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Thread: ESTROGEN - The other Anabolic Hormone

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    ESTROGEN - The other Anabolic Hormone

    Estrogen is anabolic and helps build muscle –

    I’m not posting this to debate or argue with anyone. Its simply a post to perhaps enlighten some of the guys that never considered this topic and have only heard otherwise (ie, that estrogen is a female hormone and will cause you to become weak and girly).

    First off I’ll go right to the science , then after that I’ll give my own thoughts and the ‘bro-science’ .

    In the 1980s a study was done on farm animals (sheep and cattle). The purpose really for the ranchers was to see how they could get more LBM, ie, meat, out of a single animal before it was sent to be butchered. They injected the animals with Estrogen. Some of the results were

    - Total weight gain and feed efficiency improved 15% in animals that were injected with Estrogen. The weight gain was from more protein and less body fat (ie., LBM increase)
    - Anabolic actions such as protein synthesis, nitrogen retention, etc. occurred in these animals
    - 33% more protein was deposited in animals that were given synthetic estrogen and they also had 18% less body fat then animals that did not receive the estrogen. The animals who were given the estrogen had a significant increase in protein synthesis.
    - Higher levels of growth hormone , insuln, and glucose, were found in the animals that were given estrogen. All of which hormones promote anabolism and muscle growth.


    The Cattle that received Estrogen built muscle more efficiently and were essentially bigger and way more jacked (having more muscle and less fat) then the cattle that did not receive estrogen injections.

    I’ll post a clip from this study in another post


    So, estrogen is anabolic in animals and helps build muscle (a reason why ranchers inject estrogen into their cattle to this day). What about humans?

    I have written a ton of posts about this on here , so a lot of you guys have heard my arguments. Here is just a small snip from someone more educated then myself (having a PHD in Pharmaceutical Chemisty as well as a Medical Doctor).

    “”” We all know that estrogen is important for having good cardiovascular health. It's associated with lower blood pressure and better cholesterol profiles. It is also known for preserving bone in postmenopausal women. What may be news to you is this bone preservation is secondary to estrogen preserving the muscle! Post-pmenupausal women lose muscle without hormone replacement therapy. As the muscle decreases the bones get softer because there is no structural need to withstand the forces of the now smaller muscles. So if it preserves muscle...
    I'm totally serious, it can and here's how. There are 2 estrogen receptors: ER-alpha and ER-beta. After muscle damaging, exercise rats were injected with estradiol. I am shocked to report that satellite cells were recruited upon ER-alpha binding and IGF-1 levels increased after ER-beta binding. This means estrogen acts on its own receptor in tandem with testosterone to synergistically facilitate cell growth and splitting. In other words, estrogen gets you more muscle cells and makes the ones you have bigger.
    Additionally, in an unknown mechanism, estrogen helps reduce inflammation to damaged muscles. Another interesting finding was that the absence of ER - alpha resulted in less GLUT4 expression. GLUT4 is the insulin receptor found in muscle. This means estrogen helps shuttle in nutrients to the muscle for growth by helping insulin, a powerful anabolic hormone, bind to muscle. Along with its direct signaling for muscle growth and it driving growth nutrients into the cells, estrogen as we know is a 'wet' hormone. It causes your body weight to rise as you hold on to more water.
    What this means for muscle growth is more intramuscular water stretches the fascia that surrounds the muscle, making your pumps greater and increasing the capacity of the muscle to hold that pump. More pump, bigger muscle.
    This makes sense if you look at the bro science. Wet steroids like testosterone and deca help you put on more muscle than the dryer variants that don’t aromatize “””

    I’ll add some more of my own opinions and findings here in other posts, as this one is getting rather lengthy.
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    We all know that Testosterone is the 'parent' hormone that converts into the body to both Estrogen and DHT . Estrogen is said to be the female hormone promoting feminine traits and DHT is the male hormone making masculine traits.

