Hpta Shutdown Length affecting Restart

[DeeCee112]

Wasn't really sure how to title this but I have some questions and some assumptions Im wondering if are valid or not. Coming into this cycle and having no experience with AAS aside from observations of a few good friends cycles, heavy and mild, long and short length, and a few message boards I followed for a few years back in my early and mid 20s I was quite hardline with the thought of 1 cycle, standard or close to it length, standard PCT - punch in punch out. Don't fuck your system up. Obviously once you get into it the results, learn more of the actual facts instead of fear and experience the enjoyment from adding a new facet to life and making your goals more achievable my opinion has started to change. I'm getting curious about cruising and lengthier cycles. Training was an integral part of my life and who I am for so long and I'm so much better off being back at it.

1. How directly does length of shutdown of your HPTA affect difficulty of restart and recovery? This is a commonly spread concept but I'm not sure I've read or understood if I have, the science. The longer you are shutdown the harder it is to get it going again, at points impossible. Why exactly is this? Does the hypothalamus and pituary gland forget their functions, or shrink or degrade based on length of inactivity? With the introduction of HCG we can keep the testes basically functioning, taking care of that part of the equation right? I know a lot of these mechanisms vary from individual to individual.

2. Is HPTA shutdown an absolute concept? For instance.. 500mg of test for 10 weeks you are fully shutdown. Does it matter if you add in additional compounds and/or higher dosages to the equation or is it a simple shutdown or not answer? I understand these additions will affect lipid levels, hormone levels ect but as far as the HPTA alone what is the deal?

Thanks in advance for any input!

[Test Monsterone]

I'm not a Johnny expert on this, but I know an endo who I chat with about these things on occasion. Regarding the length of time on cycle vs recovery, she says the general rule is that the longer you are on, the longer it takes to recover. Usually. I'm sure everyone would agree. She mentioned there are some individuals who seem to bounce back to very normal and optimal levels even after being on for years. And, she says this is more common than you would think. As you probably know, there are also those that do 1 cycle and never fully recover. The reality, I would think, lies somewhere in the middle.

As for the effect of exogenous testosterone on suppression, she mentioned that suppression IS dose dependent. The more you take, the more suppressed you will be. Obviously if you don't take HCG your balls will shrivel up, and the leydig cells will become dormant. It is said that the longer they are dormant the harder they are to restart. Then the other suppression, which is really what causes the physical suppression of the testes, occurs in the pituitary/hypothalamus. Even taking HCG should theoretically suppress the pituitary gland in producing luteinizing hormone (LH). Yes, spermatogenesis/testicular function continues with HCG. I read a study that said the average amount required to maintain normal physiological levels of testosterone is around 700 iu/week. I take 500 iu/week with my TRT and the boys stay pretty full. Maybe around 80-90% of their original size by just cupping my hand around them.

I don't think anyone understands why the HPTA has the ability to seemingly shut down forever. The same endo I mentioned said that some men suffer with low T for years and then bounce back at some point... The body does what it does, and we can't explain everything. My theory is that stress, diet, and exercise play a very big role. I found I had low T at one of the worst points in my life - what came first, the chicken or the egg?

[Windex]

Compounds do play a role in degrees of shutdown but it's minor excluding a few outliers. Nandrolone will cause HPTA surpression on the first injection while Anavar is an only that takes longer (hence kids foolishly thinking Anavar only is a smart idea)

I think of the HPTA as a light switch fueled by a non rechargeable battery. Being on gear turns the light switch "off" and slowly drains the battery. At some unknown point, the battery drains completely out, making it impossible to recover and bounce back.

Duration is the limiting factor on recovery once suppression is reached. This is why 19nors are not a good choice for someone terrified of HRT became their chance to recover is lower. A 12 week Test cycle vs 12 Week Test + Deca has a different degree + duration of shutdown despite both being 12 weeks.

[DeeCee112]

Compounds do play a role in degrees of shutdown but it's minor excluding a few outliers. Nandrolone will cause HPTA surpression on the first injection while Anavar is an only that takes longer (hence kids foolishly thinking Anavar only is a smart idea)

I think of the HPTA as a light switch fueled by a non rechargeable battery. Being on gear turns the light switch "off" and slowly drains the battery. At some unknown point, the battery drains completely out, making it impossible to recover and bounce back.

Duration is the limiting factor on recovery once suppression is reached. This is why 19nors are not a good choice for someone terrified of HRT became their chance to recover is lower. A 12 week Test cycle vs 12 Week Test + Deca has a different degree + duration of shutdown despite both being 12 weeks.

That's exactly how I picture it. Like a phone battery, the older it gets and the harder you are on it the further from 100 percent charge it can get.

But what I'm wondering is are these all theories and broscience and either way WHY? What is happening to these systems when they are shutdown that causes them to struggle to restart and function?

[DeeCee112]

Nothing...?!

