Is it backwards?

[HoldMyBeer]

The more I hear about bodybuilders that compete (at state level at least), it seems like in the off season (calorie surplus) they just cruise 400-500 test, and only ramp up the gear during their contest prep (calorie deficit)
Most people on the forums seem to save the blasts for the bulk, and cut during a cruise
Why do you think that is?

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[The Deadlifting Dog]

they need to cut to such an extreme low bodyfat without losing muscle... therefore they need a shit ton of gear
meanwhile cruising on 400-500 test is actually a small cycle which is enough to bulk on when eating in surplus

[GearHeaded]

deadlifting dog is right on the money.. for a serious competitive bodybuilder the "chemical warfare" (ie extreme and complicated amounts of gear) are saved for the contest prep phase when your going into a calorie deficit in need to spare as much muscle as possible (actually with right protocols you can put muscle on) and get as lean and dry yet as 'full' looking as possible all at the same time. this takes more advanced drug usage to accomplish.
in the off season the high amounts of FOOD is the main anabolic stimulus and you don't need a ton of gear to grow.

theres plenty of 'big' natural guys that get up to 250 pounds and pretty strong (yet fat at the same time).. however when a natty guys tries to get in contest shape he is no longer going to be big. he will loose a ton of muscle in the process. your average natural Pro bodybuilder (yes pro) steps on stage at 150 pounds.. where your average IFBB drug using pro steps on stage at 250 pounds +. the drugs make that 100 pound difference.

[Slacker78]

I'm do not compete and i do almost the same; I cruise on 350-400mg of test and jump in cycle when cut, adding others compounds; sometimes in bulk i add a small amount of dbol for a brief period ( 2-3 weeks ) at 20mg/ED to give a little boost.

Cutting is a delicate process, the more aggressive is your deficit so more anabolics you have to use to save your muscle mass; i did a cut time ago with 250mg of test E and i loose ton of muscles; I didn't know well what i did but later i realized that getting up muscles in a severe deficit is a challenge which is beyond 250mg of Test. So, this seems to have sense.

[GearHeaded]

I will add this though.. for a lot of 'hard gainer' gym rats that don't have the genetics for competitive bodybuilding and struggle to put on muscle,, these guys often find themselves in a permanent bulk situation and the food is really never enough and they do need to do more advanced cycles when bulking as well as add in additional growth factors.. and when they do cut its generally short lived and not very extreme like a bodybuilder contest prep would be.

[DeeCee112]

I will add this though.. for a lot of 'hard gainer' gym rats that don't have the genetics for competitive bodybuilding and struggle to put on muscle,, these guys often find themselves in a permanent bulk situation and the food is really never enough and they do need to do more advanced cycles when bulking as well as add in additional growth factors.. and when they do cut its generally short lived and not very extreme like a bodybuilder contest prep would be.

I've been bulking for 12years straight haha
Seriously a couple weeks of calorie deficit and fat disappears off me. To gain I need to eat until I'm sick all day everyday. Mind you I've never been really shredded though because I've never gotten size wise to where I want to be in order to risk losing any in a real hard cut.

[99JT]

I've been bulking for 12years straight haha
Seriously a couple weeks of calorie deficit and fat disappears off me. To gain I need to eat until I'm sick all day everyday. Mind you I've never been really shredded though because I've never gotten size wise to where I want to be in order to risk losing any in a real hard cut.

Same here bulk @4000++ calories then a few weeks at 3500 and repeat.

[charger69]

I am far from an expert however I do have experience from the school of Hard Knox. My bulking have been simple cycles. The cutting gets complex and you are pushing the limits on your body. Actually, last contest prep put me in the ER because I tried pushing my body further than it was willing to go.


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[Slacker78]

I've been bulking for 12years straight haha
Seriously a couple weeks of calorie deficit and fat disappears off me. To gain I need to eat until I'm sick all day everyday. Mind you I've never been really shredded though because I've never gotten size wise to where I want to be in order to risk losing any in a real hard cut.

Yes, it's the same for me. For me it's easier weight loss than weight gain; i removed T3 in my bulking stack because even 25mcg/ED seems to burn a little of muscle mass and give a flat look as it's well-known.. i was thinking to switch to 20mcg/ED but for the moment i removed it.

[Couchlockd]

I've been bulking for 12years straight haha
Seriously a couple weeks of calorie deficit and fat disappears off me. To gain I need to eat until I'm sick all day everyday. Mind you I've never been really shredded though because I've never gotten size wise to where I want to be in order to risk losing any in a real hard cut.

Same here, 1 week in deficit I can drop lots of body fat

It's the gaining mass that's hard.

Gaining strength for me is easy, very easy I just wish I looked as strong as I am.

