ESTROGEN - The other Anabolic Hormone

[Obs]

Thanks for sharing.

Plenty to go around if you would like some sexy legs...?

this is biologically accurate .. heres why.

- estrogen is the main hormone that controls the male libido . low estrogen = low sex drive
- the aromatase enzyme, which is located in fat cells, is responsible for converting test into estrogen. the more fat you have the more aromatase you have and the more potential you have for estrogen. the lower your body fat the less potential you have for estrogen..

^ this is important for reproduction of our species.
you see if we males are in a state of famine and starvation, our body fat is going to be super low thus our estrogen will be super low and thus we will have little desire for sex. this is biologically beneficial as its not ideal to procreate and generate offspring (for any species) during times of famine or starvation.
NOW when we are well fed and food supply is consistent to the point that we put on body fat, our aromatase enzyme increases and our ability to produce estrogen increases and we then have a strong sex drive and ability to procreate.

see how estrogen is very important to the male species for survival . no its not just a ''female'' hormone

Damn...
I thought it was because I just liked things touching my wiener all the time.

[ShootingAcez]

What a gem of a thread to read through!

[CA_DXB_85]

I thought having elevated estrogen is pretty bad and could lead to a lot of problems like putting on more fat etc (also, in the why you should run AI sticky it talked about how it could cause cancer in the long run) . I got the whole you MUST run AI from this forum and this last cycle I used AI and I was miserable until I considerably lowered the dosage (joint pain and what not).
So, to AI or not to AI? That is my question lol

[JackMan017]

For a first timer doing 500mg of Test, having an AI & Nolva during the cycle is optimal? Also having Bloodwork/estrogen prior to cycle.
If a first timer's estrogen level seems in line on bloodwork and they begin the cycle, how would one know if they should use an AI or Nolva or nothing at all during the cycle? Going of feel? Going off mid cycle bloods?

[GearHeaded]

For a first timer doing 500mg of Test, having an AI & Nolva during the cycle is optimal? Also having Bloodwork/estrogen prior to cycle.
If a first timer's estrogen level seems in line on bloodwork and they begin the cycle, how would one know if they should use an AI or Nolva or nothing at all during the cycle? Going of feel? Going off mid cycle bloods?

keep this in mind. when you get blood work PRIOR to your cycle your measuring blood levels for a "normal" person in normal ranges. so your estrogen levels and your androgen levels should fall within the normal ranges.
when you run AAS and are on cycle, the whole point is to no longer be "normal" . those normal ranges no longer apply to you.. the idea of taking drugs to put your levels way up off the charts (like 500mg of test) and then take other drugs at the same time to keep things like estrogen in "normal" ranges is counter productive. Estrogen is SUPPOSED to go up when you androgen levels go up.

IF you got blood work mid cycle and you found your test levels were high (this is to be expected) and you found your estrogen levels were also high (this is to be expected), you don't learn anything new other then finding out your gear is at least legit.
why do you need blood work to tell you what is supposed to be happening anyways ? cycling AAS is NOT TRT ! your levels are not supposed to be in "normal" ranges.

as for knowing wither you should use an AI or Nolva. thats all person, situation, goal, etc. dependent.. your blood work is really irrelevant, as again your levels are supposed to be elevated while on cycle.

[GearHeaded]

For a first timer doing 500mg of Test, having an AI & Nolva during the cycle is optimal?

having an AI and Nolva on hand is a fine idea .. but, having to have to use an AI and Nolva while on a measly 500mg of test is far from optimal. if your in that position then you likely don't have great genetics for AAS usage (and are more prone to negative side effects then positive).. IF you can run 500mg of test year round and not ever have to touch an AI or Nolva, that is optimal (means your not estrogen sensitive and you'll be able to use elevated estrogen levels to help your grow and put on muscle)

[GearHeaded]

I thought having elevated estrogen is pretty bad and could lead to a lot of problems like putting on more fat etc (also, in the why you should run AI sticky it talked about how it could cause cancer in the long run) . I got the whole you MUST run AI from this forum and this last cycle I used AI and I was miserable until I considerably lowered the dosage (joint pain and what not).
So, to AI or not to AI? That is my question lol

let me ask you this question . is having high blood pressure and an elevated heart rate bad for you ??

if you answer yes . then why do you exercise , because every time you exercise your blood pressure and heart rate go up. why are you purposely causing something that you just said was bad for you.