Okay well into the reason I'm digging:
Just thinking about running something like the following:

Complete test e 500mg a week cycle end of May(16weeks)

Cruise Dose 100mg a week or so
I'd have to figure out exact dose and do some more research. Cruise for the summer in order to ensure test stays near top end of range so I can continue slightly lower excess caloric intake diet to solidify new muscle. My theory is new muscle packed on so quickly hasn't "taken hold" by the time the standard cycle is finished so that's another reason you lose so much after.
3 to 4 months of cruise dose paired with less heavy weight (currently training with 1 or 2 Rep maxes combined with 8 Rep near failure sets usually) but more of a higher Rep and HIT style training should help the muscle establish and give joints a break. Another goal here will be to cure my ulser and get off my PPI, and to heal my shoulder issues better. I'll also be looking to add in HGH if I can afford it and/or peptides with healing properties to assist. This is also an option to off ramp and PCT instead of Blast #2.

Bulk Blast #2 Test Base with additional 1 or 2 compounds 12 to 14weeks few options to consider: likely try the Dbol kicker paired with one of the following var, deca, EQ or masteron. I like the sound of the joint therapy props of deca.

Final Cruise 100ish mg test 2 to 3 months
Theory is again, added time with top end of range test to solidify new muscle and fibre and better PCT coming from 100mg test without other compounds than straight off blast into pct. Not sure how valid that assumption is, if it isn't I will forgo this cruise and go straight to pct from 2nd blast. If this 2nd cruise is included it would be 1yr of being shutdown.

PCT Need to look into dosages and durations due to extended length of shutdown but standard Nolva and Clomid.
HCG will be run through the entire thing at standard 500iu weekly.

I understand noone can say yeah you'll be fine or yeah you won't so really just looking for input and experiences from guys that know this game better, thanks!

[Test Monsterone]

If you are already at your genetic limit (which you should be if you're thinking about cycling), then no amount or time will give you keepable gains past a few months of not taking gear. I just did my first cycle, after being at my genetic potential for a decade, and 4 months after the end (and I'm on 125 mg/week trt) I'm not looking any different than any one of those 10 years where I was at my natural max. And I've been eating great and working out consistently. It doesn't matter - you will slowly but surely lose anything you gained past your genetic potential unless you keep taking a higher dose of hormones. That's just from my short experience on steroids and years of research and testimonials.

[Couchlockd]

Blasting and cruising for a while should be considered a life Long commitment to the needle

[Obs]

Wasn't really sure how to title this but I have some questions and some assumptions Im wondering if are valid or not. Coming into this cycle and having no experience with AAS aside from observations of a few good friends cycles, heavy and mild, long and short length, and a few message boards I followed for a few years back in my early and mid 20s I was quite hardline with the thought of 1 cycle, standard or close to it length, standard PCT - punch in punch out. Don't fuck your system up. Obviously once you get into it the results, learn more of the actual facts instead of fear and experience the enjoyment from adding a new facet to life and making your goals more achievable my opinion has started to change. I'm getting curious about cruising and lengthier cycles. Training was an integral part of my life and who I am for so long and I'm so much better off being back at it.

1. How directly does length of shutdown of your HPTA affect difficulty of restart and recovery? This is a commonly spread concept but I'm not sure I've read or understood if I have, the science. The longer you are shutdown the harder it is to get it going again, at points impossible. Why exactly is this? Does the hypothalamus and pituary gland forget their functions, or shrink or degrade based on length of inactivity? With the introduction of HCG we can keep the testes basically functioning, taking care of that part of the equation right? I know a lot of these mechanisms vary from individual to individual.

2. Is HPTA shutdown an absolute concept? For instance.. 500mg of test for 10 weeks you are fully shutdown. Does it matter if you add in additional compounds and/or higher dosages to the equation or is it a simple shutdown or not answer? I understand these additions will affect lipid levels, hormone levels ect but as far as the HPTA alone what is the deal?

Thanks in advance for any input!

Its not guaranteed you will come back on after you cease even one cycle but most likely you will. You may not ever come back to 100% of pre cycle levels.

Personally I did fine running 16 weeks with test and later test deca and dbol.

Once I added tren I never came back on. Felt like hell. I started fights with my gf and knew exactly what I was doing. I could not bear to go to work and felt like shit every minute of every day so I started blasting and cruising.

Before starting look at it like it could turn into a marriage for life. Not just from a feel good standpoint but psycologically. I intended to get to point "X" and just trt the rest of my days. Now there is no way I could do that without a severe depression. Hell, I just dont think I could quit period. I would go off the deep end.

You work so hard to get to point X and then you reach it and arent satisfied and or cant maintain it on low dosages.

Personally though my test was in the low 400's and I thought, "Why am I trying to protect low natural levels when I can be high end all the time?"

The decision was a no brainer for me.
It is good you have the foresight to ask yourself these questions.

[GearHeaded]

this is something I've thought about but not really researched enough to put anything out there on it .. so I'm just going to say this with no supporting evidence, its just an idea.

one way to think of HPTA shut down is to think of it being 'binary' , like a 'switch' , its either off or on. when full suppression happens your shit is off , period. when your recovered your shit is on, period (even if its not 'on' to the degree you may want or at optimal levels, the actual HPTA system is still on ,, ie, the switch is on).

now think of a binary light switch in your house. you turn it on and the light comes on, your turn it off and the light goes off ... now lets say you turn the light switch off and leave it off for 3 months straight , well just because its left in the off position for a relatively long time does not mean its NOT going to work when you go back to flipping it in the on position.. again, off is off . length of time is not that big a factor.

in fact , when and how do you end up burning up that damn light bulb the fastest ? when you constantly flip the switch on and off 100 times a day .. the constant on and off burns the bulb out way quicker .

so perhaps being on cycle for 9 months out of the year, and then being off cycle for 3 months out of the year and only doing one PCT , and only having to flip that switch from ON/OFF once ... is better then doing a whole bunch of PCTs per year (after every little cycle you do) and constantly playing with that damn light switch like a kid and burning your shit out .

