I've been seeing more about running Nolva throughout a cycle. Is there any downside to this?
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I've been seeing more about running Nolva throughout a cycle. Is there any downside to this?
I currently use it when i run dbol in my cycle, been on 10mg/day for 4weeks now along with 0.125mg aromasin.
Feel littlebit more tired than usual from the nolvadex, but nothing i cant handle.
Theoretically, yes. Nolvadex will reduce IGF-1 and do nothing to address estrogenic sides barring gyno. You will also hear that Nolva will sensitize PGR receptors and can cause additional issues with 19nors, something where your AI has no such problems.
Now a few more thoughts:
The advantage to AI vs Nolva is that your AI will prevent gyno AND keep estrogen in check.
You'll see every time when someone reports beginnings of gyno Nolva is recommended vs an AI because there is solid evidence it can reverse some of the gyno and certainly stop more from occurring.
Now.... over here in experience and reality land... I have personally run Nolva through a couple of cycles and it works just fine, with no out-of-hand bloat or BP issues to report during those cycles. Do keep in mind that these are just my personal experiences and my cycles in question involved lower doses than a lot of what you see on this board. However, lots of experienced lifters doing more than 250 or 350 of test find Nolva totally adequate. I think there is a tendency for people to overdo it with their AI, whereas Nolva won't bomb your estro levels like that if you get triggerhappy.
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Originally Posted by Couchlockd
so I can come back to it and read it later without searching through the very unreliable search engine on this websiteQuote:
Originally Posted by KennyJ
My gutfeel would say it migth degrade its effect on the pituary gland in the pct, when u need it the most, when running it on cycle.
Always use as little drugs as possible. At the end of the day, its the total which deceides your future of health.
But hey, some say nolva IS healthy cause its good for HDL cholestrol. And many "experts" say your cholestrol profile is important. Im not among them.
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The main downside to Nolva that I know about is that it lowers IGF-1 production.
IMO the only time it's beneficial to run nolva over an ai is if one is purposely utilizing higher estrogen during a bulk because as our good friend Gearheaded has pointed out, estrogen is actually very anabolic and there are advantages to keeping it high. A good example of this is if you wanna run dbol on a bulk and want to use its high rate of aromatization to your advantage, one could run nolva to prevent gyno and let the increased estrogen aid their bulk....although nolva will do nothing for the bloat so you WILL be bloated to an extent depending on how clean your diet is, but when bulking it's not optimal IME to eat super clean.
So, the takeaway is nolva does hinder gains by decreasing IGF-1 production so for most people, most of the time, an AI will be a better option to manage estrogen. The one situation where it would make sense to run nolva over an AI is if one specifically WANTS to utilize higher estrogen levels for growth during a "wet" bulk like when running dbol, test and other aromatizing compounds.
Or - if your damn gyno just sprouts back when it wants
Currently running 250mg a week of cyp & under 50mg a day of Var - shit randomly returned, again
Right now I'm back on 10mg's a day split in two
But, to run it prior to sides I'd say is a waste or a bit of overkill
IF Nolva does nothing for estrogenic sides other then gyno , then why do women use it in contest prep ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernst
the reason its used by women (and men) in contest prep leading up to a show is because it does a lot more then just limit gyno (though its popular for only that on the forums). Nolva blunts estrogenic effects at the receptor sites (not just breast tissue receptors) . it blunts estrogen effects in regards to water retention as well as estrogenic based fat storage (common in hips, thighs, and lower stomach).
its simple.. if your blocking estrogen at receptor sites, then your blocking estrogenic effects , period.
a very basic way to think about Nolvadex is to think of it as an estrogen itself (it technically is). as an estrogen it is going to bind to and occupy estrogen receptors thus blocking actual E2 (more powerful forms of estrogen) from binding. this is going to have whole body effects, and not just at the breast tissue like some guys think .. and again is why Nolva is used by women in contest prep to help limit fat storage and obtain a more dry hard appearance.
as for the bro myth that Nolva limits IGF and is therefore going to hinder your gains.
keep in mind the original findings that Nolva can lower IGF was found in women with breast cancer. the small decrease in IGF in these women with cancer is considered a good thing (elevated IGF will make cancer grow). it was to the drug companies benefit to exaggerate and promote these findings.
however, when you compare the dosage of Nolva these women were taking, and compare that to a maintenance dose of Nolva that a man who is on AAS is taking the idea that a small dent in IGF output would make any difference what so ever to the man is laughable. He's running a low dose of Nolva which would probably not even lower IGF, and even if it did he is on so much other growth factors (AAS, HGH, even IGF itself) its not going to make a bit of difference.
its like removing a cup of sand from the beach.. sure the beach has less sand now, but you really think that changes anything with the entire beach. no.