    Ok, now there may be some truth to this. But which one of these hormones can actually build muscle , which one is anabolic to muscle tissue ?
    the male hormone DHT or the 'female' hormone Estrogen.

    Well lets look at DHT. (dihydrotestosterone). DHT has NO ability to be anabolic on muscle tissue itself. This is due to the enzyme in muscle tissue, 3-hydroxysteroid-dehydrogenase, which binds to DHT and deactivates it making it unable to activate and bind to muscle tissue whatsoever.

    Estrogen on the other hand has no such enzyme to deactivate it in muscle tissue. Rather the opposite takes place. Estrogen activates receptors in muscle tissue to stimulate satellite cell proliferation as well as increase IGF.


    before anyone thinks about going and shooting themselves up with Estrogen. let me point out that in males, Estrogen illicits most of its anabolic effects in the PRESENCE OF ELEVATED ANDROGENS . what does this mean? it means estrogen becomes super Anabolic mainly when being combined with supra-physiolgical dosages of androgens (ie., steroids ) .

    this is one reason why I always promoted for guys that are not E sensitive that wanted to grow and put on size, that they run their steroid stacks and limit AI use to allow for elevated blood levels of estrogen so that high androgen effect can bring about the anabolic effects of estrogen.
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    ZXY2 is offline "Retired"
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    I am not E sensitive at all.
    I currently run heavy doses of multiple steroid without any AI.

    I keep them on hand with nolva and caber but I have had the same batch for almost two years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    I am not E sensitive at all.
    I currently run heavy doses of multiple steroid without any AI.

    I keep them on hand with nolva and caber but I have had the same batch for almost two years.
    How high do you let your estrogen get? I could start a whole other conversation about that lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    I am not E sensitive at all.
    I currently run heavy doses of multiple steroid without any AI.

    I keep them on hand with nolva and caber but I have had the same batch for almost two years.
    well no wonder your looking so damn big lately !

    if I was a betting man, I'd bet on this --

    The guys in high school that didn't really show any super genetics for bodybuilding , yet had fast metabolisms and were probably a lean and stringy 140 pounds ,, YET were NOT estrogen sensitive at all , are the same guys who train for years and blast cycles without AI's and grow into the 260 pound monsters.
    Its their 'genetic' component of not being sensitive to estrogen and their ability to run cycle after cycle year after year with higher levels of androgens and estrogen that allows them to put on the size . where as the guys that are super sensitive to estrogen and get gyno just by looking at a Dbol pill that struggle to put on the size and that have to run an AI with the smallest of AAS use. These guys don't grow near as well (unless they had other genetic gifts)

    just a thought
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    ESTROGEN - The other Anabolic Hormone

    Lots of folks have a false understanding of the role estrogen plays. I hear so many guys say you need it to be in normal range. If you do that you won’t grow as well and you probably will suffer low e symptoms. The reality is if your testosterone is three time normal range then your estrogen needs to be balanced too. 120 really isn’t high if your total T us over 3,000 ng/dL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Active View Post
    Lots of folks have a false understanding of the role estrogen plays. I hear so many guys say you need it to be in normal range. If you do that you won’t grow as well and you probably will suffer low e symptoms. The reality is if your testosterone is three time normal range then your estrogen needs to be balanced too. 120 really isn’t high if your total T us over 3,000 ng/dL
    '

    exactly . I always tell guys the "normal range" for hormones on a blood test is for "normal people" . injecting a gram a test a week is not normal so that 'normal range' does not apply to you

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    '

    exactly . I always tell guys the "normal range" for hormones on a blood test is for "normal people" . injecting a gram a test a week is not normal so that 'normal range' does not apply to you
    Yes sir to many people get wrapped up in what is normal for trt
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    well no wonder your looking so damn big lately !

    if I was a betting man, I'd bet on this --

    The guys in high school that didn't really show any super genetics for bodybuilding , yet had fast metabolisms and were probably a lean and stringy 140 pounds ,, YET were NOT estrogen sensitive at all , are the same guys who train for years and blast cycles without AI's and grow into the 260 pound monsters.
    Its their 'genetic' component of not being sensitive to estrogen and their ability to run cycle after cycle year after year with higher levels of androgens and estrogen that allows them to put on the size . where as the guys that are super sensitive to estrogen and get gyno just by looking at a Dbol pill that struggle to put on the size and that have to run an AI with the smallest of AAS use. These guys don't grow near as well (unless they had other genetic gifts)

    just a thought
    Thanks first off...