[GearHeaded]

Yes, it's the same for me. For me it's easier weight loss than weight gain; i removed T3 in my bulking stack because even 25mcg/ED seems to burn a little of muscle mass and give a flat look as it's well-known.. i was thinking to switch to 20mcg/ED but for the moment i removed it.

try switching to T4 instead of T3 while bulking.. just a moderate dose like 50-75mcg. T4 as inactive thyroid hormone needs to be converted to T3 by the liver. whereas T3 is active thyroid and if your take 25mcg thats what your body is going to get no matter if it needs that much or not.. the T4 will give your body plenty of the inactive thyroid so it has a plentiful supply to convert it to T3 as it needs. you won't burn muscle.. in fact, the conversion process of T4 to T3 leaves behind an enzyme (can't remember the name) that has been said to have anabolic properties. this enzyme is even more greatly enhanced when HGH is present. Clenbuterol also has an effect on this same enzyme (or the enzyme effects the clenbuterol, I can't remember which is which).
stacking T4 with HGH, insulin , and Clen (just very low dose, not a fat burning dose) is super synergetic and enhances this anabolic enzyme and provides a great deal of nutrient absorption (the reason your taking T4 or T3 on a bulk anyhow) and anabolism.

not going to lose muscle running T4 in this way , as opposed to running T3 on its own

[Slacker78]

try switching to T4 instead of T3 while bulking.. just a moderate dose like 50-75mcg. T4 as inactive thyroid hormone needs to be converted to T3 by the liver. whereas T3 is active thyroid and if your take 25mcg thats what your body is going to get no matter if it needs that much or not.. the T4 will give your body plenty of the inactive thyroid so it has a plentiful supply to convert it to T3 as it needs. you won't burn muscle.. in fact, the conversion process of T4 to T3 leaves behind an enzyme (can't remember the name) that has been said to have anabolic properties. this enzyme is even more greatly enhanced when HGH is present. Clenbuterol also has an effect on this same enzyme (or the enzyme effects the clenbuterol, I can't remember which is which).
stacking T4 with HGH, insulin , and Clen (just very low dose, not a fat burning dose) is super synergetic and enhances this anabolic enzyme and provides a great deal of nutrient absorption (the reason your taking T4 or T3 on a bulk anyhow) and anabolism.

not going to lose muscle running T4 in this way , as opposed to running T3 on its own

Yes, good idea, thank you. What i think is that my cortisol levels are prone to raise up very intense and quickly; this is the matter why for me is easy to burn a lot of muscle mass. I remember when i took T3 50mcg/ED.. in a few days my hungry was awful and my muscles was so flat that i looked as a non body builder... but my abdominals in 7 days became very quartered; although 300-400mg Test E this wasn't enough to preserve muscle mass and muscles glycogen. It was very unmanageable, mainly due to excessive hungry... i devoured all what i found in my kitchen and nothing seemed to stop my hungry.

A question: a moderate dose of Dbol EOD ( 20mg ) as pre-pump in long term, could be dangerous in general sense ? Could it be used in more long time in this way, just excluding week-end days ? It would 10-20mg 3-4 times at week.. ?

[GearHeaded]

Yes, good idea, thank you. What i think is that my cortisol levels are prone to raise up very intense and quickly; this is the matter why for me is easy to burn a lot of muscle mass. I remember when i took T3 50mcg/ED.. in a few days my hungry was awful and my muscles was so flat that i looked as a non body builder... but my abdominals in 7 days became very quartered; although 300-400mg Test E this wasn't enough to preserve muscle mass and muscles glycogen. It was very unmanageable, mainly due to excessive hungry... i devoured all what i found in my kitchen and nothing seemed to stop my hungry.

A question: a moderate dose of Dbol EOD ( 20mg ) as pre-pump in long term, could be dangerous in general sense ? Could it be used in more long time in this way, just excluding week-end days ? It would 10-20mg 3-4 times at week.. ?

in bold -- most guys I help with contest prep are running T3 during the prep. but a week out from the show I tell them to pull it. they always ask why.. well whats in bold is why. we need to fill out and glycogen load going into the show. you can't glycogen load if your stuck in a calorie deficit due to the T3 revving your metabolism so fast .. we need to pull the T3 and up your calories and THEN you can glycogen load..


regarding low dose Dbol .. absolutely a good idea for a non competitor to use when running T3 when cutting.
reason why?

heres one reason.. women clients of mine who are cutting and running T3 at 50mcg per day never seem to go flat or lose an ounce of muscle, in fact they look great.. men doing that exact same thing though end up sometimes looking stringy and flat and afraid they are losing some muscle.
So why is that, whats the difference ?

Estrogen.. women have much higher levels of Estrogen and estrogen I believe to be anti catabolic and it also aides in helping the body store water and glycogen (which makes your muscle look full).
how do I know that estrogen helps load glycogen.. contest prep. anytime a guy runs a shit ton of AIs trying to crash his estrogen in an attempt to look super dry for the show he always has a hard time loading up carbs and get full. he comes in flat.

yes Dbol not a bad idea to run with T3 even on a cut.. as for how long you can run Dbol for at 20mg per day. don't know. I've used it for years as a pre workout at that dosage. everyone is different. liver toxicity for most is equal to a couple beers per day, but for someone it could lead to some high liver values.

