Cutting cycle questions

[Murphman9]

Hey guys, here is where I am. 39 YO, 6'5" 255, approximately 20%BF. I had been out of the gym for many years and got cranked back up last summer. I was overweight when I started back and primarily focused on strength and mass building. I have ran a handful of cycles in the past- primarily test and deca . When I started back last summer, I ran 300mg Deca and 400 mg of test weekly, along with .25 aromisin EOD. I ran this cycle for 16 weeks and saw some great strength and size gains. From there I cruised at 200 mg of test- about 3 months. I'm ready to start cutting, this is something I've never done before. I started running HGH at 4 iu's a day in late December, UGL stuff so fingers crossed it's legit. My plan is to crank the test back up to 400 mg/wk, aromisin .25 EOD, and 100 mg of Tadalifil/ day for 12 weeks, then In week 2 start and 8 week cycle of 50 mg/day Var and the 42 day T3/Clen cycle that is posted on the forum. I've run Clen before but not T3. My goal is get to 10% body fat by the end of the cycle- basically cut it in half. I have PCT kits coming in so I can take some time off after all of this. My diet will average 2700 calories a day, 350 grams of protein, 150 grams of high quality carbs(very low sugar) and 75 grams of fat. I am working out 6 days a week and getting 40 minutes of cardio 3-4 times per week.
Please provide any advice/critiques as anyone sees fit. I'm looking forward to getting this thing rolling.

[fiddlesticks]

That amount of protein is extremely high.

[GearHeaded]

Hey guys, here is where I am. 39 YO, 6'5" 255, approximately 20%BF.

My goal is get to 10% body fat by the end of the cycle-.

in order to lose that much body fat , you'll need to lose about 40 pounds (nearly 30 pounds of fat and 10 pounds of water will likely come off to be able to do that). thats going to put you at only about 215-220 pounds. but AT 6'5" tall !
this is where I'm confused .

that weight sounds extremely light for how tall you are.. I'm only 5'9" tall and weigh a lean 210 pounds (and I consider myself small framed, 29" waist, and fairly small boned and skinny). I just can't imagine someone being 8 inches taller then me with a much larger structure only weighing 10 pounds more then me.

are you sure your that over weight ? 255 pounds at 6'5" tall sounds pretty lean already . OR perhaps you just have very very little muscle on your frame ? are your stats correct or is there a typo ?

[Murphman9]

I’ve been reading up on the amount of protein; I’ve always thought more was better but I’ve been reading information to the contrary. Believe it or not, I’ve scaled it back- was trying to get over 400 a day. I’ll keep thinking on that.

As far as my stats, the only one I’m not 100% sure on is body fat. I ordered some calipers yesterday. I’m definitely not thin and I’d say I’m on the muscular side. 48” chest, 17.5 “ biceps- vascular in the lower arms and getting some in my upper arms. My upper row of abs are starting to show. Still have love handles and that’s what I really want to ditch.

[Windex]

I’ve been reading up on the amount of protein; I’ve always thought more was better but I’ve been reading information to the contrary. Believe it or not, I’ve scaled it back- was trying to get over 400 a day. I’ll keep thinking on that.

As far as my stats, the only one I’m not 100% sure on is body fat. I ordered some calipers yesterday. I’m definitely not thin and I’d say I’m on the muscular side. 48” chest, 17.5 “ biceps- vascular in the lower arms and getting some in my upper arms. My upper row of abs are starting to show. Still have love handles and that’s what I really want to ditch.

That description doesn't sound like 20% body fat. I get you want to start as soon as possible but from your initial posts you should take a few steps first in order to maximize the potential for succes.

(1) Post your diet in the nutrition section for review. Just by looking at your macro split alone there is room for improvement. Most obvious standout is protein intake is way too execsssive.

(2) Do more research on HGH as it's the most faked compound ever. Perhaps post pictures in the picture thread and someone can identify if it's fake. No sense in continuing to pin snake oil for ever 3months with false expectations. If it's real, there's an argument to scale down the IU, saving you money.

(3) Get full panel bloodwork done - this is extremely important - there's a sticky of what you want - most of which you have to go out of your way to request from your doctor or better yet order privately. Your age + cycle history should put TRT on your radar going forward. Depending on results, it may be in your best interest to get in front of your health and start TRT.