I don't think turning your shit on and off a whole bunch of times per year is the greatest idea and running all these PCTs all the time .

if your not commited to TRT or a blast and cruise then thats understandable . but perhaps a single PCT per year after being on for most the year is a better option then this constant off and on shit .


I'm just thinking out loud here.

[Couchlockd]

this is something I've thought about but not really researched enough to put anything out there on it .. so I'm just going to say this with no supporting evidence, its just an idea.

one way to think of HPTA shut down is to think of it being 'binary' , like a 'switch' , its either off or on. when full suppression happens your shit is off , period. when your recovered your shit is on, period (even if its not 'on' to the degree you may want or at optimal levels, the actual HPTA system is still on ,, ie, the switch is on).

now think of a binary light switch in your house. you turn it on and the light comes on, your turn it off and the light goes off ... now lets say you turn the light switch off and leave it off for 3 months straight , well just because its left in the off position for a relatively long time does not mean its NOT going to work when you go back to flipping it in the on position.. again, off is off . length of time is not that big a factor.

in fact , when and how do you end up burning up that damn light bulb the fastest ? when you constantly flip the switch on and off 100 times a day .. the constant on and off burns the bulb out way quicker .

so perhaps being on cycle for 9 months out of the year, and then being off cycle for 3 months out of the year and only doing one PCT , and only having to flip that switch from ON/OFF once ... is better then doing a whole bunch of PCTs per year (after every little cycle you do) and constantly playing with that damn light switch like a kid and burning your shit out .

I don't think turning your shit on and off a whole bunch of times per year is the greatest idea and running all these PCTs all the time .

if your not commited to TRT or a blast and cruise then thats understandable . but perhaps a single PCT per year after being on for most the year is a better option then this constant off and on shit .


I'm just thinking out loud here.

Makes sense, the argument with the battery analogy also makes sense.

I would think the most plausible idea here is the constant off and on being the worst scenario. As well as being the most plausible.

I do tend to believe the longer it's off the harder it may be to turn back on. But I don't think it's impossible to turn it back on after a few years, just will take alot of drugs to do so.

Like my first PCT. I cane back about 125 ng higher than before any steroids were in my life.

And I waited about a year after pct to run bloods. So I had no HPTA influence by lingering serms.

I feel if a guy suffered low t for a long time and cycled and showed his body what elevated testosterone was like it kind of primed the body to call for more once pct was finished.

I really wish science would quit with it's bullshit morality excuse and study cycling. What's more immoral, knowing there are thousands of people doing what we do and playing lab rat looking for answers or experimenting on a few hundred guys that would be willing to let them.

If the god damn DEA and FDA didn't schedule this shit like it is these experiments would have been conducted with conclusions by now

[Family_guy]

Makes sense, the argument with the battery analogy also makes sense.

I would think the most plausible idea here is the constant off and on being the worst scenario. As well as being the most plausible.

I do tend to believe the longer it's off the harder it may be to turn back on. But I don't think it's impossible to turn it back on after a few years, just will take alot of drugs to do so.

Like my first PCT. I cane back about 125 ng higher than before any steroids were in my life.

And I waited about a year after pct to run bloods. So I had no HPTA influence by lingering serms.

I feel if a guy suffered low t for a long time and cycled and showed his body what elevated testosterone was like it kind of primed the body to call for more once pct was finished.

I really wish science would quit with it's bullshit morality excuse and study cycling. What's more immoral, knowing there are thousands of people doing what we do and playing lab rat looking for answers or experimenting on a few hundred guys that would be willing to let them.

If the god damn DEA and FDA didn't schedule this shit like it is these experiments would have been conducted with conclusions by now

Great thread. Great question asked and some very plausible explanations. I also agree that shutting it on and off is more damaging in the long run than longer runs with one PCT a year.

As you know I’m a little over a month into my first cycle. I’m very interested in doing a somewhat similar idea to your year long cycle. I would add in different compound at different times. I just don’t see a reason to go with the “standard” 12 week cycle. Who came up with that as being the standard?? If we all just go along with conventional bro science wisdom and never try something new then we will never learn anything. This is a big science experiment we perform on ourselves everyday. Like you said a lot of the science just isn’t there due to many factors including gov regulations

[Couchlockd]

Great thread. Great question asked and some very plausible explanations. I also agree that shutting it on and off is more damaging in the long run than longer runs with one PCT a year.

As you know I’m a little over a month into my first cycle. I’m very interested in doing a somewhat similar idea to your year long cycle. I would add in different compound at different times. I just don’t see a reason to go with the “standard” 12 week cycle. Who came up with that as being the standard?? If we all just go along with conventional bro science wisdom and never try something new then we will never learn anything. This is a big science experiment we perform on ourselves everyday. Like you said a lot of the science just isn’t there due to many factors including gov regulations

I'd say blast and cruise at trt level dose until you really have got all your cycles out of your system then pct.

If trt is dialed in between cycles it's healthier for the body than a once in a blue moon PCT is.

