Question about time off in between cycles

[jackfrost88]

Hey, so the standard advice you hear is time off + PCT = time off. Additionally, the more times you cycle the greater likelihood that you will not recover (especially as you get older) and will need TRT.

My question is, when your blood work shows a "full" recovery, and you hop back on cycle why would the chances of not getting your natural test back be increased? It must be that you are actually not fully recovered (whether blood work shows it or not). There is very little research I can find on this issue.

Can anyone explain a) if this is true b) why would this be? c) are there any studies on the issue that show how this may be?

Could it just be as we get older our testosterone falls anyways and this theory applied to a 40 year old man for example just shows a natural decline that would have happened anyway separate from steroids?

Thanks in advance!

[fit_deskjocky]

Hey, so the standard advice you hear is time off + PCT = time off. Additionally, the more times you cycle the greater likelihood that you will not recover (especially as you get older) and will need TRT.

My question is, when your blood work shows a "full" recovery, and you hop back on cycle why would the chances of not getting your natural test back be increased? It must be that you are actually not fully recovered (whether blood work shows it or not). There is very little research I can find on this issue.

Can anyone explain a) if this is true b) why would this be? c) are there any studies on the issue that show how this may be?

Could it just be as we get older our testosterone falls anyways and this theory applied to a 40 year old man for example just shows a natural decline that would have happened anyway separate from steroids?

Thanks in advance!

The Time on+ester clear+PCT window is just a good rule of thumb. Obviously the younger you are the quicker and easier it is to recover for most but that doesn't mean you should jump back on a cycle as soon as your BW shows recovery. Exogenous hormones are a big shock to your HPTA and the longer the cycle, the longer the strain on it.

You get blood work 6-8 weeks post PCT to check for full recovery or atleast things are moving in that direction. However as you age that pre-cycle BW should show a decline in Testosterone after 30, PCT is atleast trying to get you back to that baseline. With the fact that most should only get 1 to 2 cycles a year in, every pre-cycle blood should show that decrease from the previous year. I'm not sure you will readily find any studies, however it is a known fact that the majority of bodybuilders are on TRT. I imagine one day in order to keep up with the demands of a society and longer life, every male will be on TRT into his 80s.

[< <Samson> >]

I have been around "this" for a while now - And - Guy's who stay in the lifestyle don't really come off

What, u think PCT meds are good for your body?




Dropping to a TRT dose for a semi extended period of time just seems like the "best" idea if you are planning to ho back on even semi closely back to back




Most come on & just stay on - my .o2

[Windex]

like previously mentioned, most guys eventually end up on TRT one way or the other.

TRT is a bit of a headache in Canada, so something to keep in mind.

[jackfrost88]

Thanks for replies - I guess my question was if the decline after 30, as people have mentioned, is due to cycling (assuming done responsibly) or a natural decline that would have occurred anyways. If it is due to steroids is there any research backing this up? Or is it all done anecdotally.

There are pros that swear their natural test levels are normal when coming off despite running 20 week long hard contest prep drug cycles throughout their careers. Each person is obviously different but this information is all over the place and its hard to understand what to expect if continuing to cycle.

[SOL!D5NAK3]

IMO at least go off for 8 weeks, you will lose some weight and sex drive and etc, but if you know that its good for you healthwise you can live with it. i'm coming off of a pretty long cycle (it was a prep) and i know it is going to be hell but IMO it is healthier this way.

[Windex]

Thanks for replies - I guess my question was if the decline after 30, as people have mentioned, is due to cycling (assuming done responsibly) or a natural decline that would have occurred anyways. If it is due to steroids is there any research backing this up? Or is it all done anecdotally.

There are pros that swear their natural test levels are normal when coming off despite running 20 week long hard contest prep drug cycles throughout their careers. Each person is obviously different but this information is all over the place and its hard to understand what to expect if continuing to cycle.

Every male has their testosterone levels naturally decrease as they age, regardless of whether or not they weightlift or exercise. It's just part of getting older and the natural degradation of the human body.