I ask that to just set the context.. if you did NOT exercise yet you have chronic high blood pressure and high heart rate, then yes thats likely a bad thing.
but if its only when you exercise that you get acute high blood pressure and heart rate then not only is that just fine, its probably a healthy good thing.

if your a normal non AAS using male, yet your chronically walking around with supraphysioligical levels of estrogen, then you likely have some problems and thats not a good thing.

if your an AAS using male that chooses certain times of the year to "blast" AAS and temporarily super elevate estrogen and androgen levels, then that is totally acceptable and fine thing to do. the elevated levels are there to help you in that context .. just like the elevated blood pressure and heart rate are helping you during exercise (its what is supposed to happen).

the whole point in running AAS is to get these supraphysiological levels of hormones and other blood factors . if you don't want these things elevated, then don't run AAS

[GearHeaded]

I thought having elevated estrogen is pretty bad and could lead to a lot of problems like putting on more fat etc (also, in the why you should run AI sticky it talked about how it could cause cancer in the long run) . I got the whole you MUST run AI from this forum and this last cycle I used AI and I was miserable until I considerably lowered the dosage (joint pain and what not).
So, to AI or not to AI? That is my question lol

decades ago , estrogen got a bad rap as it was not fully understood especially in males . but newer research has come out and the findings have shown how beneficial and important estrogen is.
I'm not gong to go through it all right now . but here a few things .. Estrogen is responsible for the male libido, it plays a role in the production of good cholesterol HDL , its heart protective, it plays a role in the vascular system and keeping it elastic, its involved in the conversion of HGH into IGF , it plays a role in the production of HGH, it has anabolic properties .

if you look across the spectrum of population you'll find that its young females that have the least risk of having heart attack or heart disease. coincidentally its young women that have the highest levels of estrogen. and more coincidentally its these same women that who when they reach menopause and their estrogen levels plummet, their risk of heart disease goes up substantially.

the heart and lipid protective benefits (and all the other benefits) of estrogen far outweigh some claim that elevated estrogen causes cancer.
(besides, pretty much everything causes cancer. the air your breathing if you breath it long enough will eventually lead to cancer. does that mean you should stop breathing it. no)

[CA_DXB_85]

let me ask you this question . is having high blood pressure and an elevated heart rate bad for you ??

if you answer yes . then why do you exercise , because every time you exercise your blood pressure and heart rate go up. why are you purposely causing something that you just said was bad for you.

I ask that to just set the context.. if you did NOT exercise yet you have chronic high blood pressure and high heart rate, then yes thats likely a bad thing.
but if its only when you exercise that you get acute high blood pressure and heart rate then not only is that just fine, its probably a healthy good thing.

if your a normal non AAS using male, yet your chronically walking around with supraphysioligical levels of estrogen, then you likely have some problems and thats not a good thing.

if your an AAS using male that chooses certain times of the year to "blast" AAS and temporarily super elevate estrogen and androgen levels, then that is totally acceptable and fine thing to do. the elevated levels are there to help you in that context .. just like the elevated blood pressure and heart rate are helping you during exercise (its what is supposed to happen).

the whole point in running AAS is to get these supraphysiological levels of hormones and other blood factors . if you don't want these things elevated, then don't run AAS

Bro, you certainly have a way with explaining things!

Thanks for taking the time to respond

[Quester]

personally, if your an advanced user I think that mid cycle bloods are useless. theres zero reason for me to know my mid cycle estrogen or test levels.
for a new user just getting started, it can have some benefit so he has some idea how he responds to the hormones. what his SHBG, free test, total test, E2, etc. loosk like off say 500mg of test..

for me when my E gets over say the 200++ range, I know this just by feel, I don't need bloods. I'll hit letro for 2 weeks or so then continue on cycle just fine (this would generally only be needed if running over 1.5g of test along with other estrogenic compounds)

as for 10mg of Nolva per day on cycle.. that should cover 'most' guys the entire cycle in regards to blunting estrogen receptors where we want them blunted, and allowing estrogen receptors to be activated where we want them activated. it does not matter much if our total blood levels of E are elevated above normal range (in fact I would consider that a good thing when trying to grow).

GH, I gotta disagree. I agree based on the merit that an advanced user knows what they are doing to a degree that they already know what a blood test would say, by two mechanisms (I can think of). 1)An advanced user knows how the body will respond to the various chemicals. 2)An advanced user has a depth of knowledge which allows them to accurately point to the cause of a symptom.
I disagree that it is useless. When I used to get things I could measure, I did, even when I knew the guy I got it from. Maybe it is just me but, TRUST BUT VERIFY. This is but one reason to run bloods.