In fact if low T naturally going back to those levels is more damaging to the body than a trt regimine

[DeeCee112]

Got all the heavyweights in here now aha thanks for the input guys.

I will state that commiting to TRT is not something I want. I am extremely driven to achieve my goals and fully understand the risk I am taking though. Do I want it bad enough that should I end up requiring it due to my decisions, that's a question Ill need to answer, but I am very well aware of the gamble at least. This is not something I'm taking lightly.

Pre cycle my test levels were not phenomenal but average, not optimal for achieving the physical level I wanted in the timeline I want it, and with the busy life I have but I'm hoping enough to sustain it once there.

Test Monsterone I do not agree with you, I believe, optimistic as it may be, that muscle mass is significantly more difficult to build than it is to sustain. Will it decay over time? Of course it will as I age but that's a clock no one is beating. Will I be able to maintain the same physique on standard test levels compared to the physique on 1g test, 1g deca obviously not! But the gains obtained and solidified can be held on to. And if it turns out I can't hold on to it at least I tried and loved it while I did!

Obs I know what your saying. As bodybuilders it is never good enough. I don't know exactly what it is but that finish line always moves. I guess best thing to is learn to recognize when the cost exceeds the next waypoint in the race and get off before its too late.

Couch, GH
To me I don't understand why length of shutdown would affect ability to restart unless length extends to say many years. Does the Hpta decay with inactivity? Or does length of shutdown simply make it harder to restart like a car engine sitting for too long. Might not fire on the first key turn, but some TLC, new oil, some additives and you can get it running.

When I started thinking about it, and unfortunately I can't find any study or science so like you guys it is just me using my noggin and comparing to other experience in life, light switches and bulbs and cars lol - putting the system through yoyo hormone levels seems counterproductive and more damaging.

Secondly and I know I'm going on here but why do we PCT straight off top end dosages and compounds? Why isn't it standard practice to taper dosages and eliminate axilliary compounds leading into PCT? Ie if running a cycle of 750mg test and 500mg Deca and 200mg EQ, why would you fire straight into nothing and then a crap load of serms? Why isn't it standard to phase out the auxiliaries, lower the test to TRT dose for 2 weeks and phase in an AI/anti progesterone to stabilize hormone levels AND then Segway into Nolva/Clomid?


I guess to summarize it you could say:

To achieve X(190lbs 12percent BF?) + Y (self sufficient Hpta)

Which path is best in terms of results/risk looking at a 1yr window:

Blast+Cruise PCT or Blast+Cruise 2 then PCT
Cycle PCT Cycle PCT

Phew... That escalated quickly

[GearHeaded]

I just want to note , there is a difference between "shutdown" and "suppression" .

If you ran Winny for 6 weeks, you may experience some suppression but your Hpta will likely not shut down, it will keep going and you'll still produce natty test. your light switch is officially still 'On' , even though you may have lowered the dimmer switch down a hair.

if you ran Tren, deca, with a gram of test , you may very likely go from being suppressed the first several weeks to totally shut down by the end of the run. your light switch is officially 'Off'

[GearHeaded]

Couch, GH
To me I don't understand why length of shutdown would affect ability to restart unless length extends to say many years. Does the Hpta decay with inactivity? Or does length of shutdown simply make it harder to restart like a car engine sitting for too long.

I'm not sure that length of time matters that much,, other then in regards to "shutdown' vs 'suppression'' . the longer your on cycle the more chance you have of going from being suppressed to being completely shutdown. but once shutdown itself actually happens, it does not matter if that lasts 2 weeks or 6 months. shut down is shut down, and restart is restart.

a 6 week moderate blast of test prop may not result in total shut down. but the longer you extend this out and the higher the dosage, the more chance of complete shut down happening.
so again length of time matters in regards to going from suppression to complete shutdown .. but once your light switch is totally off, and your shut down, its game over.. wither that lasts a month or a year. the exact same aggressive PCT will likely be required and the exact same results will likely come about. imo (which is all have I, being this is a topic I've not really dove into very much)

[Test Monsterone]

Test Monsterone I do not agree with you, I believe, optimistic as it may be, that muscle mass is significantly more difficult to build than it is to sustain. Will it decay over time? Of course it will as I age but that's a clock no one is beating. Will I be able to maintain the same physique on standard test levels compared to the physique on 1g test, 1g deca obviously not! But the gains obtained and solidified can be held on to. And if it turns out I can't hold on to it at least I tried and loved it while I did!

Well, I would like it to be the way you say. Put it this way, I was at my genetic limit before starting my cycle and then going into TRT. I ran the cycle, gained some mass (not much just 8 lbs), and now 4 months later (on TRT and HCG) I'm back to where I was before I ran the cycle. The cycle was 3 months long. I still train just as hard and my diet has gotten even better over the last 4 months. So from my experience, once you get to your genetic limit, it's hard keeping gains without maintaining higher levels. Maybe others can chime in on this with their experiences - but this was mine.

[GearHeaded]

Well, I would like it to be the way you say. Put it this way, I was at my genetic limit before starting my cycle and then going into TRT. I ran the cycle, gained some mass (not much just 8 lbs), and now 4 months later (on TRT and HCG) I'm back to where I was before I ran the cycle. The cycle was 3 months long. I still train just as hard and my diet has gotten even better over the last 4 months. So from my experience, once you get to your genetic limit, it's hard keeping gains without maintaining higher levels. Maybe others can chime in on this with their experiences - but this was mine.

not my experience , but heres another example.