    Secondly I know there is a factor that correlates.
    My bloods have come back perfect after blasting with very short down time intervals after about two years. In that time I have run winny, dbol, anadrol , every form of injectable test but undecanoate, npp, deca , tren a and E, masteron , and I am surely forgetting things.
    They have been heavy cycles. I folloed an AI reginent for a very short time in the beggining.

    I get a gyno lump with slight slight lactationupon squeeze and I knock it away with caber and nolva once in a while. I have extrordinary metabolism and almost cannot get over 17% with zero cardio with my work as the exception (very strenuos at times others sedentary for weeks).

    I am not saying I am anything big or special but I do believe estrogen tolerance correlates to more gain.
    I seem to grow a lot about every blast but every six moths with no rhyme or reason I really hit a good stride and this can come at any point during a blast.

    I dont advocate my methods.
    I see it as something I do to suit my needs best. It might potentially really screw someone up. Anyone who tries something like I do without the proper knowledge of what to do if something goes wrong and is not prepared... That is their fault.

    I do know that no pro ever stayed inside a saftey zone.
    They ventured out gradually and learned what they could and could not do as well as what worked best for them.
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    Aye..... Forgot to mention....

    I am on trt for life.
    Last time I cycled I my levels were screwed after pct.
    I started trt and never looked back.

    I knew the risk.
    I will also lose my hair sooner rather than later and have atrophied testes.

    I simply would not trade for doing what I love. I pay the price gladly. I knew all the possibilities before I started back and I was done having kids.

    You get nowhere without sacrifice of many sorts though. Individuals reading this trying to learn can take this to heart and weigh their own options. Thats called being an adult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Aye..... Forgot to mention....

    I am on trt for life.
    Last time I cycled I my levels were screwed after pct.
    I started trt and never looked back.

    I knew the risk.
    I will also lose my hair sooner rather than later and have atrophied testes.

    I simply would not trade for doing what I love. I pay the price gladly. I knew all the possibilities before I started back and I was done having kids.

    You get nowhere without sacrifice of many sorts though. Individuals reading this trying to learn can take this to heart and weigh their own options. Thats called being an adult.
    I stopped fighting it years ago and started shaving my head. Hair isn’t really cool anymore anyway man
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Active View Post
    Hair isn’t really cool anymore anyway man

    Wait.....what?
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    ESTROGEN - The other Anabolic Hormone

    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Wait.....what?
    Lmao not many bb’s have hair man. I almost always wear a hat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Active View Post
    I stopped fighting it years ago and started shaving my head. Hair isn’t really cool anymore anyway man
    I use the same girl to cut my hair and she noticed it was thinning.

    I saw my Dad after not seeing him for months.
    I was studying his hairline and realized, mine is already further receded and thinner.
    He has clint eastwoods exact hairline, but I look like someone shave off the front inch or so.

    I am definitely gonna be a goofy looking bald guy lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    I use the same girl to cut my hair and she noticed it was thinning.

    I saw my Dad after not seeing him for months.
    I was studying his hairline and realized, mine is already further receded and thinner.
    He has clint eastwoods exact hairline, but I look like someone shave off the front inch or so.

