First Cycle For Advanced Lifter

[Mula]

I'm 27yrs and currently on my maximum training capacity. My current maxes are 190KG Squat and 210KG Deadlift for 5'8 tall and 190 pounds. I estimate myself at 14% body fat and have a hard time at getting leaner without losing strength.

Lately i'm also having a very hard time recovering from my workouts due to intensity of the weights and volume. My workouts are feeling quite difficult lately and my recovery sucks ass from all those heavy weights.

I can't function properly like other people around me in day to day activities as a result. Caffeine can sometimes help me to an extent, it has its limits though unfortunately.

I've been thinking of doing a cycle (my first cycle) and read through the test only sticky and the function/efficiency/benefits of different AAS and stacking them together.

From what i can read from different sources/forums many are advising to do a test only cycle as your first cycle (which i can totally understand due to newbie/inadequate/risky individuals). IMHO this might not be the best cycle for my goals though.

Gearheaded has also posted several times on here that this is some kind of broscience invented by some kind of forum bro which has been passed through through the years.

SO from my point of view let's say i'm a total healthy 27yrs young guy who's been training for several years seriously on core lifts, eating whole foods, taking vitamins/fish oil/magnesium/creatine, and almost achieved his maximum potential.

I would like to reap the most benefits from my first cycle.

I've been thinking of combining either:

Test/Anavar
Test/Winstrol
Test/Masteron
Test/Primobolan
Test/Anavar/Winstrol
Test/Anavar/Masteron
Test/Anavar/Primobolan
Test/Anavar/Winstrol/EQ
Test/Anavar/Masteron/EQ
Test/Anavar/Primobolan/EQ

My main goals are: increased recovery/strength/endurance and vascularity/harder/leaner

A whole lot of combinations are possible but i think 2 to 4 compounds might be more than enough for the first time. From what i've read combining some of these compounds can even reduce side effects of other compounds. This can ultimately result in a safer cycle than intended.

[TRA]

I'm 27yrs and currently on my maximum training capacity. My current maxes are 190KG Squat and 210KG Deadlift for 5'8 tall and 190 pounds. I estimate myself at 14% body fat and have a hard time at getting leaner without losing strength.

Lately i'm also having a very hard time recovering from my workouts due to intensity of the weights and volume. My workouts are feeling quite difficult lately and my recovery sucks ass from all those heavy weights.

I can't function properly like other people around me in day to day activities as a result. Caffeine can sometimes help me to an extent, it has its limits though unfortunately.

I've been thinking of doing a cycle (my first cycle) and read through the test only sticky and the function/efficiency/benefits of different AAS and stacking them together.

From what i can read from different sources/forums many are advising to do a test only cycle as your first cycle (which i can totally understand due to newbie/inadequate/risky individuals). IMHO this might not be the best cycle for my goals though.

Gearheaded has also posted several times on here that this is some kind of broscience invented by some kind of forum bro which has been passed through through the years.

SO from my point of view let's say i'm a total healthy 27yrs young guy who's been training for several years seriously on core lifts, eating whole foods, taking vitamins/fish oil/magnesium/creatine, and almost achieved his maximum potential.

I would like to reap the most benefits from my first cycle.

I've been thinking of combining either:

Test/Anavar
Test/Winstrol
Test/Masteron
Test/Primobolan
Test/Anavar/Winstrol
Test/Anavar/Masteron
Test/Anavar/Primobolan
Test/Anavar/Winstrol/EQ
Test/Anavar/Masteron/EQ
Test/Anavar/Primobolan/EQ

My main goals are: increased recovery/strength/endurance and vascularity/harder/leaner

A whole lot of combinations are possible but i think 2 to 4 compounds might be more than enough for the first time. From what i've read combining some of these compounds can even reduce side effects of other compounds. This can ultimately result in a safer cycle than intended.