Kevin Levrone has the best genetics in all of bodybuilding.. spent decades building quality muscle. but even he is not able to maintain his gains when off cycle

on cycle Kevin


off cycle Kevin



also keep in mind that TRT is not much help . TRT is what your 90 year old neighbor is on to still get morning wood. it doesn't do anything for maintaining muscle past your genetic potential as all TRT does is provide you with 'normal' test levels . nothing more

[Test Monsterone]

not my experience , but heres another example.

Kevin Levrone has the best genetics in all of bodybuilding.. spent decades building quality muscle. but even he is not able to maintain his gains when off cycle

on cycle Kevin


off cycle Kevin



also keep in mind that TRT is not much help . TRT is what your 90 year old neighbor is on to still get morning wood. it doesn't do anything for maintaining muscle past your genetic potential as all TRT does is provide you with 'normal' test levels . nothing more

So you don't agree with me, but then you provide evidence that agrees with me? lol...

Yes, TRT doesn't do much, which is my point. And the guy asking questions essentially wants to know if he runs multiple cycles if he can keep the gains after PCT. So, by this logic, he should have an even harder time keeping gains since even with TRT it's hard to keep gains. Going off completely and having to recover your natty levels almost guarantees you won't keep those gains. Again... if you reached your genetic limit. I don't know how many of you reached your genetic limit before taking steroids, but I did. Now if you're doing cycles and only going off for 2-3 months, then yeah, you might be able to keep something.

Literally everyone I know who took steroids and came off went back to their pre-cycle body.

[GearHeaded]

So you don't agree with me, but then you provide evidence that agrees with me? lol... .

I never said I didn't agree with you . it was DeeCee that didn't agree. you simply asked other people to chime in , so I simply chimed in

[GearHeaded]

heres an example of how this works

if you build your vettes engine to be capable of 1000 boosted horsepower, with quality pistons, rods, cam, etc.. the raw material is there for 1000hp . however without the actual 'boost' , (ie, turbo or supercharger) being applied its only putting out say 600hp 'naturally' aspirated.
sure you've built the raw materials (ie the muscle) and that will always be there. but no matter what its not hitting that 1000hp without the boost being applied.

same with the body. you build all the muscle you want or can, even using gear. the raw material is there at the cellular level.. however those cells are not going to expand to supraphysiolgical levels and those cells aren't going to hold a shit ton more glycogen and proteins then is humanly possible without the 'boost' , ie drugs, being applied.
its never going to look in its natural state like it will look when on drugs . ever. does not matter how much raw material you built over the years.. that raw material does not blow up without the juice/boost

[kelkel]

I'm not sure that length of time matters that much,, other then in regards to "shutdown' vs 'suppression'' . the longer your on cycle the more chance you have of going from being suppressed to being completely shutdown. but once shutdown itself actually happens, it does not matter if that lasts 2 weeks or 6 months. shut down is shut down, and restart is restart.

Agree. There's no degree of shutdown. It's all or nothing. There's no "timer" on your hpta saying that it's been shut down for 6 months and suddenly restarting is impossible where it would have been at 3 months.

not my experience , but heres another example.

Kevin Levrone has the best genetics in all of bodybuilding.. spent decades building quality muscle. but even he is not able to maintain his gains when off cycle

on cycle Kevin


off cycle Kevin



also keep in mind that TRT is not much help . TRT is what your 90 year old neighbor is on to still get morning wood. it doesn't do anything for maintaining muscle past your genetic potential as all TRT does is provide you with 'normal' test levels . nothing more

If I recall correctly though Kevin didn't just come off cycle he completely stopped lifting weights for years as well, making his losses much more dramatic.

[DeeCee112]

Now I don't want to derail this into a discussion about genetic potentials because those aren't the answers I'm looking for, I'm decided on that question already and if I'm wrong the only way I'm going to realize it is by learning it first hand anyway,and like I said enjoying every minute of the ride and if the price I pay ends up being TRT, that isn't the end of the world either.

Buuut because I can't just turn down a good debate what is GENETIC max? Are there other ceilings you can bypass before genetic potential that allow you to maintain above? Who actually reaches their GENETIC potential before steroids? Could I naturally make it to 190lbs? Maybe, but maybe it would've taken 5 to 8 more years of religious diet and training. Was I there when I started? No,likely not I spent years spinning my wheels for sure and then after a few years off I decided to cycle to help me at the least get back to where I was. Why do you have to be at your genetic ceiling to be allowed to cycle? If you are going to do it anyway why wait? I waited 10 years and watched so many guys fly by me and for what? To wait for my natural test to start depleting anyway?

Im not talking about maintaining a 5'7 225lb shredded ifbb physique for the next 30yrs here though either.

There is a difference between maintaining a build that was built with 5 to 10 years of high powered, high dosage compounds compared to achieving and then maintaining something assisted by utilizing a cycle a year or so and the added nutrient absorption, strength and other benefits of moderate doses of compounds. I would be more than happy if I top out the onslaught of improvement from my first cycle with a couple pounds of quality meat a year and then even just maintaining it through my 30s, 40s and onwards. Basically - living at or slightly above top end performance and physique for age category.

