. On the other hand, the most pronounced side effect is that my face skin is much more oily, though no acne so far.
Now I understand why some guys are keen to front load with some Dbol or Test P.