You’re going to get a buttload of opinions on this one and the deal is, some, all or none of what you are told may pertain to you because you are unique, like we all are.
The only thing I’ll chirp in with is the advantage to a test only cycle for your first run is you can get decent results and any sides you know to attribute to the test. If you start with a bunch of compounds you may not know which is causing a side so which you might not be able to tolerate or need to adjust. I like the idea of starting simple and ramping up simply for the fact that you can learn as you go, see how your body responds to different compounds and then really dial it in at some point. Just shotgunning makes that a lot more difficult and if you have to cut a cycle short because of sides or an unexpected issue you’ve potentially wasted time, money and subjected yourself to something that may have been avoided with a more structured approach.
You’re still fairly young, but if you were going to go ahead anyway I would say start simple and build, taking care to monitor labs, address bp and cholesterol issues, and do good PCT. That way you can manage to be around for a long time and some pretty gnarly cycles at some point.

[Windex]

I'm 27yrs and currently on my maximum training capacity. My current maxes are 190KG Squat and 210KG Deadlift for 5'8 tall and 190 pounds. I estimate myself at 14% body fat and have a hard time at getting leaner without losing strength.

Lately i'm also having a very hard time recovering from my workouts due to intensity of the weights and volume. My workouts are feeling quite difficult lately and my recovery sucks ass from all those heavy weights.

I can't function properly like other people around me in day to day activities as a result. Caffeine can sometimes help me to an extent, it has its limits though unfortunately.

I've been thinking of doing a cycle (my first cycle) and read through the test only sticky and the function/efficiency/benefits of different AAS and stacking them together.

From what i can read from different sources/forums many are advising to do a test only cycle as your first cycle (which i can totally understand due to newbie/inadequate/risky individuals). IMHO this might not be the best cycle for my goals though.

Gearheaded has also posted several times on here that this is some kind of broscience invented by some kind of forum bro which has been passed through through the years.

SO from my point of view let's say i'm a total healthy 27yrs young guy who's been training for several years seriously on core lifts, eating whole foods, taking vitamins/fish oil/magnesium/creatine, and almost achieved his maximum potential.

I would like to reap the most benefits from my first cycle.

I've been thinking of combining either:

Test/Anavar
Test/Winstrol
Test/Masteron
Test/Primobolan
Test/Anavar/Winstrol
Test/Anavar/Masteron
Test/Anavar/Primobolan
Test/Anavar/Winstrol/EQ
Test/Anavar/Masteron/EQ
Test/Anavar/Primobolan/EQ

My main goals are: increased recovery/strength/endurance and vascularity/harder/leaner

A whole lot of combinations are possible but i think 2 to 4 compounds might be more than enough for the first time. From what i've read combining some of these compounds can even reduce side effects of other compounds. This can ultimately result in a safer cycle than intended.

Step 1 is bloodwork.

If you are 14% body fat then you will be losing out on half the benefits of Masteron.

Running four compounds on a first cycle means you aren't going to know how your body reacts to any one compound.

Permanent vascularity is going to come from nutrition and reducing the water under skin and muscle, dropping body fat.

I'm an advocate of KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) and no I am not calling you stupid. Just run Test with either Anavar or Winny.

If you are having problems functioning daily and with recovery - that is a flaw in your program, not because of lack of gear. Either need a deload protocol, better nutrition (pre/post/intra), missing nutrients, sleep, etc.

Taking vitamins, fish oil, and other food based supplements are only good if they are activated and/or correct version. For example with fish oil, poor quality can oxidize and actually cause detriment to your body instead of benefit. Same story with vitamins. This is why there are so many studies saying Vitamins cause [insert disease or illness here]. There's only a handful of companies that make proper vitamins fish oil etc, the other 99% is garbage.

The max lifts are irrelevant to your genetic potential by the way.

The test only suggestion has nothing to do with being a "newbie" or safety. By design injecting exogenous hormones into the body, to achieve supraphysiological levels is unsafe. The protocols, procedures, and best practises aim to minimize + control the risk.

[Test Monsterone]

If you are indeed an "advanced" lifter, then you must have at least 10 years of training under your belt, right? If so, why are you so eager to stack compounds, which you have no idea how your body will react to? If you had the tenacity to train naturally all these years, why can't you use the same tenacity to do it the smart way and use 1 compound, then 1 + 1, then 1 + 2, etc, as you gain experience and knowledge of steroids and your body. Any idiot can stack steroids and get big, don't you want to see how your body reacts and be able to accurately circumvent any possible deleterious effects of said compounds?