(4) More accurately determine your body composition which allow to accurately create a meal plan. This will also allow you to set realistic goals and then track them weekly. This part is important because when people don't have realistic goals they fall into a trap of blaming nutrition, fake gear, etc and they want to use more gear rather than realizing what they wanted in the first place happens over multiple cycles.

For example, it's not physically possible for you to go from 20->10% in 12 weeks AND keep the same amount of muscle mass, even if your bathtub was full of steroids it still won't happen. (not that I believe you are 20% BF to begin with from your rough description). Losing the weight alone is gonna you at close to 210ish lbs at your height it won't look healthy. (always think marathon not sprint).

I personally think you don't need 2 steroids + clean + t3 + HGh to reach your goals. Losing weight is nutrition first and foremost the gear is the last 5% of the equation. The steroids don't really burn fat, they just help maintain muscle mass in a caloric deficit.

[Murphman9]

Thanks Windex. I will post my diet in the nutrition section later today. I am looking around locally to find a couple of things- 1) a good place to get accurate body composition tested - as I said I ordered calipers but I need to read more into the accuracy there, and 2) somewhere to test the HGH- That will be tough but I have a few friends in medicine so I’ll give it a shot. I agree on the bloodwork- I’m long overdue on that and it will something I get done here fairly soon. As far as TRT goes, I will evaluate that once I start my PCT. I’ve already got all the gear; however, doesn’t mean I have to use it. I plan on starting the Var and T3/Clen combo next week, but I want to get an accurate body comp figured and get my diet straightened out the get a plan together that we feel is both beneficial toward my goal and not detrimental to my overall health.

[fiddlesticks]

And holy hell do not take 100mg of tadalafil/cialis, that is extremely unsafe. Usually doses are 5-20

[Murphman9]

Sorry fiddlesticks, I snuck an extra 0 in there. 10 mg of tadalifil. I double checked the remaining dosages and they are correct. I posted my current diet in the diet section- I changed a few things so the macro split adjusted a little, but not by much. My body historically does not react well to a lot of carbs - they stick with me fairly easily. However, with the amount of gym time I’m putting in that shouldn’t be an issue, plus I’m trying to limit my carb intake to the first half of the day since that’s when the majority of my muscle building exercises take place.

[GearHeaded]

plus I’m trying to limit my carb intake to the first half of the day since that’s when the majority of my muscle building exercises take place.

edit - misread

[Murphman9]

Ok, so I've updated my diet and posted that in the diet forum after getting some good feedback from Windex; I researched some of your recommendations (no offense, i just like understanding everything that i'm doing as best i can) and they made a lot of sense, Thank you! As i previously mentioned, I have upped my test to 400 mg a week and I'm planning on starting the T3/Clen cutting stack either this week or next, along with 50 mg of Var for 8 weeks. Gearheaded, you said you didn't think the gear I have planned was necessary, i don't disagree with you, however, what is the downside if i run it (outside of the normal risks of steroid use that i'm completely aware of)? As I said, i have the gear and again, i don't have to use it. My goal here is to burn as much of the remaining fat that is clinging on to me for dear life, as quickly as i can (my goal date is 11 weeks from tomorrow). I'm tempted to cut out more carbs, but I think that will be more counterproductive on the lean mass side; especially since i intend on continuing my training regimen geared toward mass and strength gains.

[Windex]

Ok, so I've updated my diet and posted that in the diet forum after getting some good feedback from Windex; I researched some of your recommendations (no offense, i just like understanding everything that i'm doing as best i can) and they made a lot of sense, Thank you! As i previously mentioned, I have upped my test to 400 mg a week and I'm planning on starting the T3/Clen cutting stack either this week or next, along with 50 mg of Var for 8 weeks. Gearheaded, you said you didn't think the gear I have planned was necessary, i don't disagree with you, however, what is the downside if i run it (outside of the normal risks of steroid use that i'm completely aware of)? As I said, i have the gear and again, i don't have to use it. My goal here is to burn as much of the remaining fat that is clinging on to me for dear life, as quickly as i can (my goal date is 11 weeks from tomorrow). I'm tempted to cut out more carbs, but I think that will be more counterproductive on the lean mass side; especially since i intend on continuing my training regimen geared toward mass and strength gains.

