HGH Cycle advice

Hi,

I have been following the forum for a while now and have completed 4 previous cycles in a span of about 3 years.
All of them have been according to what Austinite posted here My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle
I only changed out the different types of test, cyp, enanthate etc. Pretty basic stuff with no side effects or major concerns.

My current stats are as follows

Age - 30
BF% - 12-15

My question is regarding the addition of HGH into the mix.
I have read multiple benefits of it when being used along AAS cycle. Would I keep the following protocol for 12 weeks:

Test - 500mg/week
Adex - 0.25mg EOD
HCG 500IU's/week.



PCT
Clomid - 75/50/50/50
Nolva - 40/20/20/20

At what dosage would it be best to start with HGH? I've read on the HGH profile that between 2-4IU's?
How long before and after the cycle ends should HGH be administered?

Thanks in advance!

adding HGH is surely going to have benefits. just depends on your expectations as to what those benefits may be and if they are worth it $ cost wise.

if you expect to get big and jacked adding HGH to a measly 500mg of test , you'll be let down. you'll get way way more gains doing more advanced cycles with anabolics (not test only cycle) and doing them multiple times per year (not once a year like you've done) then you'll ever even come close to getting with HGH added in.

if your recomping and trying to fill out a bit of muscle mass while staying lean or even getting a bit leaner. then adding the HGH will be some help.

if your trying to grow and add on quite a bit of size over say a 12 month time span, then adding HGH for that 12 months will definitely help with that.

whats your main goal here?

for fat loss, 2iu injected twice per day is best.
for muscle gain, 4-6iu injected pari workout is best (also best added with insulin)


I generally tell guys that HGH is an investment into your 'future' physique. plan on running it now for gains that come much later on.
whereas something like Tren is a drug that gives immediate results

shorter runs of HGH can work for appearance sake, but its generally only for guys that already have a great physique and are pretty lean

Hi Gear,

Thanks for the response.
My current goal is definitely to add more quality mass and size. I have been on the moderate side regarding cycles but planning on cycling more regularly this year.
I have looked into Tren as a possibility but weary of the side effects and I honestly don't have enough knowledge about the use of Tren.

What would you recommend as a 'beginner' Tren cycle?

Appreciate the help and advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swollster

Hi Gear,

Thanks for the response.
My current goal is definitely to add more quality mass and size. I have been on the moderate side regarding cycles but planning on cycling more regularly this year.
I have looked into Tren as a possibility but weary of the side effects and I honestly don't have enough knowledge about the use of Tren.

What would you recommend as a 'beginner' Tren cycle?

Appreciate the help and advice.

---

Would not recommend trying to bulk on Tren for first time Tren use. Most people lose weight on Tren even if their intention is to bulk.

In my opinion, To bulk on Tren + Test you need to be very in sync with your body, nutrition, be able to adjust calories on the fly, and know exactly how Tren reacts with yourself as an individual. Pretty tall order for a first time Tren cycle imo. Cutting/recomping is a different story.

HGH is a long term investment and not really a cycle compound. You have to be able to stay on it for as long as financially possible to get long term results (9, 12 and more months). The other tricky part is it's the most faked compound in the fitness world. There's a lot of heavy lifting in the research department to get GH. Atleast if you get unlucky and get fake Anavar for example you are out a hundred dollars or whatever. Fake GH and your out thousands of you don't check IGF-1

You have tons of options available. Test + Dbol / Test + Var. There's also EQ which other people will either love or hate. So if you want to spin the wheel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swollster

Hi Gear,

Thanks for the response.
My current goal is definitely to add more quality mass and size. I have been on the moderate side regarding cycles but planning on cycling more regularly this year.
I have looked into Tren as a possibility but weary of the side effects and I honestly don't have enough knowledge about the use of Tren.

What would you recommend as a 'beginner' Tren cycle?

Appreciate the help and advice.

---

if you want to put on more mass and size over time , then getting into HGH usage will be of benefit for you. so if you got the funds, I'd say go for it. keep running it about 7-9 months of the year if you can. or 3 months on 1 off etc.
I'm sure you've looked into the positive and negative side effects . I'll just say that one negative side effect that isn't always mentioned that often, but can have major health implications is the possibly of chronic elevated blood sugars. this is something you can easily monitor though at home with a glucose monitor, and its something that can be dealt with. no need to run HGH and end up pre diabetic cause you didn't spend the 10$ for a little glucose meter .


just an FYI - I was not recommending tren to you per se. I just threw it out there as an example of a compound that has more immediate appearance effects compared to HGH which is slower and more long term.