[Octaneforce]

If you are as diligent towards training as you say you are, you will grow like a weed with just test. Drugs are only a small percentage of what it takes to get what you want in this game. Diet and training is the deciding factor. Check out the my first cycle sticky. Its a great guide. The only thing id change about it is the aromatase inhibitors. I think the use of ai in that sticky is a little heavy. You dont need big doses at all unless your super sensitive.

[Family_guy]

Op for what it’s worth I think you Can’t go wrong either way. Test only first cycle is fine but why limit yourself to one compound? Your already gonna shut down your HPTA. Why not add in some real Anabolics? That could be your winny or var or primo. I don’t think you can go wrong with any of those 3. Those are 3 of the safer compounds to run. I’m about to add in EQ to my first cycle. I might even add something else in down the road a little bit.

I’m no expert on all this by any means but I do read a lot and listen to some guys that really know their shit. I’ve learned a lot from Gear too. He always has knowledge to share.

Anyways like I said that’s my 2cents. I say add in a couple compounds plus your Test.

[Mula]

Thinking about Test/Anavar/Winstrol.

Basically kickstart anavar and winstrol finisher.

But not sure about winstrol (tab form) because of liver toxicity.

What would my cycle ideally look like if i go with a 10 week cycle?

Test 400mg/week Week 1-10
Anavar Week 1-8? (50mg ed)
Winstrol Week 4-10? (50mg ed)

[Test Monsterone]

So you ignore everything everyone said except family guy, who just started his first cycle. I guess you just want people to give you the green light with what you already want to do.

Family guy, no offense, but adding EQ later in the cycle makes no sense. It takes around 8 weeks to kick in and should be started with, not ended with. I find it hard to believe Gear ever recommended doing multiple compounds in the first cycle, and adding EQ later in the cycle.

[i_SLAM_cougars]

If you’re wanting to see an immediate increase in max lifts why not throw in some dianabol for the first 4 weeks? That’ll get you rockin’ and rollin’ until the test really hits around week 5.

[Windex]

Thinking about Test/Anavar/Winstrol.

Basically kickstart anavar and winstrol finisher.

But not sure about winstrol (tab form) because of liver toxicity.

What would my cycle ideally look like if i go with a 10 week cycle?

Test 400mg/week Week 1-10
Anavar Week 1-8? (50mg ed)
Winstrol Week 4-10? (50mg ed)

100mg a day of oral steroids on a first run is a good way to punch your dick right into your liver.

[Family_guy]

So you ignore everything everyone said except family guy, who just started his first cycle. I guess you just want people to give you the green light with what you already want to do.

Family guy, no offense, but adding EQ later in the cycle makes no sense. It takes around 8 weeks to kick in and should be started with, not ended with. I find it hard to believe Gear ever recommended doing multiple compounds in the first cycle, and adding EQ later in the cycle.

Gear was the one who recommended to me in the first place to not do a test only cycle. That’s not what I was saying in my first post though. The reason I’m gonna add in the EQ is cuz I’m not running a 12 week cycle. I’m gonna extend it at least another 4-6 weeks . So if I added in the EQ now that’s still another 8-12 weeks.

Also if you front load the EQ which I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t with such a long ester then it doesn’t take very long to reach peak levels

[Family_guy]

100mg a day of oral steroids on a first run is a good way to punch your dick right into your liver.

Lmao! That’s an expression I’ve never heard before! “Punch your dick right into your liver”!? Whatever that means it doesn’t sound good

[Family_guy]

Gear was the one who recommended to me in the first place to not do a test only cycle. That’s not what I was saying in my first post though. The reason I’m gonna add in the EQ is cuz I’m not running a 12 week cycle. I’m gonna extend it at least another 4-6 weeks . So if I added in the EQ now that’s still another 8-12 weeks.

Also if you front load the EQ which I don’t see why anyone wouldn’t with such a long ester then it doesn’t take very long to reach peak levels

Just to clarify though. Gear did not reccomend that I add in EQ at this point. He recommended I add in a stronger anabolic from the start. The adding in another compound like EQ right now is my own idea.