[GearHeaded]

GH, I gotta disagree. I agree based on the merit that an advanced user knows what they are doing to a degree that they already know what a blood test would say, by two mechanisms (I can think of). 1)An advanced user knows how the body will respond to the various chemicals. 2)An advanced user has a depth of knowledge which allows them to accurately point to the cause of a symptom.
I disagree that it is useless. When I used to get things I could measure, I did, even when I knew the guy I got it from. Maybe it is just me but, TRUST BUT VERIFY. This is but one reason to run bloods.

just to clarify . I did not mean that mid cycle bloods are useless, I only meant that for me getting mid cycle bloods FOR THE PURPOSE OF KNOWING MY ESTROGEN levels is useless..

if I'm doing an 8 week blast of say 1.5 grams of test and 50mg a day of Dbol , my estrogen levels are supposed to be high. why would a blood test confriming my E2 is say , 80 or 100 or 120 , have any real benefit for me? what difference does it make if its 100 or 120 ? its supposed to be high either way.

I mean sure I guess knowing the exact number wouldn't hurt. but I surely don't want to pay extra $ to know this. I guess its just more a practical and economical thing for me. theres nothing useful for me to know my E levels during a blast like that.

however, if I was trying to dial in a TRT protocol for myself . then YES of course I would want my test and E levels

[Charlie67]

Random thought,
Knowing the specific number might not be all that helpful... There's no practical difference between 77 and 81, imho.

However, i can think of one way it might be helpful for new people to know the approximate range, so they have some metric by which to judge any side effects. If you feel great and you're not symptomatic and your E = 65... Then great. But if you feel like shit when it hits 90, that's valuable to know. As you run more cycles and begin to learn where your E lands with various stacks, you'll learn that the stacks that get your E up past 80 might need a little AI, or Nolva, or whatever. Other stacks may need none. Once you have some of this data, you can save the blood work.

I'm not implying (nor is GH I think.. Not speaking for him, I'm not smart enough) that blood work as a whole is unimportant. Knowing your precise E may or may not have benefits, but knowing other info about lipids, hematocrit, free test, blood sugar, etc.. I think those are worth knowing.

[GearHeaded]

If you feel great and you're not symptomatic and your E = 65... Then great. But if you feel like shit when it hits 90, that's valuable to know

I agree with this . but just for discussion sake I'll add this ...

do we ever do this with the 'other' anabolic hormone testosterone . do we get blood work done while on cycle and think "man I feel great when my test level are 1800 ng/dl .. I sure hope they don't climb up to 2500 ng/dl cause then I'm going to feel pretty shitty" .. nope, we generally hope for the highest androgen levels we can get (we hit 5000 ng/dl and celebrate), even though we are likely to feel a bit shitty and have negative sides from super elevated androgen levels , but in the hope of gains we generally dismiss these negative 'high androgen' side effects for the gains sake.
but for some reason we have a double standard when it comes to estrogen levels. if we feel like shit with high androgen levels its ok, but high estrogen levels its time to pull the plug .
we accept the negative side effects that come from high androgen levels. but we don't tolerate high estrogen levels (even though both hormones are anabolic when upwards into supraphysioligical levels).


I think this is simply because we are conditioned to believe that high androgen levels are good (despite having negative side effects) and high estrogen levels are some how bad and must be dealt with (despite having anabolic benefits)

[JackMan017]

having an AI and Nolva on hand is a fine idea .. but, having to have to use an AI and Nolva while on a measly 500mg of test is far from optimal. if your in that position then you likely don't have great genetics for AAS usage (and are more prone to negative side effects then positive).. IF you can run 500mg of test year round and not ever have to touch an AI or Nolva, that is optimal (means your not estrogen sensitive and you'll be able to use elevated estrogen levels to help your grow and put on muscle)

Now I think I get it. I'm glad you typed this part out for me. More or less, if one is not estrogen sensitive (aka has decent genetics), there should be little to no issue during a beginner cycle where the relationship of test/estrogen are elevated together. At worst, a small amount of nolva here or there. I guess there's only 1 way to find out how sensitive I am...
Thank you Sir for your time and both responses. This helps me alot, I'm sure others as well.

