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Thread: Aromatization

  1. #1
    HoldMyBeer is online now Productive Member
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    Aromatization

    Test converts to estrogen and dht correct?
    If so, does introducing an AI such as adex (if one wasn't being used before), lower dht?
    As GH has said before, estrogen in itself can be anabolic , and apparently the aromatization process itself releases igf (hence why an aromatizing compound can be more anabolic than just it's on paper rating), so letting the aromatization (spelling?) happen seems to be a good thing. It would be nice if there were more studies on this. There has to be a sweet spot where you don't lose all your hair and retain a shit load of water. I was thinking that if using high amounts of test, using a SERM may be better than an AI for those reasons, but I'm starting to think a combination of the two may be the answer.
    Thoughts?

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    It doesnít answer your question directly, but GH would have you mix in EQ with the test to minimize the aromatization that would require an AI.
    Letís say your sweet spot is 600 test and you want 1 g of test. You would take 400 EQ to make up the rest.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HoldMyBeer View Post
    Test converts to estrogen and dht correct?
    If so, does introducing an AI such as adex (if one wasn't being used before), lower dht?
    As GH has said before, estrogen in itself can be anabolic , and apparently the aromatization process itself releases igf (hence why an aromatizing compound can be more anabolic than just it's on paper rating), so letting the aromatization (spelling?) happen seems to be a good thing. It would be nice if there were more studies on this. There has to be a sweet spot where you don't lose all your hair and retain a shit load of water. I was thinking that if using high amounts of test, using a SERM may be better than an AI for those reasons, but I'm starting to think a combination of the two may be the answer.
    Thoughts?

    Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk
    I often wonder what you think several times. The practice to avoid AI at all using in stack other compounds which could lower aromatization in themselves, might have sense. However, i think that would be harder to control the sweet spot with other block-aromatization AAS compounds; a small AI dose would be better and easily integrable in your anti-estrogens stack, IMHO; considering the fact that each one could have a different sweet spot to manage and this could be detected just with experience on own body and adjusting anti-estrogens compounds in various manner and dosages ( there's no universal formula ). I don't think it needed estrogens to increase so much to get anabolic boosting properties; i think the double above max physiological range value, could be enough to getting anabolic properties and this could be the "universal" sweet spot for each one, regardless own base physiology.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker78 View Post
    I often wonder what you think several times. The practice to avoid AI at all using in stack other compounds which could lower aromatization in themselves, might have sense. However, i think that would be harder to control the sweet spot with other block-aromatization AAS compounds; a small AI dose would be better and easily integrable in your anti-estrogens stack, IMHO; considering the fact that each one could have a different sweet spot to manage and this could be detected just with experience on own body and adjusting anti-estrogens compounds in various manner and dosages ( there's no universal formula ). I don't think it needed estrogens to increase so much to get anabolic boosting properties; i think the double above max physiological range value, could be enough to getting anabolic properties and this could be the "universal" sweet spot for each one, regardless own base physiology.
    I have not used an AI in about 2 years. I just need to watch out that I donít break out crying. LOL


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    All in all keeping e2 in check... Sligthly above, is the best, adding all the pros and cons. I dont think low HDL from AIs is significant bad. The steroids fuck it up anyway.
    To me the emotional aspect is the most important. Too much e2 turns u into a metro, and why would u use anabolics if it makes u feel less of an alfa?
    When i enter the gym, i wanna feel it is my house. Not be the dude who says hello first to everybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoldMyBeer View Post
    Test converts to estrogen and dht correct?
    If so, does introducing an AI such as adex (if one wasn't being used before), lower dht?
    As GH has said before, estrogen in itself can be anabolic , and apparently the aromatization process itself releases igf (hence why an aromatizing compound can be more anabolic than just it's on paper rating), so letting the aromatization (spelling?) happen seems to be a good thing. It would be nice if there were more studies on this. There has to be a sweet spot where you don't lose all your hair and retain a shit load of water. I was thinking that if using high amounts of test, using a SERM may be better than an AI for those reasons, but I'm starting to think a combination of the two may be the answer.
    Thoughts?

    Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk

    No. Adding in an AI and reducing the conversion of T to E will increase T levels and thus DHT levels. T turns to E everywhere in the body except skeletal muscle. Well, a small amount makes it into the muscle but it's basically destroyed by another enzyme related to 5-AR. There's nothing wrong with running low dose nolva and low dose adex at the same time if symptomatic. I do it all the time. We are all different and it takes time to learn exactly what you need and how you respond.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    No. Adding in an AI and reducing the conversion of T to E will increase T levels and thus DHT levels. T turns to E everywhere in the body except skeletal muscle. Well, a small amount makes it into the muscle but it's basically destroyed by another enzyme related to 5-AR. There's nothing wrong with running low dose nolva and low dose adex at the same time if symptomatic. I do it all the time. We are all different and it takes time to learn exactly what you need and how you respond.
    Are you saying that estrogen is not anabolic ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    I have not used an AI in about 2 years. I just need to watch out that I don’t break out crying. LOL


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    Crying is the less trouble look at your tits instead
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    No. Adding in an AI and reducing the conversion of T to E will increase T levels and thus DHT levels. T turns to E everywhere in the body except skeletal muscle. Well, a small amount makes it into the muscle but it's basically destroyed by another enzyme related to 5-AR. There's nothing wrong with running low dose nolva and low dose adex at the same time if symptomatic. I do it all the time. We are all different and it takes time to learn exactly what you need and how you respond.
    That's the smarter way, finding a compromise between a SERM and AI to getting more benefits with less sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    Are you saying that estrogen is not anabolic ?


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    Not at all. The op is looking for a compromise and for those that are symptomatic running a low dose of AI alongside nolva may be what he needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Not at all. The op is looking for a compromise and for those that are symptomatic running a low dose of AI alongside nolva may be what he needs.
    Not symptomatic, you're response was educational none the less
    More curious if pushing aromatization as far as possible without going full emo would maximize growth
    I tried just SERM before, got ED after a couple months, immediately popped adex and it cleared up within a couple days.
    But there has to be a sweet spot to maximize the amount of igf release, anabolic effects of e2, and testosterone without it getting that far. I would like to know what it is

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  12. #12
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    awesome topic Holdmybeer

    heres some of my off the cuff thoughts. too burnt out and lazy to provide much reference or research right now, but I've got notes I can go back to refer to.

    - Unless you 'HAVE TO' take an AI , your better off not. and really, in most cases there is rarely a reason to ever have to because you can simply set you cycles up in a way to not ever need an AI. as Charger explained in post 2 for example. also being 85% of AAS available to us don't even convert to estrogen in the first place. so just set your cycles up in ways and dosages that you never need an AI.
    - so some "have to" cases, even though rare and still can be mitigated. a contest bodybuilder coming into a show need to purposely crash his estrogen because he's one of few guys that hold estrogenic water retention even when estrogen is in check.. or someone who is so so estrogen sensitive on even lower doses of test that they need to keep estrogen in low normal range.

    now some guys simply chose to go ahead and not mess with things or 'get fancy' and they just run a low dose of an AI and keep estrogen in lower normal ranges for their TRT or their cycles. thats a personal choice.

    but some more thoughts..
    - AI's have health consequences that are directly related to the use of the drug itself , and not related to the lowering of blood serum levels of estrogen. these need to be explored further and more research is coming out. one effect being talked about is how they effect your brain chemistry.

    - SERMs like nolva on the other hand don't seem to have near the negative side effects and are considered safer.