[Mula]

100mg a day of oral steroids on a first run is a good way to punch your dick right into your liver.

Ok guess Test/Anavar/Winstrol is a no go

What about Test/Anavar/Primo or Test/Anavar/Masteron then?

[Old Duffer]

Can I ask why 10 weeks?

[Mula]

Why not?

[Windex]

Ok guess Test/Anavar/Winstrol is a no go

What about Test/Anavar/Primo or Test/Anavar/Masteron then?

If you can't grow off a first cycle with two compounds then you failed in nutrition and training.

[Old Duffer]

Why not?

If you pushed out closer to 12-14 weeks you could do test/Anavar/winny and not overlap the orals.

I'm at the advice giving point where you're gonna do whatever you want any so just do it as safely as possible, eh?

[Family_guy]

If you pushed out closer to 12-14 weeks you could do test/Anavar/winny and not overlap the orals.

I'm at the advice giving point where you're gonna do whatever you want any so just do it as safely as possible, eh?

Exactly! Thanks duff. You said it better than I could have.

[Mula]

If you pushed out closer to 12-14 weeks you could do test/Anavar/winny and not overlap the orals.

I'm at the advice giving point where you're gonna do whatever you want any so just do it as safely as possible, eh?

Ok let's say cycle of 14 weeks... Which compound should be 6 weeks and 8 weeks? The Anavar or Winstrol?

[Family_guy]

100mg a day of oral steroids on a first run is a good way to punch your dick right into your liver.

I’d really like to know just how liver toxic oral steroids really are. I can’t imagine they’re as toxic as drinking a 12 pack a day or going to the bar every night and getting fucked up. Think about it. Both winny and anavar especially are pharmaceuticals right? I just have a hard time believing they are really that toxic.

Arnold ran huge amounts of dbol year round back in the day. I just think this whole “orals are so liver toxic you will fuck your self up on 100mg day” is total forum rhetoric without any basis in fact.

I could certainly be wrong but I haven’t seen anything to prove how “toxic” these drugs are when taken at reasonable doses for relatively short periods of time.

Even a drug like Retin A which millions of people have used requires you to get a liver test every 6 months. And it’s still a widely used pharmaceutical. Anyways that’s my rant.

[i_SLAM_cougars]

I’d really like to know just how liver toxic oral steroids really are. I can’t imagine they’re as toxic as drinking a 12 pack a day or going to the bar every night and getting fucked up. Think about it. Both winny and anavar especially are pharmaceuticals right? I just have a hard time believing they are really that toxic.

Arnold ran huge amounts of dbol year round back in the day. I just think this whole “orals are so liver toxic you will fuck your self up on 100mg day” is total forum rhetoric without any basis in fact.

I could certainly be wrong but I haven’t seen anything to prove how “toxic” these drugs are when taken at reasonable doses for relatively short periods of time.

Even a drug like Retin A which millions of people have used requires you to get a liver test every 6 months. And it’s still a widely used pharmaceutical. Anyways that’s my rant.

Stuff like Dymethyl tren, Methyl Tren, Halotestin, and some others are pretty nasty.

anavar could probably be taken indefinitely.
Dbol probably has the same toxicity as a light beer.

[Family_guy]

Stuff like Dymethyl tren, Methyl Tren, Halotestin, and some others are pretty nasty.

anavar could probably be taken indefinitely.
Dbol probably has the same toxicity as a light beer.

Agreed. Those drugs are really bad. Not something that anyone should really ever be using unless for a short period of time.

But anavar and even dbol can’t be that bad at all like you said probably like a beer

[Mula]

I’d really like to know just how liver toxic oral steroids really are. I can’t imagine they’re as toxic as drinking a 12 pack a day or going to the bar every night and getting fucked up. Think about it. Both winny and anavar especially are pharmaceuticals right? I just have a hard time believing they are really that toxic.

Arnold ran huge amounts of dbol year round back in the day. I just think this whole “orals are so liver toxic you will fuck your self up on 100mg day” is total forum rhetoric without any basis in fact.

