Crusing at TRT doses vs PCT?

[sleepstalker]

Hi all, so as a dude in his 30s I am considering heading to a trt clinic to have a DOCTOR examine me if I need trt but when it comes to the muscle world of health and using test for a legitimate medical reason, I had a few questions. In your opinion, the experienced user does blasting test then doing a trt dose better than doing a pct by coming completely off? I hear people say that taking test then doing a pct one will lose all their gains and ones test levels will plummet. Where as doing a blast with a trt(normal healthy dose) will keep gains? It seems to me that doing pct I would prefer as not to rely on exogenous test and to give the body a break to make one's own test. Not sure if the negative feedback loop would be thrown off that much based on a lowest possible dose needed for the purpose. Also if one hasn't reached their genetic potential how can they lose the muscle? Also HCG during blast or after? Thanks in advance!

[Marcus G]

Hi all, so as a dude in his 30s I am considering heading to a trt clinic to have a DOCTOR examine me if I need trt but when it comes to the muscle world of health and using test for a legitimate medical reason, I had a few questions. In your opinion, the experienced user does blasting test then doing a trt dose better than doing a pct by coming completely off? I hear people say that taking test then doing a pct one will lose all their gains and ones test levels will plummet. Where as doing a blast with a trt(normal healthy dose) will keep gains? It seems to me that doing pct I would prefer as not to rely on exogenous test and to give the body a break to make one's own test. Not sure if the negative feedback loop would be thrown off that much based on a lowest possible dose needed for the purpose. Also if one hasn't reached their genetic potential how can they lose the muscle? Thanks in advance!

It depends on how often you plan on cycling if you plan doing 1-2 cycles every 12 month then a coming off and doing a PCT would work fine if done properly however if you plan on competing or doing multiple cycles then perhaps a trt dose would be best suited for that situation. Another thing to take into consideration is that when people come off cycle they usually lose a lot of weight this is mostly from glycogen retention rather than actual muscle mass but they only see it as gains. If you do a 10 week cycle and gain 20ibs I'd say only around 30-40% is actual lean muscle the rest is water weather that be sun q or intracellular...

[AlphaMindz]

Great question man, and I'm glad you're considering these things before just blindly hopping on trt. This is my take on it...

It depends on what your goals are. If you're just trying to attain some personal fitness or physique goals then IMO one should come off after each run and focus on recovering to maintain normal testicular function.

If you want to be a competitive bodybuilder then IMO one cannot afford the time off between cycles because although some gains can be held onto, a lot of the gains will fade over time and if one is trying to get to a professional level then that is a very inefficient approach to using steroids .

In the latter case, it is more efficient to blast and cruise OR blast and come off completely BUT not for the same length of time that the cycle was. The whole time on = time off + pct does NOT apply to professional bodybuilders. If everyone followed that protocol there would be no professional bodybuilders lol. Or maybe there would be but the biggest guys would look like physique competitors! One cannot get to classic physique or straight bodybuilding classes by staying off for as long as they were on, and anyone telling people that is lying..straight up!

Now, I am NOT saying that everyone should just stay on gear year round and throw caution to the wind. Please don't mistake what I'm saying. For most people who are using steroids to achieve personal goals, I believe they should cycle as safely as possible which IS doing a pct and staying off for at least the amount of time you were on.

In your particular case, I would go ahead and see what your levels currently are at your age, and based on that reading you can decide whether or not trt may be a good option. If your levels are above 4-500 then you can prob build plenty of muscle at that level. If you don't have symptoms of low t and you're not trying to be a bodybuilder then I'd recommend cycling like "normal" people as that is the safest way, not only for your HPTA, but also your cholesterol, triglycerides, hematocrit, and various other factors that affect health.

Hope this helps and let us know what you decide to do.

[sleepstalker]

It depends on how often you plan on cycling if you plan doing 1-2 cycles every 12 month then a coming off and doing a PCT would work fine if done properly however if you plan on competing or doing multiple cycles then perhaps a trt dose would be best suited for that situation.