[GearHeaded]

Now I think I get it. I'm glad you typed this part out for me. More or less, if one is not estrogen sensitive (aka has decent genetics), there should be little to no issue during a beginner cycle where the relationship of test/estrogen are elevated together. At worst, a small amount of nolva here or there. I guess there's only 1 way to find out how sensitive I am...
Thank you Sir for your time and both responses. This helps me alot, I'm sure others as well.

another thing to keep in mind here.. even if you found that you were estrogen sensitive, well thats not really a big problem. you can run 100s of cycles for years on end and never worry about estrogen being most anabolic steroids available to us don't convert to estrogen in the first place.

the whole idea of AI's and controlling estrogen with cycles got a lot more popular when TEST ONLY cycles got popular. which if find interesting because testosterone isn't even technically an anabolic steroid to begin with. drop the idea of running test only cycles and run actual anabolic steroid cycles and estrogen control is usually not an issue (except for with a very minor few compounds).
having said that, as this thread points out, elevated estrogen has a ton of benefits , so if we can at least use test to get some estrogen conversion we'll be in a better place

[Charlie67]

"man I feel great when my test level are 1800 ng/dl .. I sure hope they don't climb up to 2500

Haha, lol .... True, I've never said that!

.....for some reason we have a double standard when it comes to estrogen levels. if we feel like shit with high androgen levels its ok, but high estrogen levels its time to pull the plug .....we accept the negative side effects that come from high androgen levels. but we don't tolerate high estrogen levels ....I think this is simply because we are conditioned to believe that high androgen levels are good (despite having negative side effects) and high estrogen levels are some how bad and must be dealt with (despite having anabolic benefits)

The double standard is real. Well said GH.

[DeeCee112]

Great thread, I don't think I've seen anyone look at estrogen like this and certainly noone make as much sense and totally make you think hey yeah wait a minute...this actually fits.

Generally anything I've seen is its incredibly unpopular to not advise everyone to keep estrogen down it is evil and if you don't you are doing it wrong and if you tell others not to you are giving bad advice.

I've stopped my AI based on this hoping to reap the mlbuilding properties but previously for all I love read or been told is estrogen has no positive properties and if high can cause every side to testosterone usage and maybe even cancer.

[Couchlockd]

Great thread, I don't think I've seen anyone look at estrogen like this and certainly noone make as much sense and totally make you think hey yeah wait a minute...this actually fits.

Generally anything I've seen is its incredibly unpopular to not advise everyone to keep estrogen down it is evil and if you don't you are doing it wrong and if you tell others not to you are giving bad advice.

I've stopped my AI based on this hoping to reap the mlbuilding properties but previously for all I love read or been told is estrogen has no positive properties and if high can cause every side to testosterone usage and maybe even cancer.

You have no idea just how unpopular and sacrifice of time and energy it took to let's these opinions and facts be heard.

[DeeCee112]

I don't being newer to the scene but I have been watching idly on and off for the last 6yrs contemplating the switch to the dark side and have seen some shit here and there.

It'd be interesting to know how this school of thought originated and then evolved into the widespread internet gospel that it is now. Someone told me once that if I chose not to run an AI from day 1 it was comparable to not buckling up your seatbelt until you were in a car crash!

Anyways props to GH and some of you guys stepping out of bounds and challenging the status quo which is what good science, broscience or not is all about.

[Couchlockd]

I don't being newer to the scene but I have been watching idly on and off for the last 6yrs contemplating the switch to the dark side and have seen some shit here and there.

It'd be interesting to know how this school of thought originated and then evolved into the widespread internet gospel that it is now. Someone told me once that if I chose not to run an AI from day 1 it was comparable to not buckling up your seatbelt until you were in a car crash!

Anyways props to GH and some of you guys stepping out of bounds and challenging the status quo which is what good science, broscience or not is all about.

Long storry short, it got ugly for a while, but it played out well in the end.

Lots of us were ran off, buy we percevered with help from a few staffs, were made whole again.

[fiddlesticks]

I don't being newer to the scene but I have been watching idly on and off for the last 6yrs contemplating the switch to the dark side and have seen some shit here and there.

It'd be interesting to know how this school of thought originated and then evolved into the widespread internet gospel that it is now. Someone told me once that if I chose not to run an AI from day 1 it was comparable to not buckling up your seatbelt until you were in a car crash!

Anyways props to GH and some of you guys stepping out of bounds and challenging the status quo which is what good science, broscience or not is all about.

Fuck the status quo. So much old "information" is so hilariously wrong it really needs to be banished. Here are some unholy writings I could think of:

---------------------------

I lose fat eating 10K+ cals on insulin .

DNP is not even remotely dangerous for an intelligent person.

Superdrol is probably the most effective AAS in only double digit MCG doses. To add to this, anadrol is totally piss, it works decently but mental sides are some of the worst there are.

Tren is extraordinarily overrated.

HGH is extraordinarily overrated and GHRPs work nearly as well for probably 5 percent the price.

There are plenty more but those may be the highlights.