you can develop an amazing physique without ever touching Tren

having said that.. Tren is a great compound that I utilize myself quite often as well as do a lot of my clients. you just gotta know that its a 'tool' and there are certain times, places, and reasons to use such a powerful tool.. I'm not an advocate of running Tren for super long runs. I generally promote it to be rotated in and out of cycles during certain phases and not run as a constant.. example, add it in to a 12 week cycle for a 6 week long androgenic phase of that cycle , rather then running tren the whole 12 weeks.

so a very basic cycle using Tren for cutting lets say

Weeks 1-12
Test 300mg
Masteron 600mg
Weeks 6-12
Tren a 450mg
Weeks 9-12
Winstrol 50mg day

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Windex

Would not recommend trying to bulk on Tren for first time Tren use. Most people lose weight on Tren even if their intention is to bulk.

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agree with this . bulking with tren is a bit more complex and you need to be someone that has ran plenty of cycles and know how your body responds to elevated estrogen. in order to bulk with Tren your going to want to add in a 'wet' estrogenic compound that will get your E levels up on the high end.
high estrogen + high androgen (ie, tren) = growth

its not the Tren that ranchers use on cattle that 'bulks them up' for slaughter.. its the estrogen that gets added to the tren that puts on the size.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Windex

Would not recommend trying to bulk on Tren for first time Tren use. Most people lose weight on Tren even if their intention is to bulk

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Main reason why I've steered clear from Tren is due to the complexity of it, but definitely for future use. As mentioned this would be the first cycle I'm stacking with other compounds so looking to keep it relatively simple and side effect free as far as possible.

The HGH just seemed the less complex option. And I have read about elevated blood sugar, a lot of conflicting info regarding the use of insulin with/without HGH

The other option is Test + Deca, only concern is deca dick and the crash in libido from it.

Would it be counter intuitive to run Test/deca/dbol and later in the year, gear's recommendation on the tren cutting cycle?

Thanks gents

guarantee you that you'll get a shit ton more gains by running a test/deca/dbol cycle then you would simply adding a little bit of hgh to a test only cycle.

as for deca dick, its extremely rare for someone that knows what they are doing. if you super super progestin sensitive, then yes you can get it and if thats the case you need to just avoid 19 nors.
but often times you hear of guys getting it , and its not the deca itself thats the cause. its often times guys running a bunch of AI from day one of their cycle (not realizing that deca is not going to convert over to a bunch of estrogen) and they crush their E levels and the dick stops working. OR guys don't run enough test to get enough DHT conversion (as your dick needs DHT and estrogen to function) and Deca converts to DHB, which binds to the DHT receptors, yet does not illicit DHT effects (and again you need the DHT, not DHB, for your dick to work). you can simply add Proviron to a deca cycle to help increase free DHT levels and keep sexual function going.

personally.. I've ran over 1500mg of Deca/Nandrolone per week, with other 19 nors in the mix (tren, ment) and never have had a 'deca dick' issue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

its often times guys running a bunch of AI from day one of their cycle (not realizing that deca is not going to convert over to a bunch of estrogen) and they crush their E levels and the dick stops working

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Perfect, thanks Gear,

How would I structure a cycle with these and control the Estrogen as the consensus on AI seems to be 0.25 Adex EOD(atleast on a test only cycle)

Would PCT have to be changed with regards to Nolva?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swollster

Perfect, thanks Gear,

How would I structure a cycle with these and control the Estrogen as the consensus on AI seems to be 0.25 Adex EOD(atleast on a test only cycle)

Would PCT have to be changed with regards to Nolva?

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here a couple of threads of mine where you may pick up some 'nuggets' of information browsing through.

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...c-hormone.html

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...ning-test.html

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...protocols.html


I am NOT a big fan of using AI's in general during cycle except in certain circumstances . especially if you want to grow and put on size.. estrogen is an extremely anabolic hormone in the prescence of elevated androgens, and estrogen will do as much as HGH would in regards to it increasing your natty HGH levels, IGF production, etc..
taking an AI to lower your estrogen, when your taking drugs that are meant to specifically rise your estrogen and androgens equally , like Test, is counter productive for gains imo.