Thank you for the reply. Yeah not sure if I ever plan on competing. I want to say no. I am more concerned with overall health and looking aesthetic. 2 cycles every twelve months sounds low but coming off seems like a good thing. But if coming off didn't work I would consider staying on at a trt dose not a bodybuilding dose, with respect to my goals. But yeah I am wondering how much muscle can be grown with 2 cycles in a year. Not really a race, as physique is an illusion. The more fatloss one has, the more they will see the lines and cuts. So building a decent amount of muscle, much smaller than ordinary people think I feel would make a dramatic difference versus taking everything under the sun. It seems to me that for my goals if given the opportunity, taking the minimum required doses then coming off seems better, cheaper, effective and healthier.

[GearHeaded]

IF your main goal and focus is bodybuilding , then blasting and cruising is going to be the most optimal for that goal. things are much more optimized when your on a TRT dose of test and then you have the ability to blast different compound and cycles at will based on goals, diet changes and training.
- having said that, keep in mind that this concept is a big commitment as there is a possibility that after doing this for years you may want to come off of all the gear but you may still need to be on TRT

If you want to put your HPTA health at the top of your priority list and do your best to maintain natty function when off cycle, the PCT is the way to go . BUT you need to run proper PCT protocols to optimize it and run cycles that are designed with PCT in mind. simply blasting some nolva and clomid after your cycle is not an optimized PCT. . . most of what you read about PCT online is not optimized for bodybuilding purposes (its just basic PCT for guys that do a cycle or two a year or for newb AAS users). if you want to go the PCT route but have it optimized for maximum gains then your cycle needs to be planned in phases and built and designed around the idea of recovering natty production (again you don't just blast a cycle and throw pct drugs in at the end).
I've not read every article online or every thread on steroids forums, but as of yet I have yet to see an optimized PCT for bodybuilding purposes laid out or given online (sure you see PCT recommendations all the time on forums but they are generic and far from optimal)


doing the standard , time on AAS = time off AAS and doing your generic PCT protocol is NOT going to be optimal for bodybuilding IF bodybuilding is your primary focus. but this standard is just fine for your basic gym rats doing a cycle or two a year.

you gotta decide your commitment level and how far you want to take things and go from there.

[Marcus G]

Thank you for the reply. Yeah not sure if I ever plan on competing. I want to say no. I am more concerned with overall health and looking aesthetic. 2 cycles every twelve months sounds low but coming off seems like a good thing. But if coming off didn't work I would consider staying on at a trt dose not a bodybuilding dose, with respect to my goals. But yeah I am wondering how much muscle can be grown with 2 cycles in a year. Not really a race, as physique is an illusion. The more fatloss one has, the more they will see the lines and cuts. So building a decent amount of muscle, much smaller than ordinary people think I feel would make a dramatic difference versus taking everything under the sun. It seems to me that for my goals if given the opportunity, taking the minimum required doses then coming off seems better, cheaper, effective and healthier.

It sounds like you've got your head screwed on the reason I gave such low number of cycles per year is because to come off cycle to do a PCT then get bloods to assess recovery takes roughly 4 weeks PCT then blood tests need to be done 6-8 weeks after so that'd be around 10-12 and you wouldn't want to jump straight back on after just recovering.

[sleepstalker]

Great question man, and I'm glad you're considering these things before just blindly hopping on trt. This is my take on it...

It depends on what your goals are. If you're just trying to attain some personal fitness or physique goals then IMO one should come off after each run and focus on recovering to maintain normal testicular function.

If you want to be a competitive bodybuilder then IMO one cannot afford the time off between cycles because although some gains can be held onto, a lot of the gains will fade over time and if one is trying to get to a professional level then that is a very inefficient approach to using steroids .

In the latter case, it is more efficient to blast and cruise OR blast and come off completely BUT not for the same length of time that the cycle was. The whole time on = time off + pct does NOT apply to professional bodybuilders. If everyone followed that protocol there would be no professional bodybuilders lol. Or maybe there would be but the biggest guys would look like physique competitors! One cannot get to classic physique or straight bodybuilding classes by staying off for as long as they were on, and anyone telling people that is lying..straight up!