[mac34]

Someone in this thread mentioned estrogen also plays the role of sex hormone in males. I think it's heavily dependent on individual, or at least these are my insights from personal experience.

While surely low estrogen, below the normal range can make your dick disfunctional, I don't think elevated E are at all useful to libido, if not counteractive.

Before I started my first cycle, I was on cabaser treatment, bumped my natural T up to 4.5 and was horny as fuck because of the low prolactin levels. My E was pretty good and I felt amazing.

When I jumped on my first cycle, 150-200mg Cypionate a week, sure, after some 2-3 weeks I noticed crazy sex drive. But, as the time went on, it decreased and I had erection problems. Turned out my E was 300ng/dl - that's a pretty fing bad aromatase rate for the doses I took.

When I ended the cycle, I had actually better sex drive than mid cycle, even though T levels were slightly lower (but still in 20 range, where 10 is the natty max), not to mention the cut from the lost water.

Now I'm on TRT, because of some recent problems I didn't get my 60mg shot in 1.5 weeks, I think my libido is higher than after taking the shots. It must be E drop. I'm still experimenting here, so I have no idea yet what are optimal doses for me, and if I should AI and when. Still figuring that out. Taking into the fact that's it\s been 1.5 week and I'm still doing fine, I think I will change from 60mg twice a week to 80mg every week.

So far me, high E = low libido, low erection quality and morning wood doesn't occur every morning, despite the higher than natty max T levels circulating in blood.

[GearHeaded]

Mac ,, sounds like your one of those rare few guys that are sensitive to exogenous test and get more sides then its worth. heck even Arnold Shwarznegger was one of these guys and would never run test with any of his cycles (primo and dbol only cycles).

[Slacker78]

Thank to this thread i have understood very well why in several cycles i did, i have limited my gains when i used too much AI. Thank you so much, GearHeaded and nevertheless, to all users joined in this great topic. I'd suggest to put this as sticked topic in top of forum section. It's pretty educational i think.

[mac34]

GearHeaded, actually I think my body responds great to exogenous test.

In short, I have been going to the gym regularly, eating calories and all that for a few years. I started when I was 15, my natural peak was maybe at 20. I had the most mass, but also lots of fat.

Then a little bit later, I decided to do a cut, I never really could cut, and burned all my muscles as a result. Then it turned out I had high prolactine and screwed up hormonal profile. I didn't look too good then.

At 22, still going to the gym regularly, I looked very average. But later that year I jumped on 150mg test cyp cycle. After 2 months I never was bigger and more lean in my life. The 3rd month, I started to dropping the cycle slowly and didn't even bother going to the gym - looked even better due to losing water. Not to mention I didn't eat well at all, mostly chips, sweats were my main sources of calories.

Then I was scared to do PCT post cycle, I became skinny. Few months later, jumping on the TRT I'm currently on, and going to the gym 2 times a week at max. I would say I look pretty good considering in the last 5 weeks I have been to the gym maybe 4 times and shooting 120mg T, Probably still look better than naturally ever.

I don't know maybe all that is normal, but it feels to me like the sides are worth it.

I just have to check if that libido thing is related to estrogen levels.

[GearHeaded]

I just have to check if that libido thing is related to estrogen levels.

well your not injecting estrogen .. your injecting testosterone . so any of the negative sexual sides you had are still ultimately from injecting test (dht, estrogen, etc.. are all downstream effects from the test injection).

my point was, experiencing negative sexual side effects (or super high estrogen levels) off of only 150-200mg of test per week is very rare and not the norm. so obviously you have some negative responses to exogenous test (again, your NOT taking estrogen, your taking test, so you can't really blame it on the estrogen. its how your body is responding to and metabolizing test that is the issue).


in regards to your physuiqe changing and getting more muscular.. well thats to be expected (the negative sexual side effects are not expected). I mean heck, your estrogen levels were through the roof , correct ? of course your going to be more full and muscular.
when I mentioned you perhaps not responding well to test, I meant nothing in regards to your physique

[GearHeaded]

At 22, still going to the gym regularly, I looked very average. But later that year I jumped on 150mg test cyp cycle. After 2 months I never was bigger and more lean in my life. The 3rd month, I started to dropping the cycle slowly and didn't even bother going to the gym - looked even better due to losing water. Not to mention I didn't eat well at all, mostly chips, sweats were my main sources of calories.

not going to the gym regularly and not eating very well . at 22 you natty test levels should be optimal .. being your not living the lifestyle at all, why are you even bothering running gear and potentially F'ing up your HPTA at such a young age ? and running such low dosages your not going to get much benefits or real solid gains.

on the TRT I'm currently on, and going to the gym 2 times a week at max. I would say I look pretty good considering in the last 5 weeks I have been to the gym maybe 4 times

now you've put yourself on TRT at 22 years old ? and again, you barely train ?