Not GH but to answer your question this is the problem with running too many compounds:

Steroids have a floor and a ceiling. The floor means there's a minimum amount of gear required to use (for example, injecting 20mg of Test and using 3mg of Anavar per week wouldn't be useful).

The ceiling is the most your body will tolerate before the benefits outweigh the risks - varied by individual.

An easy analogy is imagine your filling up a sink blindfolded. Every cycle or add a compound you add in some amount of water. Because you are blindfolded (ie cannot see into the future) you don't know how close you are to it being full. At some point the sink will overflow and there's going to be a mess to clean up - the name of the game is to take as long as possible.

If you achieve your results on Test + Anavar, then the next time you reach a roadblock you have the ability to add in T3/Clen .

If you add in T3/Clen from day 1, that mean your only option is to either increase the dose or add in more compounds.

If the results are identical whether or not you have T3/Clen (which they should be provided diet and training are in check) - you actually put yourself behind by adding more.

John Meadows has a really good seminar where he talks about it - he uses a toolbox analogy but same principle. A popular quote (don't know its origin) is "the best dose is the one that gives you the most amount of success for as little as possible" (or something to that effect)

[Murphman9]

Damn, that’s a really good point Windex. I was 99% sure I was running the stack as planned until I read that- now, I’m thinking of kicking the T3. I still want to run the Clen as I know what to expect- it’s quite efficient at burning fat off of me. I have not tried Var, but I think this situation is ideal for its benefits. I’ll scale the HGH back to 3 iu’s A day after reading up on that as well. I’ve been struggling to hit that 4th day of cardio each week- I’m going to make sure I’m getting a full 4 days starting this week, that will help towards the bottom line. Kicking the T3 should also alleviate any issue with burning lean mass as well, which is something else I’ve been worried about. I’m going to research the “maximize results with as little as possible” concept and continuing working this thing out.

[GearHeaded]

just a quick FYI -

Var
Clen
T3

is a very safe and very effective combo when done correctly.. I've had dozens of clients utilize that combo with great results. both men and women. its one of the most simple and perfectly synergetic stacks you can run for fat loss ( adding in just a bit of tren helps too for the right person)

and if your a poker player , like John meadows talks about, well the "Var, Clen, T3" combo is only ONE card in my opinion, not 3 different cards. so don't worry, using that stack is not playing all your cards at once. theres plenty more cards in your hand and tools in the tool box where that came from

[Murphman9]

Thanks GH. From everything I've read it is one of the best fat burning stacks. If I keep the T3 in the equation, is it best to start the T3/Clen at the same time with Var or wait two weeks and add that for the final 6 weeks of the Var cycle? I'm thinking the latter so the Var would have a chance to become effective and counter the lean mass breakdown from the T3.

[Murphman9]

Ok, first, i want to again thank everyone who has helped me so far with this- it is much appreciated. So it turns out I'm a shitty estimator of body fat. I finally got my hands on some calipers today and I tested using multiple methods and i've come up with between 13-15% bodyfat after 3 tests. I feel pretty comfortable saying i'm approximately 14% body fat- which is good news. So that would make my lean body mass approx 220 pounds (currently weighing 255). My goal was to get to 10% body fat, but i think i would like to push it to 8%, which i think is achievable. I'm calculating approximately a 20 pounds reduction in weight, for both fat and water in order to achieve this. I am continuing to lift and train toward building lean muscle mass so perhaps i can add a few pounds of LBM in the next few months as well. I'm thinking a good weight will be in the 240-245 range, assuming i can add a few more quality pounds. So after reading up a little more, I would like to move forward with my original gear plan and utilize my adjusted diet (thanks again Windex, i also took your advice on the frozen mixed bag of vegetables, that fits perfectly from a Macro standpoint and its extremely convenient). Windex, to your point about doing as much with as little as possible, I do completely get that, but in my opinion, my biggest trump card is Tren . I'm terrified of that compound for it's effect on hair and that alone. I have seen some thinning over the last few years so i'm 99% sure i have the MPB gene. If and when we get to a point where the razor comes out, I'm throwing Tren into the mix. My final question in order to get started is simply how to cycle the Var, T3 and Clen . As previously stated, i'm running T400 at 400mg/wk, i'm thinking of starting an 8 week cycle of Var at 50mg per day, then two weeks in start the 6 week T3/Clen stack that has been posted on this forum. With a proper diet in place and the amount of cardio i am including, i really think this goal is achievable in 11 weeks. Comments?