You should take everything with a grain of salt when it comes to what other people preach as it pertains to fitness and steroids. Professionals are paid to say certain things. Also pros are genetic abnormalities, that's why they were able to become pro in the first place, so what they do is completely irrelevant for the average cycling gym guy.


What exactly is your concern? If your fear is ending up on TRT and don't want to take that risk then you shouldn't cycle. You can't really preconceive any hard set expectations because like you said in the same paragraph everybodies body is different.

[jackfrost88]

Every male has their testosterone levels naturally decrease as they age, regardless of whether or not they weightlift or exercise. It's just part of getting older and the natural degradation of the human body.

You should take everything with a grain of salt when it comes to what other people preach as it pertains to fitness and steroids. Professionals are paid to say certain things. Also pros are genetic abnormalities, that's why they were able to become pro in the first place, so what they do is completely irrelevant for the average cycling gym guy.


What exactly is your concern? If your fear is ending up on TRT and don't want to take that risk then you shouldn't cycle. You can't really preconceive any hard set expectations because like you said in the same paragraph everybodies body is different.

I am trying to clarify if the decrease in testosterone resulting from steroids is caused by the drugs themselves or if it is a natural decline - there is limited research regarding whether they are correlated or steroids cause this. Also I am talking about lighter cycles such as test only or less harsh compounds for 12 weeks not staying on for extended periods with 19nors etc.

I am not worried about TRT if it is later on if I would need it anyways (I am turning 31). But definitely closer to 40

Basically trying to understand the relation since certain people say they recover fully, others say that they do one test cycle and it caused them to need TRT for life. There is really no clear reason for this from what I can tell and trying to figure out why. People just say "your HPTA hasn't recovered" but really they have no idea and are just saying what they heard. Trying to get more specific as to the reason if anyone knows.

I know its kind of convoluted and there might not be a clear answer out there but wanted to see if anyone knew! Thanks.

[Windex]

I am trying to clarify if the decrease in testosterone resulting from steroids is caused by the drugs themselves or if it is a natural decline - there is limited research regarding whether they are correlated or steroids cause this. Also I am talking about lighter cycles such as test only or less harsh compounds for 12 weeks not staying on for extended periods with 19nors etc.

I am not worried about TRT if it is later on if I would need it anyways (I am turning 31). But definitely closer to 40

Basically trying to understand the relation since certain people say they recover fully, others say that they do one test cycle and it caused them to need TRT for life. There is really no clear reason for this from what I can tell and trying to figure out why. People just say "your HPTA hasn't recovered" but really they have no idea and are just saying what they heard. Trying to get more specific as to the reason if anyone knows.

I know its kind of convoluted and there might not be a clear answer out there but wanted to see if anyone knew! Thanks.

There isn't a black and white answer - you won't find studies from cycle dosages of gear because a Doctor would lose their lisence prescribing 600mg of test. Plus, several steroids weren't even designed for fitness or weightlifting. Tren was created for cattle feeding. EQ was invented for horses. Anadrol was invented for anemia. Insulin for diabetes and so on.

It's just happenstance that "we" found PCT drugs for recovery in the first place. Nolva was made to treat breast cancer.

Also, just because someone says they recover fully means nothing out of context. Someone could go for blood work, have levels be in range (which are often large ranges to begin with), call the office for results, then the doctor or doctors office tells them their levels are normal. Many people interpret this as fully recovering even though they never even see the blood work results. Additionally, people often don't get a complete panel done. So they might test for 90% of the required which comes back fine and miss the other 10%.

There's also the matter of incompetence - how many people start a post with Ive done a lot of research and want to do this cycle, and their proposed plan is a complete train wreck. How many people can actually explain for example the pharmacology of Nolvadex and Clomid, rather than just parrot they are used in PCT?

The idea of a "light or safe" cycle is a misconception and oxymoron. Your endocrine system producing the respective hormones is shut down 100%. The easiest way to illustrate this is with TRT - minimum dose required to function and still 0 FSH and LH production, which is why there is HCG.

Decreasing Test levels from aging is known information - that's just how the male body works. The impact, velocity, and gradient to which steroids affect Test levels is impossible to definitively prove because of so many factors/variables.