[DeeCee112]

GearHeaded, actually I think my body responds great to exogenous test.

Then a little bit later, I decided to do a cut, I never really could cut, and burned all my muscles as a result. Then it turned out I had high prolactine and screwed up hormonal profile. I didn't look too good then.

At 22, still going to the gym regularly, I looked very average. But later that year I jumped on 150mg test cyp cycle. After 2 months I never was bigger and more lean in my life. The 3rd month, I started to dropping the cycle slowly and didn't even bother going to the gym - looked even better due to losing water. Not to mention I didn't eat well at all, mostly chips, sweats were my main sources of calories.

Then I was scared to do PCT post cycle, I became skinny. Few months later, jumping on the TRT I'm currently on, and going to the gym 2 times a week at max. I would say I look pretty good considering in the last 5 weeks I have been to the gym maybe 4 times and shooting 120mg T, Probably still look better than naturally ever.

I don't know maybe all that is normal, but it feels to me like the sides are worth it.

I just have to check if that libido thing is related to estrogen levels.

1) If you burned all your muscles doing a cut your diet and training is to blame, not estrogen.

2)How did you originally screw up your hormones? Was it from sporadic and irresponsible AAS usage? Again, likely not strictly estrogens fault.

3)Adding test helped give you results in those 2 months. Screwing with your dosage and what sounds like again, erratic, irresponsible AAS usage combined with incredibly poor diet and lack of training screwed up your results. Maybe not immediately but shortly after your 3rd month. Not the hormone estrogen.

4)No PCT protocol after testosterone usage. Again, not estrogen.

I'm jus saying its irresponsible to solely blame estrogen as the culprit, especially when other people may be silly enough to listen to you when there is so much else you've done wrong. I think that's exactly how we got here in the first place. Everytime something goes sideways people point at the easy target estrogen when in fact there is so much else wrong.

If I were you I'd take some advice from some of these guys who really know what their doing and sort out a new plan for whatever it is you are trying to do that is safe, consistent and stick with it. Jumping on and off and switching dosages and compounds and ancillaries like that with no pct or hcg is not a good life plan!

[mac34]

That's my point. I got solid gains out of thin air. I can be on a low dose (100mg per week), rarely go to the gym, eat so so and still maintain a physique better than I had when going to the gym regularly and shoving 4-5k calories a day. I had mass back then (240lbs, 6.2), but I also had some fat and I never was able to cut without burning muscles.

Unless I use some super high concentrated gear, but I doubt that's the case.

Also I had 2.8 natural T levels (3 - 8 being the normal range). It was due to prolactine levels. After a month of caber, my T went up to 4.5. Then I made a stupid decision (partially due to ignorance on the subject) and jumped on the cycle. I din't run HCG during it, and was scared to run PCT meds, because of the possible negative effects on eyesight. I hoped to regain it naturally, but I was at 2.8 T again and skinny.

So I thought, what the heck. I screwed up my HPTA already, I want some size (to cover up some genetic deficiencies) and just be more attractive, and of course to have crazy libido. So there I am with the TRT.

I still consider running PCT drugs and see how it turns out. Maybe it's not too late. But even if I got my T up to 5, I don't believe I could maintain the same physique.

Though now I unfortunately noticed I'm losing hair. I will try some products, and also drop the dose as I think 2x60mg is way too much for a TRT. Might as well go to the barber to see how I would look like bald

[mac34]

DeeCee

that's not what I meant at all. Of course you are right in all the points.

My point about estrogen is I think it greatly surpressed my libido and erections. That was the only point about estrogen. The other stuff is a bit off topic.

[DeeCee112]

That's my point. I got solid gains out of thin air. I can be on a low dose (100mg per week), rarely go to the gym, eat so so and still maintain a physique better than I had when going to the gym regularly and shoving 4-5k calories a day. I had mass back then (240lbs, 6.2), but I also had some fat and I never was able to cut without burning muscles.

Unless I use some super high concentrated gear, but I doubt that's the case.

Also I had 2.8 natural T levels (3 - 8 being the normal range). It was due to prolactine levels. After a month of caber, my T went up to 4.5. Then I made a stupid decision (partially due to ignorance on the subject) and jumped on the cycle. I din't run HCG during it, and was scared to run PCT meds, because of the possible negative effects on eyesight. I hoped to regain it naturally, but I was at 2.8 T again and skinny.