[Windex]

Ok, first, i want to again thank everyone who has helped me so far with this- it is much appreciated. So it turns out I'm a shitty estimator of body fat. I finally got my hands on some calipers today and I tested using multiple methods and i've come up with between 13-15% bodyfat after 3 tests. I feel pretty comfortable saying i'm approximately 14% body fat- which is good news. So that would make my lean body mass approx 220 pounds (currently weighing 255). My goal was to get to 10% body fat, but i think i would like to push it to 8%, which i think is achievable. I'm calculating approximately a 20 pounds reduction in weight, for both fat and water in order to achieve this. I am continuing to lift and train toward building lean muscle mass so perhaps i can add a few pounds of LBM in the next few months as well. I'm thinking a good weight will be in the 240-245 range, assuming i can add a few more quality pounds. So after reading up a little more, I would like to move forward with my original gear plan and utilize my adjusted diet (thanks again Windex, i also took your advice on the frozen mixed bag of vegetables, that fits perfectly from a Macro standpoint and its extremely convenient). Windex, to your point about doing as much with as little as possible, I do completely get that, but in my opinion, my biggest trump card is Tren. I'm terrified of that compound for it's effect on hair and that alone. I have seen some thinning over the last few years so i'm 99% sure i have the MPB gene. If and when we get to a point where the razor comes out, I'm throwing Tren into the mix. My final question in order to get started is simply how to cycle the Var, T3 and Clen. As previously stated, i'm running T400 at 400mg/wk, i'm thinking of starting an 8 week cycle of Var at 50mg per day, then two weeks in start the 6 week T3/Clen stack that has been posted on this forum. With a proper diet in place and the amount of cardio i am including, i really think this goal is achievable in 11 weeks. Comments?

Given how far off your guestimate was on your bodyfat, I think it would be worthwhile to give yourself another shot at finding your carb tolerance level.

Going under 10% bodyfat is a completely different animal all together. I don't mean to be a negative nancy but 14 to 8% Bodyfat given your experience level [important factor] and 11 weeks with the compounds your running, in my opinion, is unrealistic. 14 to 10-11% then 11% to 8% on the following cycle is more manageable.

Most people (including myself) don't like Testosterone blends (like T400) for cycling because they don't offer any advantage to single short or single longer ester Testosterone. I'm assuming your blend is either a mix of short and long esters or has the 3 long esters (Cyp/Enth/Decanoate).

Decanoate is poor for cycling (though awesome for TRT) because you have to wait longer for PCT. Mixing short and long esters is poor because you end up having to pin every other day minimum otherwise your wasting the % of the composition from the ester half life. In addition, blends tend to be underdosed more often compared to single ester compounds and tend to have more PIP. This is certainly not the case for every labs' test blend, but the stereotype exists for reason.

What I meant by researching your HGH was finding reviews on the lab, either online or in our review section of the website. You can also post pictures of the vial in the picture thread incase a member has come across it before. The in-home test kits are not worthwhile in my opinion. The one Test you can do is buying a pregnancy test kit as that will rule out HCG as to what's inside your vial. The second test would be IGF-1 levels via bloodwork. If the results come back poor and the lab does not support you, then no sense in continuing to pin it every morning and wasting your time. You are going to need a full panel of bloodwork before cycling anyways so you may as well add IGF-1 on the list of tests.

Given your history of cycling + use of deca I would ask also ask yourself whether or not you want to marry the lifestyle and the needle - because if so then you should get ahead of it and be prepared accordingly to exit the cycle with TRT rather than PCT.

TRT is a big quality of life improvement for Men 40 years old and over, but it's also a commitment that has to be made for yourself.