I could certainly be wrong but I haven’t seen anything to prove how “toxic” these drugs are when taken at reasonable doses for relatively short periods of time.

Even a drug like Retin A which millions of people have used requires you to get a liver test every 6 months. And it’s still a widely used pharmaceutical. Anyways that’s my rant.

Where is gearheaded?

[Mula]

Stuff like Dymethyl tren, Methyl Tren, Halotestin, and some others are pretty nasty.

anavar could probably be taken indefinitely.
Dbol probably has the same toxicity as a light beer.

What about winstrol?

[Fiskevatten]

I gotta vote here as well going 1 or MAXIMUM 2 compounds as start.
Test P is my fav and like someone else said upstairs - you will grow as a weed on your first cycle with just a single com.

Pushing in several compounds will as said:
- Make you not know what does what and how you body respond
- Increase the risks
- Make it harder to adjust if said risk occurs
- Depending on what you take, increase time to reset (pct, time off)
etc etc...

This life choice CAN f*ck you up for life, even if not immediately. You got years to go 12 compounds if you want to, just start easy and adjust.

If that doesn't convince you, then know that everyone does not experience beast-mode on this even if everything is set as should.
Some people get moody, slow, dickless, tired, depressed, regretfull and even weaker. I've seen so many wanna go hardcore from day one and then they regret it
week 2, 6 or 8. It's usualy the same - "It hasn't happend yet, when does it kick in?" and shortly after "I have mood swings, low energy and my dick won't work, what can I do"?

To gain from this IMHO, you'll have to go several cycles if this is what you love, so you will have time feeling the water. Sooner or later you might have to
go TRT or similar, so that is something you will need to be prepared about as well and read on.

OH...also... I think many people here can honestly tell you that doing longer cycles (10 - 16 week) doesn't neccessarily mean you keep growing.
You can grow as f*ck until week 8 and then suddenly it tapers of and you'd gain more or less nothing for the remaining weeks.
Read more on longer cycles.

Less is more here, and it can also become more is less.
Start slow bro and best of luck!

[Mula]

Ok then my last question would be what would you guys rather recommend?

Test/Anavar or Test/Winstrol?

Probably going to run a 10 week test cycle so it will be either anavar or winstrol.

[Fiskevatten]

Ok then my last question would be what would you guys rather recommend?

Test/Anavar or Test/Winstrol?

Probably going to run a 10 week test cycle so it will be either anavar or winstrol.

My vote is on Test and Anavar here

[Mula]

What would PCT ideally look like for this cycle?

Week 1-10 Test-E (2x200mg per week)
Week 1-8 Anavar (50 to 60mg per day - 2x25mg or 3x20mg)
Week 1-10 HCG (2x500mg per week)

[JdFlex]

test/deca/dbol - greatest stack in history

[redz]

Slightly off topic here but there was mention of dymethyl Tren, this is not the same as methyl Tren? I’m interested lol, methyl Tren is already wild.

[DeeCee112]

Guys I think we all need to take a step back here. I've noticed a bit of a reckless environment lately on recommendations.

Personally on my first time cycle right now the temptation to add in other compounds was huge and I was very close. There are rules you can bend for sure, the length I've extended. I've played with my AI dosage in and out and learned alot from that, running HCG not from day one, I'm not gyno sensitive, but getting acne when I added hcg in and trying to figure that out. Mood swings and some anxiety are some things I've experienced. Learned alot about diet on Anabolics and how much you need to change it when on them. Training, everything changes.

Moral of my story is I've learned alot of valuable things about myself and the reason I have accurate feedback is because I've kept myself to less variables. I know exactly how my body handles testosterone. Anything I add from here on future cycles I will know more accurately it's effects and not have to question if it was the test.

If you are 27 you have PLENTY of time to run advanced compounds and protocols. If you are as good on your diet and training as you say you are I can promise the results from a standard test only cycle will make you quite happy. You'll learn alot from it, you'll learn how well you bounce back, your estrogen sensitivity, your mental changes.

I have to strongly disagree with the statement that you are already shutdown why not? I think all my above statements speak for why not. The only thing I would think about is dropping in a compound later in the cycle AFTER acclimatizing yourself with the test, hcg, AI whatever ancilliaries.