    SERMs will NOT lower your blood serum levels of estrogen. Nolva is itself an "estrogen" and will bind to estrogen receptors in the breast tissue for example, but not illicit any of the negative feminizing effects and block the stronger estradiol from binding.

    lowering your blood serum levels of estrogen is not always a good thing. your brain has estrogen receptors. you need estrogen to function both mentally as well as libido . its NOT testosterone that controls your libido, its estrogen. your vascular system, skeletal system and muscle all have estrogen receptors as well ... heck one main reason you have balls to produce testosterone is so your body can convert/aromatize it and make estrogen. . so lowering your blood serum by "un-naturally'' blocking the aromatization process may not be the best thing for your well being.

    estrogen plays a huge role in brain function .. the reason guys get mentally whacked on high doses of Tren while taking AI's ?? because they have no estrogen for the brain and only high high doses of androgens (tren is super androgenic ). this high androgen, low estrogen brain chemistry is going to cause a lot of the side effects that you hear about with Tren.. anger, short fuse, thoughts of murder, crazy dreams, insomnia, etc. etc..
    you NEED the estrogen when your androgens are that high to counter out the brain chemistry from all the androgens. you'll go crazy otherwise

    I could go on, now I'm just rambling though

  13. #13
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    oh one more thought here.. guys that run their first "test only" cycles (which I'm not a fan of) and decide to run a moderate dose of an AI with it and start that from day one , and 3 weeks in they are having all these terrible side effects. its because of the AI , and NOT the test.
    test at first cycle dosages, 300-500, rarely if ever should cause many negative side effects and 3 weeks in should feel great. and not be a mental mess. its the AI causing all the libido and mental issues.

    now. take the first cycle guy and have him start his test only cycle and it in a low dose of a SERM like Nolva with it, just as an insurance policy to prevent gyno, and he will rarely if ever have a negative side effects.

    this point shows that AI's can carry a bunch of negative sides compared to Nolva
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    awesome topic Holdmybeer

    heres some of my off the cuff thoughts. too burnt out and lazy to provide much reference or research right now, but I've got notes I can go back to refer to.

    - Unless you 'HAVE TO' take an AI , your better off not. and really, in most cases there is rarely a reason to ever have to because you can simply set you cycles up in a way to not ever need an AI. as Charger explained in post 2 for example. also being 85% of AAS available to us don't even convert to estrogen in the first place. so just set your cycles up in ways and dosages that you never need an AI.
    - so some "have to" cases, even though rare and still can be mitigated. a contest bodybuilder coming into a show need to purposely crash his estrogen because he's one of few guys that hold estrogenic water retention even when estrogen is in check.. or someone who is so so estrogen sensitive on even lower doses of test that they need to keep estrogen in low normal range.

    now some guys simply chose to go ahead and not mess with things or 'get fancy' and they just run a low dose of an AI and keep estrogen in lower normal ranges for their TRT or their cycles. thats a personal choice.

    but some more thoughts..
    - AI's have health consequences that are directly related to the use of the drug itself , and not related to the lowering of blood serum levels of estrogen. these need to be explored further and more research is coming out. one effect being talked about is how they effect your brain chemistry.

    - SERMs like nolva on the other hand don't seem to have near the negative side effects and are considered safer.

    SERMs will NOT lower your blood serum levels of estrogen. Nolva is itself an "estrogen" and will bind to estrogen receptors in the breast tissue for example, but not illicit any of the negative feminizing effects and block the stronger estradiol from binding.

    lowering your blood serum levels of estrogen is not always a good thing. your brain has estrogen receptors. you need estrogen to function both mentally as well as libido . its NOT testosterone that controls your libido, its estrogen. your vascular system, skeletal system and muscle all have estrogen receptors as well ... heck one main reason you have balls to produce testosterone is so your body can convert/aromatize it and make estrogen. . so lowering your blood serum by "un-naturally'' blocking the aromatization process may not be the best thing for your well being.

    estrogen plays a huge role in brain function .. the reason guys get mentally whacked on high doses of Tren while taking AI's ?? because they have no estrogen for the brain and only high high doses of androgens (tren is super androgenic ). this high androgen, low estrogen brain chemistry is going to cause a lot of the side effects that you hear about with Tren.. anger, short fuse, thoughts of murder, crazy dreams, insomnia, etc. etc..
    you NEED the estrogen when your androgens are that high to counter out the brain chemistry from all the androgens. you'll go crazy otherwise