[Murphman9]

I've been thinking on the TRT issue. I'm assuming the idea would be to get off cycle, let my levels drop then get tested for TRT? One question, why does my use deca play into this decision? I'm pretty sure i'm on board with moving in that direction at some point, whether tomorrow or 5 years from now- and with my revived interest in fitness i agree it may be in my best interest to get ahead of it and get on TRT after this cycle. That opens up a whole new set of questions that will require research on my end, which i will start in the very, very near future. I'm going to get my IGF-1 levels checked when i get my blood work done- again, i agree that if it's bunk there's no need to keep pinning daily. I understand your concern with blended Test, this again shows my inexperience with all of this- but I'm learning and i'll apply this new knowledge to my plans going forward. The more i think about it, the more i tend to agree that 8% is probably unachievable- I've never been 10% much less under, however, i'm still going to try like hell to get there. I'll do a fucking cartwheel if I make it to 10%. My body is definitely taking carbs better and i think its primarily due to the increased activity level. I plan on some sort of bulking cycle for later on in the year once i've normalized after this first blast- my macros will be a great point of emphasis prior to starting that up.

[GearHeaded]

Thanks GH. From everything I've read it is one of the best fat burning stacks. If I keep the T3 in the equation, is it best to start the T3/Clen at the same time with Var or wait two weeks and add that for the final 6 weeks of the Var cycle? I'm thinking the latter so the Var would have a chance to become effective and counter the lean mass breakdown from the T3.

despite online forum folk lore .. T3 can be ran when you start your diet and its not going to breakdown all your muscle. T3 is a naturally occurring hormone that we all produce. if it was as catabolic to muscle as people exaggerate it to be, then no one (especially natty's) would be able to put on muscle mass. also it wouldn't be used by high level bodybuilders during off season mass phases .
the idea that T3 burns off muscle and is super catabolic is overly exaggerated.

I like to have clients start a new diet and start a replacement dosage of T3 at the same time. what this does is it makes one important factor of dieting 'fixed' and takes away the variables of fluctuating metabolism (which happens when starting a new diet and cardio). basically by taking say 25mcg of T3 from the start, your replacing natural thyroid hormone with a FIXED amount from the start of your diet. this allows you to get the diet dialed in and the cardio dialed in without as many variables, as your metabolism is set because of the pharmacology.

starting a new diet with a hefty calorie deficit, starting cardio and training, and then having your metabolism respond by stalling is a pain in the ass.. IF your a drug using athlete and not opposed to its use, then T3 is a great way to start off a diet imo. get your metabolism set first with a consistent replacement dose of thyroid.

starting AAS at the same time is ideal as well. but don't be afraid that a replacement dosage of T3 is going to somehow strip away all your muscle (you've been producing natural T3 for 30+ years). so test and VAR can start at this time as well.. however I'd wait a bit before starting the Clen (clen usage is an entire protocol itself).
depending on how things are going your T3 dosage later on can go up. but you may be surprised at how well of results your getting by just running a consistent replacement dosage while being in a calorie deficit.

[GearHeaded]

as for your BF% this may help


however I don't agree with the 5-9% pic . the guy at 5-9% is likely 10% and the guy at 10-14% is likely 14%

[Murphman9]

Thanks GH. I'm going to start the cutting gear next week along with the revised diet plan. I have some decisions to make regarding PCT or TRT thanks to Windex's recommendations. If not this year, I'm pretty sure I'll get on TRT in the next few if it makes sense. I'll report back on the cycle over the next 11 weeks and let y'all know how this thing turns out.

[AlphaMindz]

That description doesn't sound like 20% body fat. I get you want to start as soon as possible but from your initial posts you should take a few steps first in order to maximize the potential for succes.

(1) Post your diet in the nutrition section for review. Just by looking at your macro split alone there is room for improvement. Most obvious standout is protein intake is way too execsssive.

(2) Do more research on HGH as it's the most faked compound ever. Perhaps post pictures in the picture thread and someone can identify if it's fake. No sense in continuing to pin snake oil for ever 3months with false expectations. If it's real, there's an argument to scale down the IU, saving you money.