    I am definitely gonna be a goofy looking bald guy lol
    Lmao you just get used to wearing a hat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Active View Post
    Lmao you just get used to wearing a hat?
    Every time I take it off I see hair and yeah I probably will just leave it on eventually

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Every time I take it off I see hair and yeah I probably will just leave it on eventually
    I have a huge collection of hats now. I really like the Monsta hats from Monsta clothing. The fitted ones feel just right
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Active View Post
    I have a huge collection of hats now. I really like the Monsta hats from Monsta clothing. The fitted ones feel just right
    I am a nike dri-fit hat fan.
    They are so damn light, breathable, and stain resistant.
    I hand wash them in detergent in the sink. Look new every time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    I am a nike dri-fit hat fan.
    They are so damn light, breathable, and stain resistant.
    I hand wash them in detergent in the sink. Look new every time
    I do like those hats. They have a nice low profile front
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    just a couple more interesting tidbits about estrogens anabolic side

    - I've heard someone say that high estrogen is a bad thing while on cycle because it "competes'' for androgen receptors and will degrade the effects of Testosterone .. ok, for one thing the whole "compete for receptors" thing is a myth and not biologically accurate. for another, just the opposite is true . ESTROGEN ACTUALLY SENSITIZES ANDROGEN RECEPTORS. Thats a huge benefit especially for guys that blast and cruise.

    - I've heard someone say that using an AI is better then using a SERM cause the AI keeps blood levels of estrogen low, and a SERM only stops estrogen at receptors sites while allowing blood levels of estrogen to elevate .. umm well its hard to get the elevated anabolic benefits of estrogen if we are purposely keeping blood levels down (thats like getting on cycle and purposely wanting to keep total test levels down lol).
    ELEVATED BLOOD LEVELS OF ESTROGEN PASSING THROUGH THE LIVER STIMULATES THE PRODUCTION OF IGF . It also stimulates the pituitary and the production of GH release.

    so we have better androgen receptor sensitivity and more IGF and HGH. so how is this 'anabolic' .

    well IGF triggers the up regulation of muscle satellite cells. newly formed cells, in the presence of elevated androgens *, will possess a higher number of androgen receptor sites.
    these newly formed cells with their higher number of androgen receptor sites will have a higher capacity in the future to respond to AAS use.

    so what do you know, E is indirectly making androgen receptors more sensitive in the first place, plus creating more muscle cells with more androgen receptors for it to make those cells more sensitive as well.

    you should be able to see how over the long term this is going to equate to a lot more muscle mass..

    * note- keep in mind I stated earlier that the anabolic effects of estrogen work much better in males in the presence of elevated androgens
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    Wow!! Thank you for this thread!! I've heard others recently talk about how important estrogen is for building muscle. I'll definitely be looking further into this myself. I actually have a feeling I might be estrogen sensitive but I was going to take nolvadex through my first cycle anyway, at least until I got bloods done and could go from there. If anything, this just makes me more confident in my decision (haven't started yet) to only run 350-400mg test for my first cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcânn View Post
    Wow!! Thank you for this thread!! I've heard others recently talk about how important estrogen is for building muscle. I'll definitely be looking further into this myself. I actually have a feeling I might be estrogen sensitive but I was going to take nolvadex through my first cycle anyway, at least until I got bloods done and could go from there. If anything, this just makes me more confident in my decision (haven't started yet) to only run 350-400mg test for my first cycle.
    well I think your making the right decision by starting out with Nolvadex on cycle rather then going straight to an AI, especially if overall growth is the goal of you running a cycle. the benefit there is that, unlike an AI, nolva will not limit/lower overall estrogen and thus limit its anabolic effects, it will simply block estrogen receptors at sites such as breast and fat tissue (but not estrogen receptor sites in the liver and muscle tissue for example). so you'll be blocking the negative sides of having too much estrogen while reaping the anabolic benefits of having elevated estrogen
    (note: estrogen levels are SUPPOSED TO go up as androgen levels go up from taking exogenous hormones, thats the way the body was designed to work, and there is an anabolic synergy between elevated androgens and estrogen)

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    Fantastic post and exactly what I’ve found anecdotally myself.