So I thought, what the heck. I screwed up my HPTA already, I want some size (to cover up some genetic deficiencies) and just be more attractive, and of course to have crazy libido. So there I am with the TRT.

I still consider running PCT drugs and see how it turns out. Maybe it's not too late. But even if I got my T up to 5, I don't believe I could maintain the same physique.

Though now I unfortunately noticed I'm losing hair. I will try some products, and also drop the dose as I think 2x60mg is way too much for a TRT. Might as well go to the barber to see how I would look like bald

All good man but why don't you make a post on the TRT section and get some input as it sounds like you are winging it? I'm sure some guys would be happy to help you if you include your bloodwork, history, stats, goals ect. I don't know much about TRT but I do know that it isn't a joke playing your hpta system roulette and hoping you get it right but a science that needs to be dialed in. Although if it were me I'd be trying to PCT before committing to a lifetime of TRT just yet.


Anyways back to estrogen, I've been off armidex for a week and a half , no issues. BP is good, after what I thought was estrogen but likely stress related spike, going for bloodwork Thursday.

[GearHeaded]

My point about estrogen is I think it greatly surpressed my libido and erections. That was the only point about estrogen. The other stuff is a bit off topic.

I just want to point out, or clarify again, that biologically in males estrogen is responsible for libido and sex drive , and in females its testosterone /androgens that is responsible for libido.
most people think just the exact opposite, but they are wrong.

now having said that.. having an "imbalance" of estrogen to other hormones in the body , or high estrogen with high prolactin, or high estrogen with low DHT, etc.. or other imbalances can definitely cause problems.
but just an elevation in estrogen levels ALONE (with no other factors) is not going to cause libido issues in men, usually just the opposite it will increase libido.


a lot of guys recommend not running other AAS without test as a base (which I agree with). and the reason they say this is because test is needed for sexual function and other AAS will shut down natty test and thus without test in your body you'll run into sexual issues.
well as true as this is in a lot of cases, a lot of guys don't realize that running say for example a Tren only cycle with no test will result in eventual sexual dysfunction is NOT necessary because there is no test in the equation, its because there is no test to convert to estrogen (and dht) in the equation. if tren converted to both estrogen and dht like test did, then you could run Tren only cycles without test and be just fine.
so again, its the estrogen thats needed to maintain sexual function in men.

[mac34]

I believe you. But I think we can agree that having 250 E where 50 is normal has potential for problems. No matter the T? Or is it all about proportions? I had more than 2400 T at the time, beyond what the machine could read.
And yes, sorry for that offtopic.

[GearHeaded]

I believe you. But I think we can agree that having 250 E where 50 is normal has potential for problems. No matter the T? Or is it all about proportions? I had more than 2400 T at the time, beyond what the machine could read.
And yes, sorry for that offtopic.

well for most guys on this section of the forum "normal" does not apply . normal ranges on blood work were designed for normal people with normal natural production of hormones, not guys abusing steroids and injecting 1000x above normal dosages of these hormones.

so I would agree that having over normal blood levels of hormones (wither that be testosterone , estrogen, dht, etc.) is an issue for "normal" people or guys on TRT (which sole propose of TRT is to get optimized 'normal' levels of hormones, as thats why they have to be on TRT cause they can't get normal levels naturally) .

BUT for guys injecting supaphysiological levels of hormones/AAS , the "normal" ranges on blood work have ZERO application (again the blood work ranges were not designed for us).. if your on 1500mg of test per week and 100mg of Dbol , having estrogen levels in the 400s may be perfectly normal, and having androgen levels in the 5000+ range may be normal as well.
now of course, if your on TRT or a "normal' person with normal hormone influx, then those numbers are not normal

[GearHeaded]

lots of guys will say that having high estrogen levels is not "normal" .. yeah but neither is having high androgen levels, yet your purposely taking drugs to raise your androgen levels 20x the normal range (maybe you should take an "anti androgen" to go along with your "anti estrogen"

but that would be just plain silly. the reason you take AAS is to raise you androgen levels. just like the reason you take estrogenic aromatizing steroids is to raise your estrogen levels along with those elevated androgen levels. would be plain silly to take a drug to keep this from happening (just don't take the first drug in the first place )

[EDCG19]

lots of guys will say that having high estrogen levels is not "normal" .. yeah but neither is having high androgen levels, yet your purposely taking drugs to raise your androgen levels 20x the normal range (maybe you should take an "anti androgen" to go along with your "anti estrogen"

but that would be just plain silly. the reason you take AAS is to raise you androgen levels. just like the reason you take estrogenic aromatizing steroids is to raise your estrogen levels along with those elevated androgen levels. would be plain silly to take a drug to keep this from happening (just don't take the first drug in the first place )

If thats the case...than why even take an AI and why is it recommend?