(3) Get full panel bloodwork done - this is extremely important - there's a sticky of what you want - most of which you have to go out of your way to request from your doctor or better yet order privately. Your age + cycle history should put TRT on your radar going forward. Depending on results, it may be in your best interest to get in front of your health and start TRT.

(4) More accurately determine your body composition which allow to accurately create a meal plan. This will also allow you to set realistic goals and then track them weekly. This part is important because when people don't have realistic goals they fall into a trap of blaming nutrition, fake gear, etc and they want to use more gear rather than realizing what they wanted in the first place happens over multiple cycles.

For example, it's not physically possible for you to go from 20->10% in 12 weeks AND keep the same amount of muscle mass, even if your bathtub was full of steroids it still won't happen. (not that I believe you are 20% BF to begin with from your rough description). Losing the weight alone is gonna you at close to 210ish lbs at your height it won't look healthy. (always think marathon not sprint).

I personally think you don't need 2 steroids + clean + t3 + HGh to reach your goals. Losing weight is nutrition first and foremost the gear is the last 5% of the equation. The steroids don't really burn fat, they just help maintain muscle mass in a caloric deficit.

Well said bro

[AlphaMindz]

Not GH but to answer your question this is the problem with running too many compounds:

Steroids have a floor and a ceiling. The floor means there's a minimum amount of gear required to use (for example, injecting 20mg of Test and using 3mg of Anavar per week wouldn't be useful).

The ceiling is the most your body will tolerate before the benefits outweigh the risks - varied by individual.

An easy analogy is imagine your filling up a sink blindfolded. Every cycle or add a compound you add in some amount of water. Because you are blindfolded (ie cannot see into the future) you don't know how close you are to it being full. At some point the sink will overflow and there's going to be a mess to clean up - the name of the game is to take as long as possible.

If you achieve your results on Test + Anavar, then the next time you reach a roadblock you have the ability to add in T3/Clen .

If you add in T3/Clen from day 1, that mean your only option is to either increase the dose or add in more compounds.

If the results are identical whether or not you have T3/Clen (which they should be provided diet and training are in check) - you actually put yourself behind by adding more.

John Meadows has a really good seminar where he talks about it - he uses a toolbox analogy but same principle. A popular quote (don't know its origin) is "the best dose is the one that gives you the most amount of success for as little as possible" (or something to that effect)

Again well said lol

[AlphaMindz]

So much good info in this thread thanks for the read fellas.

Windex you're on point my man thanks for the info. You and GH literally just paved the way for OP now he's just gotta do the work!

OP- I appreciate your articulation and your receptiveness to suggestions. It's refreshing and makes it fun to follow a thread. So many guys, especially young bucks, ask for advice and then aren't receptive to it lol...Glad you're among the teachable and that makes me feel pretty confident that you're going to make some amazing progress!

Do I think you'll get to 10% bf even by the end of the cycle? Def not lol, t's almost humanly impossible unless you just ran gear and fasted the whole time which in theory would produce amazing fat loss results BUT of course you couldn't train during that time so you wouldn't build much muscle and it would essentially be a fat loss project and not a recomp project like you're after (moot point I know lol)

But having said that, I do think you can have visible abs by the time you're done which will already be an amazing accomplishment and will drive you to keep going cause like Windex mentioned this has to be done in stages...Once you get down to say 15% you're gonna have to change some shit up to trick your body into letting go of more fat, and as you get lower, especially sub 10% it gets VERY difficult cause you're body will fight every last ounce you're trying to burn lol.. That's where dietary and drug protocol changes come into play!

I also wanted to confirm GH's advice about t3. IME it can be the missing link for people who really struggle to lose bf as often times those people genetically produce less TSH/t4/t3 respectively to begin with so that's actually a really smart move what he does getting clients on t3 to remove that variable from the equation. IME t3 is a very effective tool for cutting!

One thing I'd suggest (my bad if it's already been addressed) is I'd def get blood work done so you can quantify your starting point which is so key cause if you're committing to this "physique project" which I did about a year and a half ago for myself (damn time flies!) you're gonna want to track your blood work so you know exactly how the drugs are affecting your body and gives you much more control over what cmpounds to take and at what dosage and also how to fix a problem if one arises.