[jackfrost88]

There isn't a black and white answer - you won't find studies from cycle dosages of gear because a Doctor would lose their lisence prescribing 600mg of test. Plus, several steroids weren't even designed for fitness or weightlifting. Tren was created for cattle feeding. EQ was invented for horses. Anadrol was invented for anemia. Insulin for diabetes and so on.

It's just happenstance that "we" found PCT drugs for recovery in the first place. Nolva was made to treat breast cancer.

Also, just because someone says they recover fully means nothing out of context. Someone could go for blood work, have levels be in range (which are often large ranges to begin with), call the office for results, then the doctor or doctors office tells them their levels are normal. Many people interpret this as fully recovering even though they never even see the blood work results. Additionally, people often don't get a complete panel done. So they might test for 90% of the required which comes back fine and miss the other 10%.

There's also the matter of incompetence - how many people start a post with Ive done a lot of research and want to do this cycle, and their proposed plan is a complete train wreck. How many people can actually explain for example the pharmacology of Nolvadex and Clomid, rather than just parrot they are used in PCT?

The idea of a "light or safe" cycle is a misconception and oxymoron. Your endocrine system producing the respective hormones is shut down 100%. The easiest way to illustrate this is with TRT - minimum dose required to function and still 0 FSH and LH production, which is why there is HCG.

Decreasing Test levels from aging is known information - that's just how the male body works. The impact, velocity, and gradient to which steroids affect Test levels is impossible to definitively prove because of so many factors/variables.

Alright thanks. Would explain why there isn't an abundance of information out there. Would be nice to have a study done where a large group of healthy males 20-35 are given 500mg of test and monitored after for some test results haha.

[< <Samson> >]

It'd be even more nice if could get juice prescribed like they still prescribe Phentemine


Asking too much - I know

[AlphaMindz]

I'll add my two cents...As SolidSnake mentioned I also think it's a good idea to come off once or twice a year for about 8 weeks, EVEN if you're on trt....if you're bodybuilding that is. If you're just a regular guy on trt then there's no reason to come off, but if you're a body builder and running cycles then IMO it's a good idea to come off completely (dealing with some low t sides for a few weeks) so the androgen receptors can resensitize which will allow the steroids to work much better when you get back on.

I recently did a "reset" where I took a minimal dose of only testosterone for about 7 weeks to give my body a break from the other compounds but also to attempt to allow my receptors to up regulate and respond better to the drugs for my next run. I did respond well when I upped my dose of test again and added in other compounds, but next time I'm going to come off completely because I've heard many cases of people coming off completely for 8 weeks and when they got back on their body "exploded" in response to the drugs being reintroduced...

Although I am making decent gains, I'd hardly say my body "exploded" with gains when I started back up, and that's prob cause I didn't come off COMPLETELY.

This is a concept I've only recently come across. I was under the impression that blasting and cruising was the way to go (which is still what I do) except I hadn't entertained the idea of coming off completely (as I am on trt) because I didn't wanna lose muscle. According to the anecdotal evidence I've seen and heard people discuss, it seems that 8 weeks off is not enough time to lose muscle and the way the body responds to the drugs when we go back on seems to really make it something I'm interested in exploring myself.

The take away is that yes, most men will likely need trt at some point in their lives and using AAS will surely speed up "andropause" as using steroids taxes the HPTA and over time the body will produce less and less testosterone on its own. HOWEVER, like Windex said, there is no real research so that's really just my opinion, although it IS an opinion based on many real life examples (anecdotal evidence)...Furthermore, some men, even men who were bodybuilders and used steroids for many years, will eventually recover their natural levels and won't need trt lol... So yeah, we don't really know. Ultimately, every human body is different and we should go into this with full knowledge and acceptance of the possible repercussions.

Last point...I believe that a HUGE factor as to why some men will need trt and others won't (aside from genetics and gear usage) is diet and lifestyle. A man over 40 who eats healthy, gets all his vitamins and minerals, gets enough vitamin D, gets enough EFA's, and trains on a regular basis is FAR more likely to maintain healthy testosterone levels than a man who doesn't do those things or only does some of those things.