Play with your AI dosage, maybe your HCG, run the 500mg of test you can vary the length or even the dosage later in the cycle if you like. You'll learn how to inject properly, where to inject there is a mountain to learn and gain from testosterone and then you can start opening the gates.

This is my opinion and my experience, and noone will look after or invest in you more than yourself so make your decisions carefully and you'll succeed and stay in this game long term. There is no hardline right or wrong on most of these things, just what's best for you. Goodluck either way!

[DeeCee112]

Also I just reread your post and if you are hurting to the point of struggling to function like people around you due to lethargy, and soreness, as Windex previously suggested you should work on correcting that first. Ideally you want to be primed and ready for your cycle to maximize it not head into it handicapped.

Might need to reevaluate your nutrition and training, for sure get some base line bloodwork done to check for other issues or deficiencies that may be contributing before starting any kind of 1 or 5 compound cycle you may just make things worse. Maybe not during the cycle but afterwards.

Or again as Windex said maybe you need a deload period, I can relate with that when the weights start to feel heavy, energy is harder to come by and the body just needs a break from rigorous routines and then I come back ready for action again. You don't want to head into a cycle with your CNS already screaming.

[Test Monsterone]

Wise words, Deecee. This is a science experiment. In a science experiment we eliminate all but 1 variable to test our hypothesis/or our body's reaction in this case.

[Family_guy]

Guys I think we all need to take a step back here. I've noticed a bit of a reckless environment lately on recommendations.

Personally on my first time cycle right now the temptation to add in other compounds was huge and I was very close. There are rules you can bend for sure, the length I've extended. I've played with my AI dosage in and out and learned alot from that, running HCG not from day one, I'm not gyno sensitive, but getting acne when I added hcg in and trying to figure that out. Mood swings and some anxiety are some things I've experienced. Learned alot about diet on Anabolics and how much you need to change it when on them. Training, everything changes.

Moral of my story is I've learned alot of valuable things about myself and the reason I have accurate feedback is because I've kept myself to less variables. I know exactly how my body handles testosterone. Anything I add from here on future cycles I will know more accurately it's effects and not have to question if it was the test.

If you are 27 you have PLENTY of time to run advanced compounds and protocols. If you are as good on your diet and training as you say you are I can promise the results from a standard test only cycle will make you quite happy. You'll learn alot from it, you'll learn how well you bounce back, your estrogen sensitivity, your mental changes.

I have to strongly disagree with the statement that you are already shutdown why not? I think all my above statements speak for why not. The only thing I would think about is dropping in a compound later in the cycle AFTER acclimatizing yourself with the test, hcg, AI whatever ancilliaries.

Play with your AI dosage, maybe your HCG, run the 500mg of test you can vary the length or even the dosage later in the cycle if you like. You'll learn how to inject properly, where to inject there is a mountain to learn and gain from testosterone and then you can start opening the gates.

This is my opinion and my experience, and noone will look after or invest in you more than yourself so make your decisions carefully and you'll succeed and stay in this game long term. There is no hardline right or wrong on most of these things, just what's best for you. Goodluck either way!

Very well said DeeCee.

I don’t disagree with anything really. Like you said there’s really no right or wrong. Everyone’s different.

My only thing to add for consideration would be the fact that you can run multiple compounds in one cycle. By dropping one compound after experiencing it then adding another and so on. You can then isolate the variables by essentially running each compound separately but within the same cycle.

Hope that made sense. Anyways well said and I don’t disagree like I said

[Windex]

I would choose Anavar over Winny if it were me. However, I would ensure proper research to buy from well known reputable lab

[Family_guy]

I would choose Anavar over Winny if it were me. However, I would ensure proper research to buy from well known reputable lab

Why would you choose anavar over winny?

Would you always choose anavar over winny or just in this case?

[Test Monsterone]

Why would you choose anavar over winny?

Would you always choose anavar over winny or just in this case?

Winny is more hepatotoxic, presents more unwanted side effects, and shuts you down harder - so I hear.

[Hoss34]

Mula,

On average how much sleep do you get M-F?