Good luck on your journey bro! You should post prog pics so we can follow your progress and it also helps keep you motivated and constructive criticism is also very valuable.. This forum is really good at shutting down haters and maintaining a positive and helpful environment for us guys who post prog pics for input. It helped me quite a bit when I got things going as you're planning to so it's just another tool to maximize your progress!

[Murphman9]

Thanks Alpha, putting the work in will not be a problem; i'm extremely motivated at this point. I enjoy learning from others when the subject matter is not my forte. I'm currently at 15% BF, i thought i was around 20 but i was happy to learn I'm a bit leaner- so i do think 10% is achievable from where i am now. It will not be easy and if i don't make it in the next 10 weeks, i'll make it some time soon after. I have not really put much thought into what kind of changes will be required once i meet this goal; it's crazy to think how hard you work toward this while the whole time your body is pushing against you (in some respects). I appreciate the advice on the blood work, I'm thinking about scheduling a work up next week. I've been lurking around the board for a while and it seems like a very supportive community which definitely swayed me toward joining and jumping on the forum. I'll keep the board updated on my progress starting next week once i get everything rolling. Thanks again.

[Murphman9]

Finished up the first week of my cutting cycle; I was already running 400mg test/wk, 4 i.u.'s hgh/day and .25 Aromisin EOD. I added 50 mg var/day and Clen , starting at 80 mg/day and worked up to 140mg. I also ran the diet that was created with help from the board; stayed on track for the most part- had a few late night carbs due to some special occasions. I ran for 45 minutes 3 days and did my normal 6 day training program. I weighed 256 last Sunday and I came in at 250 this morning. Now I know that most of that is water weight, however I've had some good ab definition and increased vascularity in my biceps develop over the last week. my plan is to get 5 days of cardio this week and keep everything else the same. I'm going to hold off on the T3 for now as long as progress is still being made. Just an update- I'll try and get some pics up at some point this week.

[Murphman9]

Ok, finished up the 2nd week and my weight has stayed the same, actually about a pound heavier as of Sunday morning (a little late posting), so i'm down a total of 5 pounds for the 2 weeks so far. I got 4 days of cardio in and my full workout schedule. I'm running about a 1,000 calorie deficit per day- i feel comfortable in this range as opposed to the 500 as i'm trying to keep my carbs down to a minimum, but still consume enough to promote some lean growth. I also received my mid cycle blood work (attached), and this is where things get interesting. As feared, the UGL HGH i have been running is not HGH. I pinned 10 i.u.'s 3 hours and 15 minutes prior to blood being drawn and my IGF1 came back at 149 on a scale of 83 - 233- i've been running 4 i.u.'s a day for 2 months now and i took 10 i.u.'s shortly before the test- i don't have any pre cycle bloodwork to compare to but i have to assume that i'm not pinning HGH due to the low number. The 2nd revelation is my test level- only 1,246 on a 264 - 916 scale- wayyyyy too low for 400 mg weekly injections. So that's obviously underdosed. Now, for the good news, as i'm a huge proponent of taking whatever good you can out of any situation. Over the last 5 months i have completely transformed my physique, i've only been running the HGH for a few months, but i started with Test and Deca . Now maybe this particular vial of test is underdosed and the rest were not- i'm not sure, but maybe I'm experiencing a placebo effect to some degree. I have been living in the gym and fighting one hell of a fight on the diet trail, so i know how much work i've put in, maybe i didn't realize that the juice wasn't as big a factor for me after all; maybe i just needed some reason to stick with a plan, and the gear (or illusion thereof) provided that. And to go a step further, if all the AAS i've been running has been underdosed, what could i do with pharma grade gear???? That's the real question in my opinion, and something that gives me extreme hope. I guess some other good news is my PCT should be highly effective and hopefully will lead to me bouncing back pretty quickly......