    Edit to elaborate:
    My first cycle I had a gyno scare, but fantastic gains. From there out I high doses ai out of fear of gyno. My next few cycles were not as great, I wondered what was holding back my gains. When I finally tried cutting my ai back to only what was necessary, I found my gains again.
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    Just as long as you have a good estrogen testosterone balance. I know some guys that just can’t cycle without an ai cause the sides are so bad. It just depends on how we respond.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Wait.....what?
    No shit....... whaaaaat? I just cut the braid out of my beard and trimmed my beard back short (The white hairs were getting on my nerves. Now I hear that my thick ginger hair and braid down my back that I was proud of is out of style/all wrong for a 54 year old man?
    Well, crap!!!!!
    Last edited by almostgone; 10-01-2018 at 06:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    No shit....... whaaaaat? I just cut the braid out of my beard and trimmed my beard back short (The white hairs were getting on my nerves. Now I hear that my thick ginger hair and braid down my back that I was proud of is out of style/all wrong for a 54 year old man?
    Well, crap!!!!!
    This is how I picture you.
    ESTROGEN -  The other Anabolic Hormone-1b0409e6-ea35-40f3-b7b2-db9474ae5c7b.jpeg
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    Excellent read! I'll be using nolvadex instead of Arimidex my next cycle of test and deca .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capebuffalo View Post
    This is how I picture you.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1B0409E6-EA35-40F3-B7B2-DB9474AE5C7B.jpeg 
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    Actually not too far off if there is more ink involved.
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    almost forget to post the animal study--

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/782874

    The anabolic effect of estrogens on nitrogen metabolism of growing and finishing cattle and sheep.

    Estrogenic compounds are effective in stimulating live weight gains and improving feed efficiency of growing and finishing ruminants. With the proper use of diethylstilbestrol or estradiol, weight gain and feed efficiency are improved approximately 15 and 12 percent, respectively. The administration of estrogenic substances to finishing cattle or sheep results in heavier carcasses containing more protein and moisture and less fat. Estrogens do not appreciably affect rumen fermentation or digestibility of the diet but improve the utilization of the absorbed nutrients. Evidence to support the concept that the increased weight gained with estrogen treatment is the result of anabolic reactions includes a decrease in plasma urea, decrease in plasma levels of most of the essential amino-acids, decreased excretion of urea and total nitrogen in the urine and increased retention of nitrogen, phosphorus and calcium. There is no change in body water space or tubular reabsorption of urea in sheep treated with diethylstilbestrol to account for some of these observations. More direct evidence that estrogens exert their major influence on nitrogen metabolism in the body and more specifically on protein synthesis comes from an experiment where cattle fed diethylstilbestrol deposited 33 percent more protein and 18 percent less fat in body weight gain as compared with control animals. The use of the hormone resulted in a significant improvement in the efficiency of utilizing dietary protein for body gain and a slight decrease in the efficiency of converting dietary energy to body gain. Enlargement of the pituitary, thyroid and adrenal glands and higher plasma levels of growth hormone , insulin and glucose have been found in experiments designed to study the effect of estrogens on the endocrine system of ruminants. These studies, along with the observation that an intact pituitary gland is necessary for estrogens to increase nitrogen retention in sheep, support the theory that estrogens are anabolic in ruminants because of increased secretion of growth hormone by the anterior pituitary. If follows that the increased secretion of growth hormone results in increased blood glucose which then stimulates secretion of insulin. Both growth hormone and insulin would be stimulatory to protein synthesis. This theory of the mode of action is further supported by the findings that injections of growth hormone closely resemble the effects of diethylstilbestrol on nitrogen retention and blood metabolites in sheep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Active View Post
    Just as long as you have a good estrogen testosterone balance.
    agree. thats why I like to qualify a lot of my 'estrogen is anabolic ' statements with "in the presence of elevated androgens" . the ratio of one to the other is vital.