Now, I am NOT saying that everyone should just stay on gear year round and throw caution to the wind. Please don't mistake what I'm saying. For most people who are using steroids to achieve personal goals, I believe they should cycle as safely as possible which IS doing a pct and staying off for at least the amount of time you were on.

In your particular case, I would go ahead and see what your levels currently are at your age, and based on that reading you can decide whether or not trt may be a good option. If your levels are above 4-500 then you can prob build plenty of muscle at that level. If you don't have symptoms of low t and you're not trying to be a bodybuilder then I'd recommend cycling like "normal" people as that is the safest way, not only for your HPTA, but also your cholesterol, triglycerides, hematocrit, and various other factors that affect health.

Hope this helps and let us know what you decide to do.

Thank you, I appreciate the response. I feel its inevitable for me. Based on my genetics and medical history. But yeah coming off seems like a healthy and responsible thing for now. I do prefer the classic or physique look like from the 60-70s. Just not sure for my body if that requires staying on (blasting and crusing). I really wonder if the greats really did abuse gear when it was still legal in the golden era.

[sleepstalker]

Yeah def not "bodybuilding" more physique/health. Bodybuilding these days, even physique guys can still be huge in size. 200+. I would prefer to build muscle and remain aesthetic (10% bodyfat), but any info on HCG throughout a cycle or best after a cycle?

[Marcus G]

Yeah def not "bodybuilding" more physique/health. Bodybuilding these days, even physique guys can still be huge in size. 200+. I would prefer to build muscle and remain aesthetic (10% bodyfat), but any info on HCG throughout a cycle or best after a cycle?

HCG should only be used whist on the cycle not after.

[sleepstalker]

The last thing as far as the drug ancillaries and I am aware one doesn't know until they test the blood but I assume and AI, dht inhibitor and prolactin inhibitor may be necessary while on cycle. To prevent those with the genetics for gyno, baldness and excess estrogen from occurring. I never heard of anyone using these before my time in the 70s but they were under doctors supervision so maybe and I do believe the more one takes the more one has to mitigate the side effects. So lower doses most likely might not show the effects with the moderate to higher doses but it depends, everyone is different.

[Marcus G]

The last thing as far as the drug ancillaries and I am aware one doesn't know until they test the blood but I assume and AI, dht inhibitor and prolactin inhibitor may be necessary while on cycle. To prevent those with the genetics for gyno, baldness and excess estrogen from occurring. I never heard of anyone using these before my time in the 70s but they were under doctors supervision so maybe and I do believe the more one takes the more one has to mitigate the side effects. So lower doses most likely might not show the effects with the moderate to higher doses but it depends, everyone is different.

AI should definitely be used as for DHT and prolactin inhibitors not usually needed.

[Windex]

Thank you, I appreciate the response. I feel its inevitable for me. Based on my genetics and medical history. But yeah coming off seems like a healthy and responsible thing for now. I do prefer the classic or physique look like from the 60-70s. Just not sure for my body if that requires staying on (blasting and crusing). I really wonder if the greats really did abuse gear when it was still legal in the golden era.

The pros from 80s and 90s that have openly talked about PEDs have also admitted to now being on TRT. Gear is maybe the last 5-10% of the equation especially more so if you just want a classic look.

Between diet, eca, ecy, clen and T3 you can get low body fat to have the hard 6pack look. You won't look like Arnold or Frank Zane, but you can get reasonably close (9-12% BF) and have a body to be proud of. It's the 4-7% body fat range that requires a pharmacy.

Going the blasting/cruising route greatly increases the chance of ending up on TRT as already mentioned. Here are some questions you need to ask yourself :

1 - Can you afford ending up on TRT? I'm not talking about this year or even over the next 10 years. It's a lifelong commitment. You are 30 now. Say you start TRT at 35 after continuous cycling. For the sake of easy math, assume $1000.00/year to be on TRT. Well at 65 if you go to retire you will have $30, 000.00 less to retire with. Maybe that makes the difference of retiring at 65 vs having to work until 70.