    I could go on, now I'm just rambling though
    Great GH. But does Nolva act like an estrogen creating the same estrogens effects ( opposite to what we want ) in long term use ? I read something it about time ago....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker78 View Post
    Great GH. But does Nolva act like an estrogen creating the same estrogens effects ( opposite to what we want ) in long term use ? I read something it about time ago....
    there are something like 15 different types of estrogen.. Nolva is a strong binding estrogen , but is "selective" (hence being a SERM) in its action and receptor binding.. so for example it has a strong binding affinity to bind to receptors in breast tissue, BUT it also does not promote any of the effects on that tissue that something like E2 would have on the same receptor. E2 then competes for this breast tissue receptor but can't bind cause the Nolva is bound, but the E2 is still free and able to bind to more important tissues like those in the brain and vascular system to illicit their positive benefits.

    the only long term issue that I'm aware of with Nolva, at higher doses, is its lowering of hepatic IGF output. but this is not an issue for steroid users, as the use of AAS and other growth factors that greatly increase IGF more then makes up for this small lowering effect. plus muscle cells have the ability to produce IGF on their own without the need from hepatic IGF.

    but either way.. I would not set you cycles up or your TRT up in such a way that you would need to be on a SERM long term anyways.

    personally, I've ran 2000mg of test per week with no AI and no SERM .. but I'm one of the lucky ones that have no issues with gyno. as gyno is genetic and guys that get it can get it wither they use an AI or not, and some guys like me seem to have no estrogen receptors in breast tissue to begin with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    there are something like 15 different types of estrogen.. Nolva is a strong binding estrogen , but is "selective" (hence being a SERM) in its action and receptor binding.. so for example it has a strong binding affinity to bind to receptors in breast tissue, BUT it also does not promote any of the effects on that tissue that something like E2 would have on the same receptor. E2 then competes for this breast tissue receptor but can't bind cause the Nolva is bound, but the E2 is still free and able to bind to more important tissues like those in the brain and vascular system to illicit their positive benefits.

    the only long term issue that I'm aware of with Nolva, at higher doses, is its lowering of hepatic IGF output. but this is not an issue for steroid users, as the use of AAS and other growth factors that greatly increase IGF more then makes up for this small lowering effect. plus muscle cells have the ability to produce IGF on their own without the need from hepatic IGF.

    but either way.. I would not set you cycles up or your TRT up in such a way that you would need to be on a SERM long term anyways.

    personally, I've ran 2000mg of test per week with no AI and no SERM .. but I'm one of the lucky ones that have no issues with gyno. as gyno is genetic and guys that get it can get it wither they use an AI or not, and some guys like me seem to have no estrogen receptors in breast tissue to begin with.
    Clear. I suppose it could be a good practice use Nolva during a cycle and switch to AI when returning in TRT if estrogens would be a problem even on TRT course. I would prefer Nolva administration while on cycle in absolute sense, given the facts.

    It's not a coincidence if when i left my estrogens increase, my muscle mass gains were very remarkable; and it's not a coincidence neither, if Dbol is a king of muscle mass gains.

    I wondering if even under Nolva, over the Gyno, we could experiment the others high estrogens effect, being just a specific kind of receptors we block while others remain free to bind.... i think this could be bound to the subject of the topic related to what asked HoldMyBeer... for these reasons i think he suspected a moderate synergic action of AI... no Gyno ok... but high estrogens = all other typical sides as well as other receptors sites are free to be bound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker78 View Post
    Clear. I suppose it could be a good practice use Nolva during a cycle and switch to AI when returning in TRT if estrogens would be a problem even on TRT course. I would prefer Nolva administration while on cycle in absolute sense, given the facts.