Nolva is not going to lower IGF to any degree for a man on AAS that it would hinder gains in any way shape or form.
ask Jordan Peters if Nolva limited his gains. he went from 120 pounds to 310 pounds utilizing Nolva as his anti estrogen.
looks to me like the gains were there despite the nolva usage :)
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note: NO nolvadex is not as pronounced an anti estrogen in its anti bloat or drying effects as something like Letro which will get serum levels of estrogen down to zero . but its still much more then just a gyno prevention drug.. obvioulsy it can't compete with zero estrogen levels (cause again it doesn't lower estrogen in the body, it only blunts its effects). BUT low serum levels of estrogen is not exactly healthy and low estrogen will hinder gains (much more then a supposed decrease in IGF from nolva).
Nolva limits some of the negative effects of estrogen at the receptor level. yet allows for aromatization and a good healthy amount of blood serum levels of estrogen. so you block the bad effects essentially, but it allows for the good effects of elevated estrogen in the blood (ie, more estrogen to pass through the liver and promote HDL production, increase HGH, increase IGF, etc.)
another consideration regarding Nolva "possibly" hindering gains because of decrease IGF..
Nolva was found to slightly decrease hepatic output of IGF in women taking a fairly high dosage. true, but keep in mind that the muscle cell itself (independent of liver output) has the ability to produce and utilize IGF. so just because your liver is not producing as much IGF for your whole body, does not mean it will hinder gains when the muscle is producing its own IGF for itself.
IF nolva somehow limited the muscles ability to utilize IGF , then we can assume it may hinder gains. but just because you liver is producing slightly less IGF itself does not mean the muscle is in any way limited.
then of course there is the fact that if your on a cycle and using AAS anyways , then that is more then super compensating for any slight decrease in hepatic output of IGF
worrying that Nolva may be limiting your gains due to decrease IGF production is like worrying about picking up pennies while stopping over million dollar bills
With all this being said, should we all incorporate nolva throughout every cycle unless we are wanting more water retention?Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
and on the other hand , running too much AI and lowering estrogen down too much will no doubt hinder gains as well as negatively impact your health .
I personally think the reason you see guys that have been running cycles for years, yet are only 160 pounds and when wearing a t shirt you can't tell that they even lift , is because they have been told over and over again on forums they need to run a decent amount of an AI on every cycle that they do and start the AI from day one. they are hindering their growth potential big time (when androgens go up, estrogen levels are supposed to go up to .. there is a synergistic growth effect from this. BUT taking these AI's from day one with every cycle is hindering this synergy and growth from happening).
just my opinion and observation is all .
Great way to put things in perspective. Was kind of worried about the negative effect Nolva had on IGF. The past few posts reassures me I'm making the right decision running Nolva instead of a Arimidex.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
Thanx
Quote:
Originally Posted by KennyJ
no. its still going to be very person, context, and situation dependent. theres no point in running Nolva unless your goal and situation calls for it.
I can run 2000mg of test a week an not need an AI or a SERM.. other guys are gyno prone and may need both when using just 500mg of test.
also, some goals like contest prep having low estrogen may be beneficial, so anti estrogens are helpful, and some guys may be in the off season trying to grow and anti estrogen may not be beneficial. all depends on the context.
also , think about it.. most steroids don't even convert to estrogen in the first place, and some of them are actually anti estrogens. you could cycle gear for 10 years straight and have enough choice in compounds to never even have to deal with estrogen issues.
one of the reasons why anti estrogens are popular on online forums, is because moderate dosage test only cycles are popular. but heck there is a whole world of other AAS and different protocols out there where you would never need to even consider an AI or Nolva.
Already answered
if I recall correctly off the top of my head,, in your situation Nolva made a lot of sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyatt 88
but , I don't want to come across like I'm against AI usage at all or against using Arimidex. thats a great tool for the right job when needed.. I utilize an AI myself when its called for (eg., I just came off of cycle and did a short anti estrogen phase and used Aromasin)
I totally understand. I'm probably going to switch to an AI in the spring to cut down on bloat. One thing I've learned about AAS is that there are so many variables. Every person and situation is different, there is no definitive answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
Spectacular thread. A lot of great information here.