2 - Do you have any "world" goals that might interfere? Do you want to travel to europe ? backpack the mountains of Asia ? Live in a different country one day? These are still possible with TRT but added headaches.

3. What level of "risk" are you willing to accept? Life is full of surprises - life events, injuries, etc. If something happens and you can't train anymore and you are stuck on TRT - will that be something you can cope with ?

Make sure you consider all your options and give yourself a fair chance to consider the potential outcomes.

I think of it this way:

Marriage (in theory) is a lifelong commitment same as TRT. I wouldn't ask someone to marry me after a week and I didn't decide on TRT after a week either.

[GearHeaded]

The last thing as far as the drug ancillaries and I am aware one doesn't know until they test the blood but I assume and AI, dht inhibitor and prolactin inhibitor may be necessary while on cycle..

the key word here is "may be necessary" . you may have Aspirn in your medicine cabinet, there may be times that taking one 'may be' necessary . but you don't take one just for the hell of it cause you think you have to.

depending on goals of the cycle, a lot of ancillaries may not be needed at all (in fact some of these ancillaries can negatively effect your cycle and the goal and should NOT be taken).

IF you stack is well planned out then your need for ancillaries will be limited (example, if your goal is to put on muscle, you can easily design a stack that only elevates estrogen to a degree and an AI would not be needed, as limiting estrogen will hinder muscle growth).

The more you learn your body and confirm things with blood work , the more you'll know what you may or may not need.

having ancillaries on hand is always a good idea though... sure I can blast a gram of test and not need an AI at all (nor do I really want to even take one), but I sure as hell still have Letro on hand just in case

[GearHeaded]

AI should definitely be used as for DHT and prolactin inhibitors not usually needed.

Marcus, I can tell by your posts your a smart guy . question: What if your stack is this--
100mg a week test E
600mg a week masteron
20mg a day Superdrol
50mg a day Winny

would you definitely need an AI ?

I would say absolutely not, in fact an AI could cause issues. I'd only chance using an AI in such a stack if you were a few weeks out from a contest and only using the AI to crash estrogen and dry out that last little bit (but for normal optimal function an AI would cause problems).

just saying -- the ancillaries we use are all CONTEXT dependent and goal and person dependent . don't think we can just make blanket statements and say for certain wither something is 'needed'.

and one more point -- plenty of guys over the years prefer using SERMS for estrogen control and won't touch an AI . so for them AI's have never been needed

[Marcus G]

Marcus, I can tell by your posts your a smart guy . question: What if your stack is this--
100mg a week test E
600mg a week masteron
20mg a day Superdrol
50mg a day Winny

would you definitely need an AI ?

I would say absolutely not, in fact an AI could cause issues. I'd only chance using an AI in such a stack if you were a few weeks out from a contest and only using the AI to crash estrogen and dry out that last little bit (but for normal optimal function an AI would cause problems).

just saying -- the ancillaries we use are all CONTEXT dependent and goal and person dependent . don't think we can just make blanket statements and say for certain wither something is 'needed'.

and one more point -- plenty of guys over the years prefer using SERMS for estrogen control and won't touch an AI . so for them AI's have never been needed

I would partly agree yes in that cycle example an AI would most likely be detrimental. So I shall say in most cases an AI is nesesary however I don't agree with the people who say they use serms for estrogen control (not saying this is you) but serms only stop the estrogen binding to specific rectors sites such as clomid (the Brain) but the levels of estrogen are still elevated and thus cause numerous issues that I'm sure you already know of so there's no point me listing them out. But thanks for pointing that out you have a good eye.