AI's are great for certain things. like anti estrogen phases of a cycle , which comes at the tail end of a cycle just before going into PCT. or for guys that are super estrogen sensitive and running a SERM like nolva is not enough . or for guys on TRT that need to maintain normal blood levels of hormones being they are under a doc supervision.

but for guys that cycle, Nolva is better then AI usage (cause it allows for elevated estrogen in the blood and getting all those benefits, but it blocks negative estrogen effects at the receptors in things like breast tissue). so you get the best of both worlds . or if your super estrogen sensitive then you simply need to design your cycle using non aromatizing drugs (most steroids don't convert to estrogen anyways, so thats easy to do)


as for PCT . it should generally be the same no matter what cycle you do.
I promote this type of pct
anti estrogen phase at the tail end of your cycle with an AI
HCG usage at the tail end then going into the day pct starts
then clomid and nolva combo

Running Test/deca/dbol is what i do now. For mass its great, im 8 weeks in today and up from 105kg to 120kg. The dbol i dropped aften week 6. I started out on 500/500/30-40-50. After week 4 my sex drive was getting lower so i upped the test to 1000mg and deca i run at 600, sexdrive got back and everything is great so far. I highly recommand this stack if mass is what you are after. I regret i didnt try this stack before. (I also run 4iu hgh a day.)

To be honest there is so much conflicting info out there. One half is preaching the use of AI's on cycle. Other half is promoting the use of Nolva on cycle(gyno prevention)

"Estrogen illicits most of its anabolic effects in the PRESENCE OF ELEVATED ANDROGENS . what does this mean? it means estrogen becomes super Anabolic mainly when being combined with supra-physiolgical dosages of androgens"

This makes sense to me as the use of a SERM on cycle would counter the bad shit from estrogen such as gyno, without completely obliterating your estrogen. I have run all my previous cycles with an AI and feel I may have hindered possible growth due to lack of estrogen.

So Test/deca/dbol with Nolva on Cycle?

Then AI before PCT to bring Estrogen down when androgen levels fall, and then do PCT?

Haven't decided on dosages yet, and can always keep an AI on hand if needed.

I don't want to do a cycle because another "bro" did it I'd rather know the science behind it so please forgive all the questions. But here to learn more about AAS.

Thanks gents!

Quote:

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Running Test/deca /dbol is what i do now. For mass its great, im 8 weeks in today and up from 105kg to 120kg. The dbol i dropped aften week 6. I started out on 500/500/30-40-50. After week 4 my sex drive was getting lower so i upped the test to 1000mg and deca i run at 600, sexdrive got back and everything is great so far. I highly recommand this stack if mass is what you are after. I regret i didnt try this stack before. (I also run 4iu hgh a day.)

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i can guarantee that the test wasn’t the reason for sex drive issues. Doubling the test is more likely to increase the problems.

Swollster, personally I used 0.125mg Aromasin and 10mg nolva while on dbol. dropped the nolvadex after finished dbol. I Had gyno in the past so im just being «carefull» and maybee littlebit paranoid about it.

I dont know redz, just telling what i experienced so far. Had a week++ or so where i had problems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swollster

To be honest there is so much conflicting info out there. One half is preaching the use of AI's on cycle. Other half is promoting the use of Nolva on cycle(gyno prevention)

"Estrogen illicits most of its anabolic effects in the PRESENCE OF ELEVATED ANDROGENS . what does this mean? it means estrogen becomes super Anabolic mainly when being combined with supra-physiolgical dosages of androgens"

This makes sense to me as the use of a SERM on cycle would counter the bad shit from estrogen such as gyno, without completely obliterating your estrogen. I have run all my previous cycles with an AI and feel I may have hindered possible growth due to lack of estrogen.

So Test/deca/dbol with Nolva on Cycle?

Then AI before PCT to bring Estrogen down when androgen levels fall, and then do PCT?

Haven't decided on dosages yet, and can always keep an AI on hand if needed.

I don't want to do a cycle because another "bro" did it I'd rather know the science behind it so please forgive all the questions. But here to learn more about AAS.

Thanks gents!

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great post ! shows you actually took the time to think about these things and have a desire to learn and not just inject stuff into your body with no rhyme or reason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swollster

To be honest there is so much conflicting info out there. One half is preaching the use of AI's on cycle. Other half is promoting the use of Nolva on cycle(gyno prevention)

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Don't forget the "third half" , which I'm also an advocate for, and thats NOT running an AI or a SERM at all because your setting your cycles up in such a way that estrogen control will not be needed.
people forget that 80% of the steroids out there available to us do NOT convert to estrogen in the first place and some of them actually work as anti estrogens themselves.

you can run Cycles your whole life and never have to deal with estrogen or running an AI or serm if you just don't cycle estrogenic compounds .
heres a list of a few of the AAS you can cycle and not worry about estrogen control