[Test Monsterone]

I never said I didn't agree with you . it was DeeCee that didn't agree. you simply asked other people to chime in , so I simply chimed in

You stated "not my experience," which in response to my original post I took to mean you didn't agree that you can't keep your muscles past genetic limits when going back to natty. Sorry I misunderstood.

In regards to your second post, it sounds like you're talking about cellular hyperplasia vs. proliferation. The hyperplasia being the "boosted" look you get on steroids from the cells storing more glycogen, etc. as you mention. Then you are inferring that skeletal muscle cells multiply as well, but do not provide the look of being "on" without the "boost," ie steroids.


From my understanding cells experience hyperplasia through weight training but don't really multiply. On the other hand, it is said, and my lab work confirms, that IGF-1 increases while on steroids. Wouldn't IGF-1 increase the proliferation of muscle cells, though? I'm not sure what the mechanisms are for muscle cell proliferation in regards to IGF-1 levels.

If there is indeed a proliferation of skeletal muscle cells during a steroid cycle, then it should result in a change in the shape of the muscle even when not on steroids - unless I don't have the full picture. Did you ever go down to a very clinical dose of testosterone (< 200 mg/week) for an extended time, say over 6 months, and have you kept any gains (if you were at genetic limit prior to starting)? I ask this because I know a lot of guys start before they reach their genetic potential, and at that point we cannot make an accurate assessment.

[GearHeaded]

You stated "not my experience," which in response to my original post I took to mean you didn't agree that you can't keep your muscles past genetic limits when going back to natty. Sorry I misunderstood. .

yeah I meant ''not my experience, but Kevin Levrones experience" . figured he would be a better anecdotal evidence candidate then myself

[Test Monsterone]

Now I don't want to derail this into a discussion about genetic potentials because those aren't the answers I'm looking for, I'm decided on that question already and if I'm wrong the only way I'm going to realize it is by learning it first hand anyway,and like I said enjoying every minute of the ride and if the price I pay ends up being TRT, that isn't the end of the world either.

Buuut because I can't just turn down a good debate what is GENETIC max? Are there other ceilings you can bypass before genetic potential that allow you to maintain above? Who actually reaches their GENETIC potential before steroids? Could I naturally make it to 190lbs? Maybe, but maybe it would've taken 5 to 8 more years of religious diet and training. Was I there when I started? No,likely not I spent years spinning my wheels for sure and then after a few years off I decided to cycle to help me at the least get back to where I was. Why do you have to be at your genetic ceiling to be allowed to cycle? If you are going to do it anyway why wait? I waited 10 years and watched so many guys fly by me and for what? To wait for my natural test to start depleting anyway?

Im not talking about maintaining a 5'7 225lb shredded ifbb physique for the next 30yrs here though either.

There is a difference between maintaining a build that was built with 5 to 10 years of high powered, high dosage compounds compared to achieving and then maintaining something assisted by utilizing a cycle a year or so and the added nutrient absorption, strength and other benefits of moderate doses of compounds. I would be more than happy if I top out the onslaught of improvement from my first cycle with a couple pounds of quality meat a year and then even just maintaining it through my 30s, 40s and onwards. Basically - living at or slightly above top end performance and physique for age category.

Genetic potential is when you have trained consistently, dieted correctly, and provided the best possible environment for your muscles to grow - and yet - your physique has not improved significantly or you have stopped reaching your goals. If your body doesn't change in 2-3 years, you've probably reached your limit. I believe an adult male in his early 20's can reach his genetic potential in 3-4 years. At this point the changes year to year will be miniscule, until the body begins to revert/age. It's hard to judge genetic potential because only you can assess your own potential, but you have to be objective, which none of us are with ourselves.

The reasons you should wait until genetic potential to take steroids are numerous:
1. If you never reached your genetic potential then you may lack the dedication, consistency, and mental tenacity to reach your goals on steroids.
2. You are better equipped to reach your goals on steroids if you were able to reach your limit off.
3. If you take steroids before your genetic limit is reached, when you get off steroids, your body will revert back to it's former self, and not your genetic limit self. (This is covered by many bodybuilders as being true, and something I believe in. I don't think there is an official study on this).

[GearHeaded]

In regards to your second post, it sounds like you're talking about cellular hyperplasia vs. proliferation. The hyperplasia being the "boosted" look you get on steroids from the cells storing more glycogen, etc. as you mention. Then you are inferring that skeletal muscle cells multiply as well, but do not provide the look of being "on" without the "boost," ie steroids.


From my understanding cells experience hyperplasia through weight training but don't really multiply. On the other hand, it is said, and my lab work confirms, that IGF-1 increases while on steroids. Wouldn't IGF-1 increase the proliferation of muscle cells, though? I'm not sure what the mechanisms are for muscle cell proliferation in regards to IGF-1 levels.

If there is indeed a proliferation of skeletal muscle cells during a steroid cycle, then it should result in a change in the shape of the muscle even when not on steroids - unless I don't have the full picture.

the discussion on hyperplasia, satellite cell proliferation ,etc. is an interesting one and is more then relevant regarding the topic of ones ability to hold on to muscle on or off cycle . however I don't want to completely derail OP's thread on this.