    having for example, elevated androgen levels while at the same time as having declining estrogen levels (the body was not designed to work that way) , usually results in a hormonal crash and causes many negative side effects .. this happens a lot with newer guys who jump on their first cycle of Test and take an AI from day one at too high a dosage. there E levels fall off while their test levels rise. they end up with all the symptoms of low test and high E , feel lethargic, no libido, erection issues, etc.. and they think their test is bunk . all the while it was the AI that caused the problem.

    also the opposite, having way too high of estrogen , while androgen levels decline. what happens is you become hormonally estrogen dominant. You don't have enough androgens to off set the E and amplify its anabolic and positive effects. this is where estrogen acts more like a 'female hormone', (ie, when androgens are low) and your likely to put on estrogen related body fat as well as gyno.
    this scenario often times happens at the end of an AAS cycle, when guys come off the androgens but E remains elevated. its actually the end phase of a cycle that an AI becomes the most handy. not the beginning phase (as per my last example)

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    @wyatt

    That would be exactly what I would recommend!
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    Question for you GH. We may have spoken about this long ago via pm but like Dr. Ford, I can't remember for sure...

    Many times I've run low dose nolva on cycle (10 mgs) along with a minimal amount of adex as I am gyno sensitive. I agree with your logic that elevated E on cycle allows for elevated GH - IGF-1 levels. That said, how do you factor in nolva's known ability to degrade IGF-1 levels? I'm fully aware that it's dose dependant but I'm curious about your thoughts on this and whether it's simply that a greatly elevated E2 level will compensate for the degradation of IGF-1 via nolva.

    kel
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    agree. thats why I like to qualify a lot of my 'estrogen is anabolic ' statements with "in the presence of elevated androgens" . the ratio of one to the other is vital.

    having for example, elevated androgen levels while at the same time as having declining estrogen levels (the body was not designed to work that way) , usually results in a hormonal crash and causes many negative side effects .. this happens a lot with newer guys who jump on their first cycle of Test and take an AI from day one at too high a dosage. there E levels fall off while their test levels rise. they end up with all the symptoms of low test and high E , feel lethargic, no libido, erection issues, etc.. and they think their test is bunk . all the while it was the AI that caused the problem.

    also the opposite, having way too high of estrogen , while androgen levels decline. what happens is you become hormonally estrogen dominant. You don't have enough androgens to off set the E and amplify its anabolic and positive effects. this is where estrogen acts more like a 'female hormone', (ie, when androgens are low) and your likely to put on estrogen related body fat as well as gyno.
    this scenario often times happens at the end of an AAS cycle, when guys come off the androgens but E remains elevated. its actually the end phase of a cycle that an AI becomes the most handy. not the beginning phase (as per my last example)
    So if I'm correct, what you're saying is that at the end of a cycle, like after your last pin but before PCT, your testosterone drops, but your estrogen doesn't drop as quickly? And that's why you should take an AI then?

    I ask because my main two concerns are gyno (which I feel I'm probably susceptible to since I think I might already slightly have it without cycling) and acne. And I know acne is caused by hormonal shifts, but most people seem to get it during or after PCT. This has me thinking that maybe the main cause of that is the test going down while estrogen stays higher. Or any many people's case who use too much AI, their test was up while E2 was down, then going towards PCT, maybe they stop both test and AI and as their test falls, though still high, their E2 raises and eventually goes above their test? Which could also explain why PCT is so hard for some.

    These are just thoughts I'm having as I'm reading this though, so I'd appreciate more experienced people than myself to chime in on that

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Question for you GH. We may have spoken about this long ago via pm but like Dr. Ford, I can't remember for sure...