Winstrol
Var
Primo
superdrol
Stenbolone
DHB
Tbol
Masteron
Proviron

and to a lesser degree, but still no AI needed
Deca
Npp
Tren
Eq
Anadrol


I'm sure I'm forgetting some. but the point is you can run a ton of drugs and lots of cycles and never have to worry about estrogen issues, let alone having to run an AI (as most the drugs above do not aromatize, and if they do its to such a small degree it will have no real impact .. and if they are stacked with another drug that has anti e effects, it won't matter)

now lets list some of the drugs that do aromatize a lot

Test
Dbol
Ment
Cheque drops


hmm.. see how short this list is. and heck two of the drugs on the list are rare designer drugs that are not common.

so all this talk about estrogen control and using AI's etc.. is really over blown when most drugs we have access to do not convert to estrogen. a reason AI usage got so popular was because of the rise of TEST ONLY cycles . everyone started running Test as their main compound and guess what , test converts over to estrogen at a high degree. but even then its still really person dependent (I've ran 2 grams of test with no AI).

if your estrogen sensitive. then run your cycles in such a way that you don't have to worry about aromatization. its really that simple and easy and you have a huge list of great drugs to choose from.
use test as an 'ancillary' only, running a replacement dosage is all. then use the actual anabolics to make up your cycle


^ just throwing this out there as a third option, compared to the AI use crowd, or the Nolva use crowd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swollster

This makes sense to me as the use of a SERM on cycle would counter the bad shit from estrogen such as gyno, without completely obliterating your estrogen. I have run all my previous cycles with an AI and feel I may have hindered possible growth due to lack of estrogen.

So Test/deca/dbol with Nolva on Cycle?

Then AI before PCT to bring Estrogen down when androgen levels fall, and then do PCT?

Haven't decided on dosages yet, and can always keep an AI on hand if needed.

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YES. you'll get plenty of gains with a cycle like this, compared to just adding in some HGH to a test only cycle. the elevated serum levels of Estrogen you'll get from this will also stimulate more production of natty HGH and IGF anyhow. and again, the SERM will counter negative effects at the receptor level, like in breast tissue.

note: and NO , nolva is not going to lower your IGF to any reasonable degree while your ON cycle. that bro myth is based on false bs and un related studies

Great post GH ^^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

use test as an 'ancillary' only, running a replacement dosage is all. then use the actual anabolics to make up your cycle

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This I like. I read the sticky on this forum regarding the use the of Tren where it's also suggested that Test dosages should be to keep normal function and let the tren do the heavy lifting in the cycle. Would there be any potential draw back with a lower dose test based cycle as opposed to the 'norm' of 500mg+ per week?

Thanks Gear, very informative and a ton of help with planning moving forward. Much appreciated

Test/Tren is a good combo and by adjusting the dosage, you can get vary your end results. 200mg/wk of Test with 400mg/wk of Tren will give you more of a cutting cycle. 500mg/wk of Test with 400mg/wk of Tren will give you more of a bulking cycle.

At your age, you're secreting the greatest amount of natural HGH your body can produce. When you get on synthetic HGH your replace your body's natural production. Once we hit about 30 we slow down the production of HGH by about 2% per year. That's why older guys, like me, feel the benefits of HGH more than younger guys like you. HGH isn't really a "cycle" IMO. You get on and you stay on forever or until your wife won't let you sell your car to buy more. LOL

You can get more bang for the $$ with other compounds instead of HGH. I have to say at this point that I'm not a fan of young athletes running HGH. It's such a precious commodity that your body produces. I would hate to see any potential disruption by exogenous application of HGH.

Having said that, the benefits of HGH that I have noticed (I have been running HGH for going on 8 straight years now) is that 1) I can maintain more of my gains for longer, 2) my belly fat is a distant history, 3) my short term memory is better, 4) I have amazing skin, 5) I can concentrate on complex problems for long periods of time, 6) I heal fast, 7) every AAS cycle is a good cycle with HGH.

Think about running HGH. I don't think you really need it at this point in your life. You can take the money and get more good gear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Swollster

Hi,

I have been following the forum for a while now and have completed 4 previous cycles in a span of about 3 years.
All of them have been according to what Austinite posted here My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle
I only changed out the different types of test, cyp, enanthate etc. Pretty basic stuff with no side effects or major concerns.

My current stats are as follows

Age - 30
BF% - 12-15

My question is regarding the addition of HGH into the mix.
I have read multiple benefits of it when being used along AAS cycle. Would I keep the following protocol for 12 weeks:

Test - 500mg/week
Adex - 0.25mg EOD
HCG 500IU's/week.



PCT
Clomid - 75/50/50/50
Nolva - 40/20/20/20

At what dosage would it be best to start with HGH? I've read on the HGH profile that between 2-4IU's?
How long before and after the cycle ends should HGH be administered?

Thanks in advance!

---

3-5 iu is plenty
The whole cycle