I'll just add this.. muscle cells are unique in that they are multiple nuclei cells (ie, have more then one nucleus). when AAS bind to cell receptors and transduce various messages to the cell, like protein synthesis, etc.. one thing that can result is the creation of more and more cell nuclei (and of course satellite cell proliferation).
so YES there is an actual permanent structural change that happens to muscle over time when on AAS, and that will forever stay that way even when coming off AAS.
like I said in my example, the permanent structure will always be there (ie, the engine is built for 1000hp even if its never boosted and utilized to that degree).

not too long back I was severely injured, had multiple surgeries and bed ridden for a year.. several years of my bodybuilding "lifestyle" was gone and I lost probably 40 or more pounds of muscle, dropping all the way down into the 160s pound range.
well when I came back, was able to train again and juice again, the structure I had previously built was still there (it was just small and dormant). I'm now back to a lean 212 pounds. yes the AAS helped accelerate this process.

[GearHeaded]

Did you ever go down to a very clinical dose of testosterone (< 200 mg/week) for an extended time, say over 6 months, and have you kept any gains (if you were at genetic limit prior to starting)? I ask this because I know a lot of guys start before they reach their genetic potential, and at that point we cannot make an accurate assessment.

yes I've cruised all 'natty' off and on over the years several times. in fact I've went off TRT even for 8 months (no pct, and no natty test production as I got on TRT a decade or so back with test levels of 160).
I did NOT keep gains.

I believe my natural limit/set point to be about 190 pounds at 5'9" tall and 11% body fat (with a 28" waist).. thats not really impressive , but if I was to never cycle again and just be on TRT , this would be where I would stay at (with continuing diet and training). it is what it is, thats my genetics

my on cycle set point , say while bulking with wet compounds. 220 pounds at 5'9 and about 14% body fat (with a 31" waist).
of course the longer I keep training and eating, the more drugs I take, the more HGH and insulin I take, these stats will likely keep creeping up . however the previous stats I listed while on TRT will likely never go up

[DeeCee112]

Well I did not know that a cell could have multiple nuclei, that's interested. But yes I think I can maintain the physique I want with a cycle a year or so once I reach there... again, not talking 30 or 40lbs of shredded fibres above my absolute genetic ceiling. And either way if I'm Kevin Lerone at 50 yrs old and worse case is back to a non AAS using peak physique I can think of much worse ways to spend the next 20yrs.

The one question I'm super curious about that hasn't really been touched on though I asked in an earlier post:

Why is it standard practice to PCT right out of the peak AAS cycles? After 12 to 14 weeks of blasting test and however many compounds why do we preach to just stop and then fire a bunch more new drugs to pct? Would it not be better to taper to low dose for two weeks, dial in ancillary to lower estrogen, prolactin progesterone ect, maybe increase hcg and have a 2 week pre-pct period?

Or is it just accepted that it's more important to have a the shortest length of hpta Shutdown possible while maximizing peak efficiency of compounds before they taper down? I've read a few times that after about 14 weeks the efficiency rating drops significantly for testosterone anyway as your body kind of stabilizes and slows the rapid growth.

[kelkel]

Would it not be better to taper to low dose for two weeks, dial in ancillary to lower estrogen, prolactin progesterone ect, maybe increase hcg and have a 2 week pre-pct period?

The drugs taper themselves.

[Chrisp83TRT]

Nothing...?!

Okay well into the reason I'm digging:
Just thinking about running something like the following:

Complete test e 500mg a week cycle end of May(16weeks)

Cruise Dose 100mg a week or so
I'd have to figure out exact dose and do some more research. Cruise for the summer in order to ensure test stays near top end of range so I can continue slightly lower excess caloric intake diet to solidify new muscle. My theory is new muscle packed on so quickly hasn't "taken hold" by the time the standard cycle is finished so that's another reason you lose so much after.
3 to 4 months of cruise dose paired with less heavy weight (currently training with 1 or 2 Rep maxes combined with 8 Rep near failure sets usually) but more of a higher Rep and HIT style training should help the muscle establish and give joints a break. Another goal here will be to cure my ulser and get off my PPI, and to heal my shoulder issues better. I'll also be looking to add in HGH if I can afford it and/or peptides with healing properties to assist. This is also an option to off ramp and PCT instead of Blast #2.

Bulk Blast #2 Test Base with additional 1 or 2 compounds 12 to 14weeks few options to consider: likely try the Dbol kicker paired with one of the following var, deca, EQ or masteron. I like the sound of the joint therapy props of deca.

Final Cruise 100ish mg test 2 to 3 months
Theory is again, added time with top end of range test to solidify new muscle and fibre and better PCT coming from 100mg test without other compounds than straight off blast into pct. Not sure how valid that assumption is, if it isn't I will forgo this cruise and go straight to pct from 2nd blast. If this 2nd cruise is included it would be 1yr of being shutdown.

PCT Need to look into dosages and durations due to extended length of shutdown but standard Nolva and Clomid.
HCG will be run through the entire thing at standard 500iu weekly.

I understand noone can say yeah you'll be fine or yeah you won't so really just looking for input and experiences from guys that know this game better, thanks!

I look at it like this ...

If the goal is to grow and be pretty jacked and diesel and to keep improving body ...

Blast and cruise is your best goal as pct will carry very difficult or impossible to hold all or any gains from your cycle.