[GearHeaded]

If thats the case...than why even take an AI and why is it recommend?

I don't take an AI (except in some rare circumstances) , plenty of other guys like Obs blasts high dosages and don't take AI's either. and No taking AI's is NOT recommended unless your estrogen sensitive and gyno prone (and even then if your are its best to simply not run estrogenic compounds).. 90% of the steroids we have access to don't even aromatize into estrogen in the first place . you can run 20 cycles per year with 20 different compounds and never need an AI .

the people that recommend them are generally guys on TRT or blast test only cycles . which is a different subject all together then AAS use. AI's makes sense for guys that need to keep normal blood serum levels of estrogen (but for a lot of AAS users and abusers, this is not the case)


the people who recommend AI usage the most are the drug dealers, who make the highest amount of profit margins on AI's then anything else. they propose guys take AI's with every cycle . which is ridiculous and totally not warranted (as again most steroids don't convert to estrogen in the first place)

[GearHeaded]

lets say I ran a crazy high dosage cycle of
Primo
Masteron
Winstrol
Superdrol
Anavar
Tren
Eq
Tbol

thats a lot of drugs. but guess what I still wouldn't need an AI, none of these really aromatize at all, and in fact some of them actually work as anti estrogens themselves. SO why on earth would I waste $ on running an AI. there would be no need for an AI and in fact it would be counter productive.
again, a majority of drugs and AAS cycles have zero use for an AI.

AI's are mainly popular for use in NON AAS cycles, ie, Testosterone only cycles . but for guys that use AAS cycles and stacks an AI is rarely needed as most AAS don't aromatize to estrogen (testosterone is a natural occurring androgenic aromatizing hormone , NOT an AAS/anabolic steroid ).
and quite often for guys that are utilizing testosterone with their AAS cycles, its added in to purposely get the estrogen conversion out of it (as estrogen is a vital hormone for muscle building and sexual function). so why take an AI and blunt whats trying to be accomplished

[EDCG19]

I don't take an AI (except in some rare circumstances) , plenty of other guys like Obs blasts high dosages and don't take AI's either. and No taking AI's is NOT recommended unless your estrogen sensitive and gyno prone (and even then if your are its best to simply not run estrogenic compounds).. 90% of the steroids we have access to don't even aromatize into estrogen in the first place . you can run 20 cycles per year with 20 different compounds and never need an AI .

the people that recommend them are generally guys on TRT or blast test only cycles . which is a different subject all together then AAS use. AI's makes sense for guys that need to keep normal blood serum levels of estrogen (but for a lot of AAS users and abusers, this is not the case)


the people who recommend AI usage the most are the drug dealers, who make the highest amount of profit margins on AI's then anything else. they propose guys take AI's with every cycle . which is ridiculous and totally not warranted (as again most steroids don't convert to estrogen in the first place)

Ok, I understand what you mean but why would someone on TRT need to take an AI than? It seems like every few months im switching this whole thing up since i kind of dont like using AI but i do anyway
So, is there any real need to take an AI at all if you're on a good moderate dose of test?

I'm on150mg t/e per week and usually i do take an ai but everyone in a while i take a few months off to see how i feel
So with dex .25mg x2 a week my e2 is between 17-22
without dex and only on 150 test per week than my e2 shoots up to about 50-60 and that is in the high range right but looking at this from a different perspective would you run an ai while on TRT just to keep the estrogen low enough that you dont have estrogen issues or does it really not matter if your e2 is 20 or 50??

[Obs]

Ok, I understand what you mean but why would someone on TRT need to take an AI than? It seems like every few months im switching this whole thing up since i kind of dont like using AI but i do anyway
So, is there any real need to take an AI at all if you're on a good moderate dose of test?

I'm on150mg t/e per week and usually i do take an ai but everyone in a while i take a few months off to see how i feel
So with dex .25mg x2 a week my e2 is between 17-22
without dex and only on 150 test per week than my e2 shoots up to about 50-60 and that is in the high range right but looking at this from a different perspective would you run an ai while on TRT just to keep the estrogen low enough that you dont have estrogen issues or does it really not matter if your e2 is 20 or 50??

I read about the vodka/eyedropper method of dissolving AI and I think its funny as hell personally.

Guys do it to find balance.
When you are blasting 10 x the dosage of natty test or more though wouldnt you expect the same of estrogen? Kinda balance it out?