    It's not a coincidence if when i left my estrogens increase, my muscle mass gains were very remarkable; and it's not a coincidence neither, if Dbol is a king of muscle mass gains.

    I wondering if even under Nolva, over the Gyno, we could experiment the others high estrogens effect, being just a specific kind of receptors we block while others remain free to bind.... i think this could be bound to the subject of the topic related to what asked HoldMyBeer... for these reasons i think he suspected a moderate synergic action of AI... no Gyno ok... but high estrogens = all other typical sides as well as other receptors sites are free to be bound.
    Dbol - king of muscle mass gains? Can you explain?


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    Quote Originally Posted by AR's King Silabolin View Post
    All in all keeping e2 in check... Sligthly above, is the best, adding all the pros and cons. I dont think low HDL from AIs is significant bad. The steroids fuck it up anyway.
    To me the emotional aspect is the most important. Too much e2 turns u into a metro, and why would u use anabolics if it makes u feel less of an alfa?
    When i enter the gym, i wanna feel it is my house. Not be the dude who says hello first to everybody.

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    Lmao! Sil! That’s funny. I have gotten emotional from high E I’m sure. But I’m not a metro when it’s too high!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    Lmao! Sil! That’s funny. I have gotten emotional from high E I’m sure. But I’m not a metro when it’s too high!
    imo, getting emotional from high E is not really a 'negative side effect' . not really a side effect at all I don't think.. in fact most guys that do get emotional when there E is high, also get emotional when they are off cycle as well .. its just when on cycle they have a built in excuse for getting emotional , "oh my E levels are high" ..

    I'd like to see a study and some real anecdotal evidence that elevated E levels, when on cycle and androgen levels are through the roof, actually make anyone more emotional at all .
    my E has been in the upper 200s. I'm no more emotional then when off cycle .. in fact I was the most emotional years ago when I went off all AAS (including TRT) and had low low test (no test essentially) and no estrogen.
    high estrogen with high androgens makes me feel the most "alpha" (whatever that means). high androgen low estrogen makes me feel like an angry asshole that hates the world.

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    It’s nice to have you back Gear!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    imo, getting emotional from high E is not really a 'negative side effect' . not really a side effect at all I don't think.. in fact most guys that do get emotional when there E is high, also get emotional when they are off cycle as well .. its just when on cycle they have a built in excuse for getting emotional , "oh my E levels are high" ..

    I'd like to see a study and some real anecdotal evidence that elevated E levels, when on cycle and androgen levels are through the roof, actually make anyone more emotional at all .
    my E has been in the upper 200s. I'm no more emotional then when off cycle .. in fact I was the most emotional years ago when I went off all AAS (including TRT) and had low low test (no test essentially) and no estrogen.
    high estrogen with high androgens makes me feel the most "alpha" (whatever that means). high androgen low estrogen makes me feel like an angry asshole that hates the world.
    That’s quite possible. No man wants to admit that he cried watching the lion king. “It’s my estrogen that’s all!”
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    imo, getting emotional from high E is not really a 'negative side effect' . not really a side effect at all I don't think.. in fact most guys that do get emotional when there E is high, also get emotional when they are off cycle as well .. its just when on cycle they have a built in excuse for getting emotional , "oh my E levels are high" ..

    I'd like to see a study and some real anecdotal evidence that elevated E levels, when on cycle and androgen levels are through the roof, actually make anyone more emotional at all .
    my E has been in the upper 200s. I'm no more emotional then when off cycle .. in fact I was the most emotional years ago when I went off all AAS (including TRT) and had low low test (no test essentially) and no estrogen.
    high estrogen with high androgens makes me feel the most "alpha" (whatever that means). high androgen low estrogen makes me feel like an angry asshole that hates the world.
    I hate the world even with high estrogens the only difference than low E is that i love my woman more
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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    Dbol - king of muscle mass gains? Can you explain?


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    Dbol converts in methyl estradiol that is four times powerful than estradiol. You can guess the rest, staying to what we discussed here.
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