If you have lower test levels like myself ( not even gear related ) trt is the way to go and you can feel and look good with proper nutrition and training.

Just my opinion anyone in this lifestyle should consider trt for life as we will all most likely have to consider it in out later days.

Hope my non educational Info has helped hah

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[Chrisp83TRT]

Also if you feel you aren't ready , keep asking questions and continue researching till you are.
Also if this something you are really interested in, do it man.
Just know everything there is to know.

Fear is a lil bitch that keeps us from pushing to see full potential.
Your body is a form of experiment. See what works and what doesn't.

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[Family_guy]

Also if you feel you aren't ready , keep asking questions and continue researching till you are.
Also if this something you are really interested in, do it man.
Just know everything there is to know.

Fear is a lil bitch that keeps us from pushing to see full potential.
Your body is a form of experiment. See what works and what doesn't.

Sent from my JSN-AL00 using Tapatalk

Yes! Chris nailed it! Obviously be safe but this is all experimental for the most part. Find out what works for you. Don’t do it just cuz that’s what people say is the best or that’s what’s always been done

[CA_DXB_85]

This is a good read for this topic (if you haven't read it already, DeeCee) :

https://forums.steroid.com/pct-post-...ml#post7456000

[5millionbucks]

Well, I would like it to be the way you say. Put it this way, I was at my genetic limit before starting my cycle and then going into TRT. I ran the cycle, gained some mass (not much just 8 lbs), and now 4 months later (on TRT and HCG) I'm back to where I was before I ran the cycle. The cycle was 3 months long. I still train just as hard and my diet has gotten even better over the last 4 months. So from my experience, once you get to your genetic limit, it's hard keeping gains without maintaining higher levels. Maybe others can chime in on this with their experiences - but this was mine.

So wait what is your pre cycle stats then? Just curious; cause I just saw a video with Jerry Ward and he always reverts back to his pre cycle stats when he was 19 when he comes of all the drugs. But then again Big J whos pretty big still; like 5'9 260lbs around 15-18% bodyfat or so with abs has been off for years is holding a good amount of size. I believe if he dieted down he would be 220lbs shredded at 5'9. I believe in the whole genetic limit though; some people can hold more muscle than others; for example take a look at Chris Jones; dude is 5'6-5'7 185lbs shredded(bbc genes); and then you got people who are 5'10 that can get above a 180lbs lean no matter how hard they try. My cousin while he was natty was 174-176lbs at 12% bodyfat sitting at 5'6-5'7; pretty sure he would of able to get to 180-190lbs if he kept working out and eating the same.

[Test Monsterone]

So wait what is your pre cycle stats then? Just curious; cause I just saw a video with Jerry Ward and he always reverts back to his pre cycle stats when he was 19 when he comes of all the drugs. But then again Big J whos pretty big still; like 5'9 260lbs around 15-18% bodyfat or so with abs has been off for years is holding a good amount of size. I believe if he dieted down he would be 220lbs shredded at 5'9. I believe in the whole genetic limit though; some people can hold more muscle than others; for example take a look at Chris Jones; dude is 5'6-5'7 185lbs shredded(bbc genes); and then you got people who are 5'10 that can get above a 180lbs lean no matter how hard they try. My cousin while he was natty was 174-176lbs at 12% bodyfat sitting at 5'6-5'7; pretty sure he would of able to get to 180-190lbs if he kept working out and eating the same.

I'm 6'2". Before my cycle I was 250 lbs at around 17% Bf. Way leaner than Big J - I think that dude is over 20% bf. Abs are also genetic - for some people it shows at a higher body fat than others.

At the end of the cycle I was 258 lbs, maybe 16% bf.

I don't know Big J that well, other than from the videos he made with Rich Piana, but I would say that anyone who took steroids for a significant time and said they came "off" pretty much means they're now on TRT. Some stay on higher doses of "TRT" like at 200-400 mg/week (which that isn't TRT imo). Even at only 125 mg/week my HDL cholesterol is at the lower limit.

[5millionbucks]

I'm 6'2". Before my cycle I was 250 lbs at around 17% Bf. Way leaner than Big J - I think that dude is over 20% bf. Abs are also genetic - for some people it shows at a higher body fat than others.

At the end of the cycle I was 258 lbs, maybe 16% bf.

I don't know Big J that well, other than from the videos he made with Rich Piana, but I would say that anyone who took steroids for a significant time and said they came "off" pretty much means they're now on TRT. Some stay on higher doses of "TRT" like at 200-400 mg/week (which that isn't TRT imo). Even at only 125 mg/week my HDL cholesterol is at the lower limit.

yes people say that; but in the vid he said that he was on trt; then just came off completely cause he felt that he didn't need it; just like how dave was on trt after coming off and then just came off completely till now. Some people actually jsut come off and feel fine; and some people can't go without it.

[5millionbucks]

But 258lbs 6'2 17% bodyfat seems pretty maxed out imo.

[Windex]

But 258lbs 6'2 17% bodyfat seems pretty maxed out imo.

I wouldn't say thats maxed out

[Family_guy]

I wouldn't say thats maxed out

Of course it doesn’t to you. That’s a pretty big mofo

[Obs]

I wouldn't say thats maxed out

Of course you wouldnt have anything positive to say about anyone ever.

We get it.