    Many times I've run low dose nolva on cycle (10 mgs) along with a minimal amount of adex as I am gyno sensitive. I agree with your logic that elevated E on cycle allows for elevated GH - IGF-1 levels. That said, how do you factor in nolva's known ability to degrade IGF-1 levels? I'm fully aware that it's dose dependant but I'm curious about your thoughts on this and whether it's simply that a greatly elevated E2 level will compensate for the degradation of IGF-1 via nolva.

    kel

    These are my thoughts on Nolvadex usage and IGF

    - The original studies that were done testing Nolvadex impact on IGF were done on women. and yes there was an impact.
    HOWEVER . there is a big difference between a women (producing very little androgens at all) , and a man who is supplementing with supra-physiological levels of androgens (ie, a steroid user , whose androgen levels are going to be upwards of 500+ times higher then the women tested).

    I believe that the super elevated androgen levels, PLUS the elevated estrogen levels found within steroid using men is going to way way way more counter balance the limited decrease in IGF levels that Nolva may cause.
    the offset is that these elevated levels within steroid using men, even if using Nolva, is going to result in much more IGF and other growth factors anyhow.

    Lets say Nolva lowers your IGF by 10% . but the elevated androgens elevates IGF by 10%, the elevated estrogen thats there from the aromatization of the androgens elevates it another 10%, then the secondary factors like elevated HGH (from elevated androgens and estrogens) raise it another 5%, then the diet while on a cycle consisting of lots of carbs and spikes in insulin may elevate it another 5% , then we have the steroids like winstrol and Dbol that directly elevate IGF in the liver when the liver deactivates the steroid from its c17-alkalation (ie, when the steroid is broken down and utilized) that may increase IGF another 5% .

    I could keep going but my point here is that the steroid users % for IGF increase are going to keep going up far out weighing the limited effect that Nolva would have on IGF levels at low doses like 10mg

    couple more random points

    - in women with breast cancer lowering IGF is perhaps a good thing. They have very little estrogen (thats the point of the drugs they are on) and very little total estrogen will result in much lower IGF levels. and for them, low estrogen and low IGF means low growth of cancer cells (but for us, that means low growth of muscle cells)

    Steroid using Men on the other hand, especially when taking highly aromatizing drugs like test and dbol (with no AI) will have LOTS of estrogen in their blood stream. even if taking Nolva, which will simply blunt E from certain receptors in certain ways only (its a SERM - 'Selective' Estrogen Receptor Modulator) and won't lower total blood levels of estrogen , which means, even when taking Nolva, we will have estrogen available to pass through the liver and produce/elevate IGF levels (not so with the women tested in the study).

    - and if there is still a worry about IGF, we can substitute Nolva with Torem Citrate (which works as a SERM in a very similar way to Nolva, yet does not have the lowering IGF effects on women that Nolva does)


    just my thoughts and opinion off the top my head. but we can definitely look into more 'science' of this stuff as its all pretty fascinating
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 10-03-2018 at 01:57 PM.
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  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcânn View Post
    So if I'm correct, what you're saying is that at the end of a cycle, like after your last pin but before PCT, your testosterone drops, but your estrogen doesn't drop as quickly? And that's why you should take an AI then?
    yes. you don't want your androgen levels to drop off suddenly while E remains high. Plus its the best time to lower Estrogen because its Estrogen that is keeping your HPTA shut down and from telling your testes to produce more test. So the quicker you can get E levels lowered going into PCT then the better chance of recovering natty test production you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcânn View Post
    I ask because my main two concerns are gyno (which I feel I'm probably susceptible to since I think I might already slightly have it without cycling) and acne. And I know acne is caused by hormonal shifts, but most people seem to get it during or after PCT. This has me thinking that maybe the main cause of that is the test going down while estrogen stays higher. Or any many people's case who use too much AI, their test was up while E2 was down, then going towards PCT, maybe they stop both test and AI and as their test falls, though still high, their E2 raises and eventually goes above their test? Which could also explain why PCT is so hard for some.
    Lots of guys develop gyno when coming off of cycle (even though they had very little signs of it while on cycle). This again is because of falling androgen levels along side very elevated E levels . for guys that are NOT estrogen or gyno sensitive, they can tolerate and do very will with elevated estrogen levels BUT while their androgen levels are elevated.