[Slacker78]

in bold -- most guys I help with contest prep are running T3 during the prep. but a week out from the show I tell them to pull it. they always ask why.. well whats in bold is why. we need to fill out and glycogen load going into the show. you can't glycogen load if your stuck in a calorie deficit due to the T3 revving your metabolism so fast .. we need to pull the T3 and up your calories and THEN you can glycogen load..


regarding low dose Dbol .. absolutely a good idea for a non competitor to use when running T3 when cutting.
reason why?

heres one reason.. women clients of mine who are cutting and running T3 at 50mcg per day never seem to go flat or lose an ounce of muscle, in fact they look great.. men doing that exact same thing though end up sometimes looking stringy and flat and afraid they are losing some muscle.
So why is that, whats the difference ?

Estrogen.. women have much higher levels of Estrogen and estrogen I believe to be anti catabolic and it also aides in helping the body store water and glycogen (which makes your muscle look full).
how do I know that estrogen helps load glycogen.. contest prep. anytime a guy runs a shit ton of AIs trying to crash his estrogen in an attempt to look super dry for the show he always has a hard time loading up carbs and get full. he comes in flat.

yes Dbol not a bad idea to run with T3 even on a cut.. as for how long you can run Dbol for at 20mg per day. don't know. I've used it for years as a pre workout at that dosage. everyone is different. liver toxicity for most is equal to a couple beers per day, but for someone it could lead to some high liver values.

Great info. If it's not a problem i will send you a private msg for a consulting regarding my girlfriend who is in crisis cause she is subject to retain a lot of water easily and when she is in low carb, after a little the weight loss stopping and nothing seems to be able to move it down further. I followed some of your advices time ago, and at beginning all went good... but being she has just one kidney since birth, our suspect is that she is subject to retain more sodium and excrete more potassium. Of course i don't want a free consulting

[fiddlesticks]

it's absolutely mental how difficult maintaining tons of muscle at a low bodyfat is, it's very stressful on the body as a whole and metric fucktons of chemicals are required. ironically being 30-50lbs heavier with fat and water in the offseason is MUCH less stressful and requires very little chemicals to maintain really. in my own experience at 6'4 I had no issue holding 300lbs at prob 16% with just TRT and peptides but if I tried losing fat even at a reasonable pace I shrunk very hard no matter how I trained or ate and didn't really desire taking a ton of heavy androgens to lose more fat.

gaining muscle mass and size tends to be incredibly simple it's holding onto it while dieting that's basically a pipe dream. most people would be very surprised to see how simple this actually is, your stomach generates a very substantial amount of heat/pressure that is required to maintain circulation which is incredibly important for muscle size and the more you eat the more pressure and heat is made. the body will usually just downsize the muscles and circulation when you lose weight and you are basically attempting to keep them functioning during the diet with training. since people are so terrified of their stomachs being "big" they make this process very, very, very hard. The whole idea of fasted training because theres 'less blood in the stomach" really doesn't ever work mainly because of this system. you can't create the required circulation to the limbs. not to mention stomach fat is mainly stored in times of cold / lower heat production so you actually will get leaner alot of times when you eat lots of calories.

think of how silly the body would be to have a huge metabolic rate and next to no energy reserves WHILE expending tons of energy every day training. yea no

not saying it's 100% true or even mandatory (maybe it is) but ronnie coleman was supposedly up to 36 iu of GH at his peak contest showtime,
this is not remotely smart or sustainable

[Kyle1337]

I've been bulking for 12years straight haha
Seriously a couple weeks of calorie deficit and fat disappears off me. To gain I need to eat until I'm sick all day everyday. Mind you I've never been really shredded though because I've never gotten size wise to where I want to be in order to risk losing any in a real hard cut.

A quality cut can help big time. I bulked for 5 years. I eventually just gave up because I would never get to where I want... I cut to pretty low extremes, nearly #30 pounds off, I was around 6-8% BF and when I re-comped the following 6 months my entire body structure has changed DRASTICALLY. I do not look the same. I am much more structured than I ever was at the same weights I worked so hard to achieve. A proper cut can do great things IMO. I also 'permanently' lost body fat in certain areas. I never once had a shoulder striation at any of the 80# I gained in the years bulking, but soon as I cut and regained back to my peak I still maintained shoulder striations.

[Family_guy]

A quality cut can help big time. I bulked for 5 years. I eventually just gave up because I would never get to where I want... I cut to pretty low extremes, nearly #30 pounds off, I was around 6-8% BF and when I re-comped the following 6 months my entire body structure has changed DRASTICALLY. I do not look the same. I am much more structured than I ever was at the same weights I worked so hard to achieve. A proper cut can do great things IMO. I also 'permanently' lost body fat in certain areas. I never once had a shoulder striation at any of the 80# I gained in the years bulking, but soon as I cut and regained back to my peak I still maintained shoulder striations.

That’s interesting. I’ve heard that it’s the intramuscular fat that goes away eventually from either dieting or training for so long. Once that fat is gone the striations come out so much easier.

Not saying it’s true cuz I have no idea. I think Seth feroce was the one I heard that from