clomid + aromasin = bottomed out E2 feeling OR natural test production and feel good

[petemitchell30]

Talking on cycle here:

Its my understanding that clomid doesn't decrease estrogen levels, but blocks them from certain receptors. The benefits of this include increased natural test production, and decreased chance of gyno.

I am interested in the the increased natural test production. I can't dial my estrogen in with hcg, so I've been looking into clomid to keep my natural test production up on cycle.

My question is this, if you dial in your estrogen with aromasin, and add clomid, since clomid does not actually decrease the amount of estrogen in your body, would taking the two together give you the same side effects as having bottomed out estrogen (tired, ED etc.)?

OR

Because your estrogen level is actually within range (dialed in by aromasin) would taking the two together allow you to produce test naturally, as well as have the feeling of your estrogen being within range?

[cousinmuscles]

Clomid on cycle? You mean on a cycle of AAS; the effects of clomid will be for the most part negated. I remember one study showing SERMS had a minimal impact on testosterone production during steroid use.! The HCG increased your test which aromatized to estrogen. Clomid will do the same thing for the same amount of test it would increase, same ratio.

[petemitchell30]

Clomid on cycle? You mean on a cycle of AAS; the effects of clomid will be for the most part negated. I remember one study showing SERMS had a minimal impact on testosterone production during steroid use.! The HCG increased your test which aromatized to estrogen. Clomid will do the same thing for the same amount of test it would increase, same ratio.

Ive read where aromasin and anastrozole dont prevent hcg from aromatizing into estrogen.....regardless

If i took aromadin and clomid concurrently would it make me feel as if my estrogen had gone too low(ed, lethargic etc....)????

[cousinmuscles]

Ive read where aromasin and anastrozole dont prevent hcg from aromatizing into estrogen.....regardless

If i took aromadin and clomid concurrently would it make me feel as if my estrogen had gone too low(ed, lethargic etc....)????

HCG doesn't aromatize itself. You have aromatase (the enzyme that breaks down and converts testosterone into estrogen) all over your body. AIs inactivate or kill this enzyme in most tissues. It's the extra testosterone from the HCG that will increase estrogen. If you dialed in your AI with a particular dose of test, you will have to dial it in again if you increase your test (through HCG).

The more stuff you use the more you overcomplicate things. What's causing your ED and lethargy? Could be a million things

[kelkel]

My question is this, if you dial in your estrogen with aromasin, and add clomid, since clomid does not actually decrease the amount of estrogen in your body, would taking the two together give you the same side effects as having bottomed out estrogen (tired, ED etc.)?

OR

Because your estrogen level is actually within range (dialed in by aromasin) would taking the two together allow you to produce test naturally, as well as have the feeling of your estrogen being within range?

Clomid will do nothing for you on cycle in the presence of exogenous testosterone.

[petemitchell30]

Clomid will do nothing for you on cycle in the presence of exogenous testosterone.

Thanks for answering the question Kel.

Cousinmuscles - I'm aware that hcg doesn't aromatize, re-reading what I wrote I didn't articulate my thought very well. I have read that AI's do nothing to prevent the ultimate aromatization that occurs from HCG (I believe the reasons cited--but admittedly I'm not certain, had something to do with WHERE HCG caused aromitization to occur). There is obviously literature that contradicts this, but this theory best explains what I experience when I take HCG.

When taking 250 HCG along with 200mg Test cyp per week, 25mg of scripted aromasin did not prevent me from bloating and getting ED. When I had my e2 tested, it was high (70's). For comparative purposes, in my body, 25mg a day of scripted aromasin is enough to keep my e2 levels in the low 20's when running 1g of test cyp per week.

I'm not a scientist, but at least in my experience, AI's didn't prevent HCG from drastically elevating my estrogen levels.

[cousinmuscles]

Thanks for answering the question Kel.

Cousinmuscles - I'm aware that hcg doesn't aromatize, re-reading what I wrote I didn't articulate my thought very well. I have read that AI's do nothing to prevent the ultimate aromatization that occurs from HCG (I believe the reasons cited--but admittedly I'm not certain, had something to do with WHERE HCG caused aromitization to occur). There is obviously literature that contradicts this, but this theory best explains what I experience when I take HCG.

When taking 250 HCG along with 200mg Test cyp per week, 25mg of scripted aromasin did not prevent me from bloating and getting ED. When I had my e2 tested, it was high (70's). For comparative purposes, in my body, 25mg a day of scripted aromasin is enough to keep my e2 levels in the low 20's when running 1g of test cyp per week.

I'm not a scientist, but at least in my experience, AI's didn't prevent HCG from drastically elevating my estrogen levels.

Sounds interesting though something isn't right about what you are describing (250 iu HCG doing that) no offense but I'm not buying it :P. AIs don't reach all tissues, and some AIs reach the brain and increase testosterone production a lot while others not so much. HCG increases intratesticular testosterone and thus intratesticular estrogen but that is all the info I have managed to find regarding this. Keep in mind if you add HCG on a high TRT dose you should reduce the TRT dose. HCG will increase T just a little (and E2 proportionally).

[kelkel]

Cousin is on point with ITT and ITE. Not all of the ITE is controllable via an AI.
Also agree that it doesn't seem possible that 250 IU's is causing the issue.
Are all testing parameters equal? BW pulled exactly the same time, etc? Proper E2 assay?
Reducing the T dose will help. It is high end for TRT. Other than that do the math and lower your HCG into smaller daily shots.

[petemitchell30]

Sounds interesting though something isn't right about what you are describing (250 iu HCG doing that) no offense but I'm not buying it :P. AIs don't reach all tissues, and some AIs reach the brain and increase testosterone production a lot while others not so much. HCG increases intratesticular testosterone and thus intratesticular estrogen but that is all the info I have managed to find regarding this. Keep in mind if you add HCG on a high TRT dose you should reduce the TRT dose. HCG will increase T just a little (and E2 proportionally).

"HCG increases intratesticular testicular testosterone and thus intratesticular estrogen" is what I was reading. I can't remember the actual literature citation, but the basic gist of it was that AI's don't prevent intratesticular aromatization. Whether this is true or not, who knows.

Kel, full disclosure, I experienced this a while back, so I can't be sure if the time bloods were pulled were the same etc... Also, I misstated the dosage of HCG, the dosage I was taking was 250 3X a week. But all the other testing parameters were consistent, and the test was the e2 assay. E2 levels were 20's or 30's, I added HCG, subsequently bloated like a toad, and my dick shriveled up and went limp. I began taking aromasin, increasing the dosage all the way up to 25mg ED, still had high e2 symptoms but thought, "no way, this can't be e2 related if I'm taking 25mg ED of aromasin." Got bloods, sure enough, that was the problem. Stopped taking HCG, problem went away.

Been scared of HCG since. I am looking to get my natural test production back (as much as possible) while on cycle....so if you guys have suggestions they would be much appreciated.