[Windex]

Ok, finished up the 2nd week and my weight has stayed the same, actually about a pound heavier as of Sunday morning (a little late posting), so i'm down a total of 5 pounds for the 2 weeks so far. I got 4 days of cardio in and my full workout schedule. I'm running about a 1,000 calorie deficit per day- i feel comfortable in this range as opposed to the 500 as i'm trying to keep my carbs down to a minimum, but still consume enough to promote some lean growth. I also received my mid cycle blood work (attached), and this is where things get interesting. As feared, the UGL HGH i have been running is not HGH. I pinned 10 i.u.'s 3 hours and 15 minutes prior to blood being drawn and my IGF1 came back at 149 on a scale of 83 - 233- i've been running 4 i.u.'s a day for 2 months now and i took 10 i.u.'s shortly before the test- i don't have any pre cycle bloodwork to compare to but i have to assume that i'm not pinning HGH due to the low number. The 2nd revelation is my test level- only 1,246 on a 264 - 916 scale- wayyyyy too low for 400 mg weekly injections. So that's obviously underdosed. Now, for the good news, as i'm a huge proponent of taking whatever good you can out of any situation. Over the last 5 months i have completely transformed my physique, i've only been running the HGH for a few months, but i started with Test and Deca. Now maybe this particular vial of test is underdosed and the rest were not- i'm not sure, but maybe I'm experiencing a placebo effect to some degree. I have been living in the gym and fighting one hell of a fight on the diet trail, so i know how much work i've put in, maybe i didn't realize that the juice wasn't as big a factor for me after all; maybe i just needed some reason to stick with a plan, and the gear (or illusion thereof) provided that. And to go a step further, if all the AAS i've been running has been underdosed, what could i do with pharma grade gear???? That's the real question in my opinion, and something that gives me extreme hope. I guess some other good news is my PCT should be highly effective and hopefully will lead to me bouncing back pretty quickly......

Outside of 19nors the degree of shutdown is the same. The only other variable is duration. Whether you run 400mg or 800mg of Test for 16 weeks for example, 800mg won't shut you down "more".

You are correct in both your HGH and Testosterone being underdosed. Your Test levels are pretty close to TRT levels

The HGH comes of no surprise, it's sterile water with no GH in for all you know. I would use it as a learning opportunity to either invest small fortune in pharma GH or do heavy research on one of the few UGLs that offers close to pharma HGH.

The alternative is using peptides. Not quite apples to apples, but a lot more cost effective and less of a kick in the foot if underdoaed.

In terms of your Testosterone, either the lab is skimming to make extra cash or unknowingly got a bad batch of raws. If you forward the bloodwork to the lab, they should make it right if they have any self respect. If they don't then you know to choose a different one in the future.

Given the underdosed gear, I would caution being at 1000 caloric deficit because you don't have the hormones to offset and spare lean tissue.

[Murphman9]

Thanks Windex. I purchased through a local source so i am in the process of working it out with him- he’s reasonable and I’m sure we’ll get it figured out. There are a few of us that buy from him and we’ve all made significant progress so there’s a good chance the Test was a one off. I’m thinking more about SARMS in lieu of HGH- definitely more maneagable from a cost standpoint and they seem to be backed up by good performance reviews. From the caliper measurements, I seem to have dropped a little more body fat so I am going to continue with the deficit, however, I am going to up my dosage of T for the remainder of the cycle. I will also keep my eye on performance and LBM and do my best to ensure I don’t start losing good tissue.

[Windex]

Thanks Windex. I purchased through a local source so i am in the process of working it out with him- he’s reasonable and I’m sure we’ll get it figured out. There are a few of us that buy from him and we’ve all made significant progress so there’s a good chance the Test was a one off. I’m thinking more about SARMS in lieu of HGH- definitely more maneagable from a cost standpoint and they seem to be backed up by good performance reviews. From the caliper measurements, I seem to have dropped a little more body fat so I am going to continue with the deficit, however, I am going to up my dosage of T for the remainder of the cycle. I will also keep my eye on performance and LBM and do my best to ensure I don’t start losing good tissue.

Peptides would give closer results to what HGH is trying to do in the body. SARMS are a different mechanism of action all together. It's worth researching both and see which one suites your goals the best. From what I've seen so far, SARMs are very hit and miss in terms of quality because they are the new kid on the block and its the wild west. Ensure to take reviews with a grain of salt. A lot of positive SARM reviews I see have the same individual running cycle level gear. Not possible to be objective on SARM A/B/C when John Smith is on 500mg of Tren and 750mg Test.