Guess that was a bit more than two cents lol, but hopefully that sheds a little more light on the topic and didn't confuse matters too much!

Be safe, make gains, and enjoy life!

[jackfrost88]

I'll add my two cents...As SolidSnake mentioned I also think it's a good idea to come off once or twice a year for about 8 weeks, EVEN if you're on trt....if you're bodybuilding that is. If you're just a regular guy on trt then there's no reason to come off, but if you're a body builder and running cycles then IMO it's a good idea to come off completely (dealing with some low t sides for a few weeks) so the androgen receptors can resensitize which will allow the steroids to work much better when you get back on.

I recently did a "reset" where I took a minimal dose of only testosterone for about 7 weeks to give my body a break from the other compounds but also to attempt to allow my receptors to up regulate and respond better to the drugs for my next run. I did respond well when I upped my dose of test again and added in other compounds, but next time I'm going to come off completely because I've heard many cases of people coming off completely for 8 weeks and when they got back on their body "exploded" in response to the drugs being reintroduced...

Although I am making decent gains, I'd hardly say my body "exploded" with gains when I started back up, and that's prob cause I didn't come off COMPLETELY.

This is a concept I've only recently come across. I was under the impression that blasting and cruising was the way to go (which is still what I do) except I hadn't entertained the idea of coming off completely (as I am on trt) because I didn't wanna lose muscle. According to the anecdotal evidence I've seen and heard people discuss, it seems that 8 weeks off is not enough time to lose muscle and the way the body responds to the drugs when we go back on seems to really make it something I'm interested in exploring myself.

The take away is that yes, most men will likely need trt at some point in their lives and using AAS will surely speed up "andropause" as using steroids taxes the HPTA and over time the body will produce less and less testosterone on its own. HOWEVER, like Windex said, there is no real research so that's really just my opinion, although it IS an opinion based on many real life examples (anecdotal evidence)...Furthermore, some men, even men who were bodybuilders and used steroids for many years, will eventually recover their natural levels and won't need trt lol... So yeah, we don't really know. Ultimately, every human body is different and we should go into this with full knowledge and acceptance of the possible repercussions.

Last point...I believe that a HUGE factor as to why some men will need trt and others won't (aside from genetics and gear usage) is diet and lifestyle. A man over 40 who eats healthy, gets all his vitamins and minerals, gets enough vitamin D, gets enough EFA's, and trains on a regular basis is FAR more likely to maintain healthy testosterone levels than a man who doesn't do those things or only does some of those things.

Guess that was a bit more than two cents lol, but hopefully that sheds a little more light on the topic and didn't confuse matters too much!

Be safe, make gains, and enjoy life!

Thanks for the thoughts, some good info. Again just going on anecdotal evidence makes it a bit of a guessing game.

[Chicagotarsier]

My 2 cents

Coming off cycle allows for proper sleep waves to occur. Sleep is more important to gains than any other factor. A normal human living a sedintary lifestyle needs 8-9 hours a night to hit all his sleep cycles. A stressed body requires more cycles and sleep is not as easy when stressed. Do you ever get 12 hours of sleep? Sleep apnea sides on cycle disappear off cycle.

[waltr64]

There is a lot of good advice here, I will just add that yes as most men age their testosterone naturally declines. There have been some European studies that suggest for optional health and aging that 600 mg per week of test is best but personally I find 500 mg to be my sweet spot and I do still cycle down or off a couple of times a year. I also have recently added Proviron and it makes me feel even better.

[AlphaMindz]

There is a lot of good advice here, I will just add that yes as most men age their testosterone naturally declines. There have been some European studies that suggest for optional health and aging that 600 mg per week of test is best but personally I find 500 mg to be my sweet spot and I do still cycle down or off a couple of times a year. I also have recently added Proviron and it makes me feel even better.

Big fan of proviron. It's a great addition and allows the test to work more efficiently by binding to SHBG and getting it out of the way for more free test to roam around!