[GearHeaded]

I would partly agree yes in that cycle example an AI would most likely be detrimental. So I shall say in most cases an AI is nesesary however I don't agree with the people who say they use serms for estrogen control (not saying this is you) but serms only stop the estrogen binding to specific rectors sites such as clomid (the Brain) but the levels of estrogen are still elevated and thus cause numerous issues that I'm sure you already know of so there's no point me listing them out. But thanks for pointing that out you have a good eye.

my philosophy
is that for guys that are still growing and trying to put on size, and if they are not estrogen sensitive, then they are best running cycles without an AI (use a SERM if needed) because Estrogen in the presence of elevated Androgens is an extremely anabolic hormone and will help you put on the size (E is more anabolic then DHT or HGH). for guys that are E sensitive though, then an AI is a great tool.

IF your a guy thats already built your size and you like walking around with a more lean dry look while on cycle then AI's are a great tool to keep estrogen not only in check but on the low end (sure this limits your muscle building potential, but who cares you already have muscle and are just trying to stay lean and dry).

of course there are plenty of ways to run cycles for either case where an AI would not really be needed.. you just gotta take the time to learn your body. IF your a guy that can run 300mg of test and not have Estrogen related sides, but at 500mg of test you do need an AI, then you can simply design your cycles around that 300mg base of test and fill in the rest with anabolics that have limited estrogen conversion.
so instead of running 1000mg of test for your cycle , you run 300mg of test (where you don't need an AI) and add 700mg of EQ on top of that test to give you your 1000mg base. then you simply add your Anabolics like Mast, Var, Winny, etc.. that don't convert to Estrogen,, and there you go, you got your cycle based on your personal tolerance and won't need an AI.


AS for SERMS for estrogen control. keep in mind that SERMS are 'selective' in their control of estrogen.. yes you are exactly correct in saying that SERMS only stop estrogen from binding to certain receptor sites. BUT this is a 'good thing' not a bad thing. They blunt estrogen from biding where we do NOT want estrogen to bind and allow estrogen to bind where we do want it to bind.. so we blunt estrogen from binding to fat and breast tissue, but allow estrogen to bind to the liver and muscle tissue (where we do want it). So SERMS allow blood levels of estrogen to rise along with our rising testosterone levels when we are on cycle (this is a good thing), we want elevated estrogen in most cases, BUT we don't want estrogen to effect certain receptors like breast tissue. So SERM use for estrogen usually equates to a 'win win' , meaning we allow the good benefits of elevated estrogen and only stop the bad effects of estrogen. Where as an AI simply stops the production of estrogen all together and hinders the elevation of blood levels of estrogen to go up as androgen levels go up (a bad thing except in certain circumstances .. when androgen levels rise we want estrogen levels to rise equally, AI's stop this from happening).

but again this is all person and circumstances dependent .. SERMS are a great tool for lots of guys for estrogen control on cycle depending on their situation and goals. AI's can be a great tool as well depending on that guys situation and needs.

theres not one right way and another wrong way . its depending on the person and what suites his needs at the specific time. I can give scenarios where SERMS are optimal and ideal, and scenarios where AI's are ideal, and scenarios where both are needed.
I can also name off Pro bodybuilders that mainly use AI's for estrogen control , and name off ones that only use SERMS for estrogen control (except for a couple weeks out from a show).
so even at that high of a level, its different strokes for different folks

[Marcus G]

my philosophy
is that for guys that are still growing and trying to put on size, and if they are not estrogen sensitive, then they are best running cycles without an AI (use a SERM if needed) because Estrogen in the presence of elevated Androgens is an extremely anabolic hormone and will help you put on the size (E is more anabolic then DHT or HGH). for guys that are E sensitive though, then an AI is a great tool.