    In fact , there are some guys who run Halotestin at any signs of gyno onsetting. Why would they run Halo ? Because its one of the most Androgenic compounds out there. Its 8+ times more androgenic then test. Something that androgenic can 'offset' negative estrogen side effects.
    note- I'm not recommending Halo for gyno, there are much better methods. I'm only making a point about androgens and high estrogen being in balance for 'synergy'.


    as for Acne - well thats one of the most difficult ones. for those who are prone to acne there are multiple causes and multiple factors. Any time you have a massive influx or change of hormones you can get flare ups. some guys are super sensitive to DHT and get acne that way. Some guys detoxify their body through their skin, and being AAS produce more skin oil they get acne that way.
    theres not a whole lot you can do.
    really depending on your situation and what effects you.. lets say you've heard that too high of estrogen causes acne (but unknowingly your acne was from DHT), So you take a high dose of an AI to lower E and perhaps even Proviron . Well now you have more testosterone available to convert into DHT (because its not converting to estrogen) and you have more 'free test' on top of that and thus even more DHT conversion. So your acne just got a whole lot worse.
    its trial and error and really person dependent here

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    Wyatt 88 is offline Junior Member
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    So if you choose to take Nova on cycle instead of an AI elevated estrogen levels shouldn't be much of a concern (no negative side affects involved) because they're just floating around in their not getting through?

    Thanks in advance.

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    ESTROGEN - The other Anabolic Hormone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyatt 88 View Post
    So if you choose to take Nova on cycle instead of an AI elevated estrogen levels shouldn't be much of a concern (no negative side affects involved) because they're just floating around in their not getting through?

    Thanks in advance.
    No elevated estrogen can cause all kinds of other issues. What these guys are saying is to manage it. Keep it a a good balanced level fir growth. Not to drive it down to a trt level or back to just normal range. If your testosterone level is 3x the norm then your estrogen will probably be somewhere at 90-120 pg/dL

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    Wyatt 88 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bio-Active View Post
    No elevated estrogen can cause all kinds of other issues. What these guys are saying is to manage it. Keep it a a good balanced level fir growth. Not to drive it down to a trt level or back to just normal range. If your testosterone level is 3x the norm then your estrogen will probably be somewhere at 90-120 pg/dL
    Ok got it. Like you said earlier keep your testosterone in balance with your estrogen. I was just having trouble figuring out the ratio.

    TY

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    balance is offline Associate Member
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    Quick question

    Say running a trt (hi range) test e around 300mg per week. Only side effect noted is occasional elevated bp around 135/85, and some minor bloat. Would it be at all feasible to consider bp medication vs an ai, or better to go the normal ai route?

    Thank you

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by balance View Post
    Quick question

    Say running a trt (hi range) test e around 300mg per week. Only side effect noted is occasional elevated bp around 135/85, and some minor bloat. Would it be at all feasible to consider bp medication vs an ai, or better to go the normal ai route?

    Thank you
    I'm guessing your TRT is self administered and not Doc supervised, and that your not on life long test of 300mg per week . just something your running for the time being ?

    with a blood pressure like that and especially being its only 'occasional' , I would not take any major measures at all besides adjusting my diet and supplementation. you could simply have an electrolyte imbalance and need to adjust your calcium, magnesium, zinc, etc. and bp will be fine. or perhaps your nutrition is off. or maybe your holding just a bit of water and lower carbs and an herbal diuretic for a week would help.

    300mg of week of test for most guys won't require an AI (unless they are super E sensitive or running AI's simply to try to maintain a dryer harder appearance year round). OR are on doctor supervised TRT, not running gear, or 'cruising' and they want to maintain their E levels within a certain range.

    having said that - I'm on blood pressure meds daily (actually like the one I'm taking a lot) , but I rarely take an AI even at 1.5 grams of test a week

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