Pct or not to pct?

[MrRusty]

Hi folks

Stats first:
45yr young male
15 years lifting
200lbs
5.9inches
Ex powerlifter

Finished first cycle...
350 Test E for 12 weeks
Gained 10kg (i'm british!) Not too fluffy either

I did have my bloodwork done 4 times. Pre cycle, 2 mid cycle and 1 post cycle just before pct. This enabled me to correlate my emotions/gains and general well being with what my body was telling me. Especially as it was my first.

My last test results came back with normal
Test and slightly low E. Kidney, Liver etc fine, lipids finish. High Chol HDL Ratio but expected that and will come down.

Taking GW - a staple for me have done throughout.

My question is....
If i have slightly low E and normal Test then should i PCT at all!

I need my E to come up a bit - currently 30 pmol/L. Test is 9.65 nmol/L which is pretty much what it was before i started.

Very happy to do it but i feel good. Kept a lot of size. Sexual appetite is good. Pretty much what u would expect from seeing my last results.

My next cycle will be at least 8 weeks from now as i am already 17 weeks into this one.

Many thanks

What do you think?


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[kelkel]

Well, 9.65 nmol puts you at about 275 ng/dl. Which is basically low total T.
If this level of T correlates to what you were pre cycle then why bother with pct. What you need is TRT.
Youe E is low due to your test being low. E follows T.
How long after finishing this cycle was the blood work done?
Did you happen to test your LH/FSH levels pre and post?

[MrRusty]

Thanks for that. The report states the 'normal' ranges which i have been referring too which i perhaps incorrectly think is ok.

Here is my before and after results for hormones

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[MrRusty]

Lh and FSH results were not included in thr report?

I assume my doctor wont see me as requirement for TRT with either of these results.

So no PCT then...?

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[kelkel]

Well, "before" you were in the low 500's, now you're 275 ish and hopefully rising.
You did not answer how long post cycle the blood work was pulled?
LH & FSH indicate pituitary function and can show where an issue lies such as:

High LH/FSH and low T = testicular issue (primary)
Low LH/FSH and low T = pituitary issue (secondary)
There can be combination of both

At 275 ish TRT should be considered imho. Remember it's not all about numbers here. Re numbers, free T is far more important as FT is what works for us. Total T really is irrelevant. Considering TRT should be based on how you feel along with appropriate blood work.

Regarding running pct. I'd need to know how long post cycle it actually is as it may be prudent to simply wait another month after the most recent blood work and check your levels again to see if it's still rising. If you're in the states you can probably do this yourself via sources such as www.discountedlabs.com and similar. Most states (but not all) allow this and it rather cheap. They have packages set up for post pct, etc. and you use normal labs such as Labcorp.

[MrRusty]

Thanks! Very detailed reply.

Its been 5 weeks since last pin.

I can get my LH and FSH here in the Uk done for around £110.

Thats what i am wondering to check it in a month and see if its rising. If ita not could you recommend a suit PCT for my situation as surely i wouldnt need any AIs or SERMs. I had planned the usual Clomid, Nova, Aromasin etc but not sure now with E so low.

Planning on getting back on a cycle in about 8 weeks too if all bloods check out.

Thanks

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[MrRusty]

In addition. At this stage...should i be concentrating on testing my LH and FSH hormonal levels instead of T and E or should i get my whole blood work done?

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[Couchlockd]

In addition. At this stage...should i be concentrating on testing my LH and FSH hormonal levels instead of T and E or should i get my whole blood work done?

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Pct unless you plan on being in trt Indefinitely

[kelkel]

Ok, so 5 weeks since last pin. You normally would not start pct until two weeks or more post cycle to allow the exogenous test to clear your system. That said, since it's now been 5 weeks total and your T is at 275 it's really not that shabby to be honest. Personally I'd always recommend pct as well as HCG during your cycle to give yourself an optimal chance of maximizing recovery, but it does not mean that you won't get there in time without it.

Your decision is whether you wait a bit more, check levels and if still rising possible leave things alone, or initiate a normal pct as outlined in the Successful First Cycle sticky thread at the top of this forum. PCT always involves serms, normally both clomid and nolva working synergistically. You do not need AI's.

Re LH/FSH, it's always good to know their levels both pre and post pct. It helps determine recovery.

I'd suggest testing:

Total T
Free T
Sensitive E2 Assay if available
LH
FSH
CBC
CMP

More if possible.

[The God Himself]

Go under PCT. Better safe than sorry

[kelkel]

Go under PCT. Better safe than sorry

It surely can't hurt!

[MrRusty]

Ok thank thats great advice!

My main concern is low E as i have suffered that during my cycle after too high a dose of AI which i corrected. It wasnt pretty and worse than when it was too high early in my cycle. Rather have high E than low any day.

I figured if i waited my Test may increase and then if not significantly then consider TRT.

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[MrRusty]

It surely can't hurt!

Well i figured it could continue to lower my E so yes i guess it could?

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[The God Himself]

Well i figured it could continue to lower my E so yes i guess it could?

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Well, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but nolva doesn’t lower your E, rather it prevents E from being attached to certain receptors.
Since PCT will stimulate your Test production, and T converts to E when no AI is present, it will take your estrogen to the normal levels from low levels.
You’ll most certainly benefit from PCT, imho.

[MrRusty]

Well, someone correct me if I’m wrong, but nolva doesn’t lower your E, rather it prevents E from being attached to certain receptors.
Since PCT will stimulate your Test production, and T converts to E when no AI is present, it will take your estrogen to the normal levels from low levels.
You’ll most certainly benefit from PCT, imho.

Indeed. You are right. Thanks for that. Agreed. So perhaps PCT is best as belt and braces.

This is my original planned PCT


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[The God Himself]

Indeed. You are right. Thanks for that. Agreed. So perhaps PCT is best as belt and braces.

This is my original planned PCT


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I would drop the aromasin on PCT, you don’t need it, with tamoxifen you already protect yourself against gyno. Aromasin will lower your E levels too.
Anyway I’m sure kelkel has much more knowledge and experience than me, so wait for his response before taking my advices.

[Couchlockd]

I would drop the aromasin on PCT, you don’t need it, with tamoxifen you already protect yourself against gyno. Aromasin will lower your E levels too.
Anyway I’m sure kelkel has much more knowledge and experience than me, so wait for his response before taking my advices.

Point of pct is to get hormones stable again.

An AI will supress estrogen which is not what we want.

The clomid and nolva will kick start your hpta,

The use if nolva is primarily for HPTA restart, blocking breast tissue receptors is secondary function of the drug, and not the reason it's used in pct.

[kelkel]

I would drop the aromasin on PCT, you don’t need it, with tamoxifen you already protect yourself against gyno. Aromasin will lower your E levels too.
Anyway I’m sure kelkel has much more knowledge and experience than me, so wait for his response before taking my advices.

No need. You and couchlockd handled it perfectly. Thanks!

[MrRusty]

Point of pct is to get hormones stable again.

An AI will supress estrogen which is not what we want.

The clomid and nolva will kick start your hpta,

The use if nolva is primarily for HPTA restart, blocking breast tissue receptors is secondary function of the drug, and not the reason it's used in pct.

Thank you! Good point well made!

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[MrRusty]

I would drop the aromasin on PCT, you don’t need it, with tamoxifen you already protect yourself against gyno. Aromasin will lower your E levels too.
Anyway I’m sure kelkel has much more knowledge and experience than me, so wait for his response before taking my advices.

Thanks for your advice :-)

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