IF your a guy thats already built your size and you like walking around with a more lean dry look while on cycle then AI's are a great tool to keep estrogen not only in check but on the low end (sure this limits your muscle building potential, but who cares you already have muscle and are just trying to stay lean and dry).

of course there are plenty of ways to run cycles for either case where an AI would not really be needed.. you just gotta take the time to learn your body. IF your a guy that can run 300mg of test and not have Estrogen related sides, but at 500mg of test you do need an AI, then you can simply design your cycles around that 300mg base of test and fill in the rest with anabolics that have limited estrogen conversion.
so instead of running 1000mg of test for your cycle , you run 300mg of test (where you don't need an AI) and add 700mg of EQ on top of that test to give you your 1000mg base. then you simply add your Anabolics like Mast, Var, Winny, etc.. that don't convert to Estrogen,, and there you go, you got your cycle based on your personal tolerance and won't need an AI.


AS for SERMS for estrogen control. keep in mind that SERMS are 'selective' in their control of estrogen.. yes you are exactly correct in saying that SERMS only stop estrogen from binding to certain receptor sites. BUT this is a 'good thing' not a bad thing. They blunt estrogen from biding where we do NOT want estrogen to bind and allow estrogen to bind where we do want it to bind.. so we blunt estrogen from binding to fat and breast tissue, but allow estrogen to bind to the liver and muscle tissue (where we do want it). So SERMS allow blood levels of estrogen to rise along with our rising testosterone levels when we are on cycle (this is a good thing), we want elevated estrogen in most cases, BUT we don't want estrogen to effect certain receptors like breast tissue. So SERM use for estrogen usually equates to a 'win win' , meaning we allow the good benefits of elevated estrogen and only stop the bad effects of estrogen. Where as an AI simply stops the production of estrogen all together and hinders the elevation of blood levels of estrogen to go up as androgen levels go up (a bad thing except in certain circumstances .. when androgen levels rise we want estrogen levels to rise equally, AI's stop this from happening).

but again this is all person and circumstances dependent .. SERMS are a great tool for lots of guys for estrogen control on cycle depending on their situation and goals. AI's can be a great tool as well depending on that guys situation and needs.

theres not one right way and another wrong way . its depending on the person and what suites his needs at the specific time. I can give scenarios where SERMS are optimal and ideal, and scenarios where AI's are ideal, and scenarios where both are needed.
I can also name off Pro bodybuilders that mainly use AI's for estrogen control , and name off ones that only use SERMS for estrogen control (except for a couple weeks out from a show).
so even at that high of a level, its different strokes for different folks

Well said dude it appears we have different views on the subject of AI's but what we can agree is that there are different ways to run cycles for different people as you've explained (and I agree).

[sleepstalker]

One other thing I just thought of. Considering those who following the journey of blasting then going on a pct getting off the test. Wouldnt it be better to take the test when leaning out vs putting on mass? Wouldn't it be twice a let down not using the test when cutting? At least when lean bulking eating a slightly higher cal intake of clean foods, the extra calories and fat not only can support testosterone production but cushion the joints. Makes sense?

[GearHeaded]

One other thing I just thought of. Considering those who following the journey of blasting then going on a pct getting off the test. Wouldnt it be better to take the test when leaning out vs putting on mass? Wouldn't it be twice a let down not using the test when cutting? At least when lean bulking eating a slightly higher cal intake of clean foods, the extra calories and fat not only can support testosterone production but cushion the joints. Makes sense?

Traditionally , from Arnolds day and to some degree to today even . the majority of high level competitive bodybuilders use the most amount of drugs during their contest prep and dieting phases then they do in the off season or times of bulking.

even natural guys can put on some decent size in the off season , whats hard is holding onto all your size and your muscle fullness while dieting and getting lean.
thats why there is about a 100 pound difference between the stage weight of a natural pro bodybuilder and an IFBB pro bodybuilder.

[sleepstalker]

Traditionally , from Arnolds day and to some degree to today even . the majority of high level competitive bodybuilders use the most amount of drugs during their contest prep and dieting phases then they do in the off season or times of bulking.

even natural guys can put on some decent size in the off season , whats hard is holding onto all your size and your muscle fullness while dieting and getting lean.
thats why there is about a 100 pound difference between the stage weight of a natural pro bodybuilder and an IFBB pro bodybuilder.

Exactly! I knew I was thinking on the right track. This thread is really a golden toolbox of wisdom.