Printable View
Was wondering if being on TRT (seeing as there is already exogenous testosterone in your system) and blasting with another long ester test, would the cycle effects come on faster? Instead of the normal week 5-8.
I remember reading a post way back that a member had made a chart, showing testosterone saturation levels by the week while on cycle. The debate was over front loading vs not.. thought this might some what have the same concept.
So you would already have a base level w the trt
On the other hand, I don't think your natural production completely shuts down immediately anyways
I would think it's a wash, or the difference is negligible
The difference is really on the other end whether or not you have to pct
As far as front loading, if your levels (for example) are 2500 vs taking a few weeks to build up to 3k... If had 2 people who one always front loaded, and the other didn't, I doubt you would see a difference in physique 10 years later
Sent from my LG-LS993 using Tapatalk
If you’re already running a long ester, i.e. cyp or enth and have your levels already elevated going into blast mode, it makes sense that you would hit supraphysiologic levels faster versus someone with a much lower baseline. Which is what I think you’re asking? You would already be partly front loaded, you would have a higher trough going inQuote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
From my experience, and in my opinion, there is no difference.
If you are natty and producing 800 ng/dL of testosterone, or if you are on TRT and are around the same level, you’re body doesn’t know the difference. The advantage to TRT is that when you add additional testosterone, that TRT level you had before hand will still be maintained, whereas your natural production will slowly drop to 0. So, theoretically, it would take a little more testosterone if you were cycling and not on TRT to match someone who is on TRT and adds the same dose of exogenous test. However there is also the theory that someone not on TRT will respond better to the exogenous hormone. At the end of the day I don’t think it makes a difference.
Yes! Exactly what I’m trying to figure out. Bloodwork with my doctor is every 12 weeks. Trying to find out if I was to blast on a long ester if it would be a waste or not.. by the time (in a normal test cycle) it was ramping up, I’d have to cut it out to get back down to my TRT levels. At least in my experience. 500mg/week pre TRT, it wasn’t until week 6 or 7 when I really was like oh fuck. Strength and appearance would be in full swingQuote:
Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah
I should’ve put my blood work schedule in the first post, might’ve helped more with yalls replies..
Basically prop vs cyp. I know the prop will obviously kick in A LOT quicker, but if I stay with my E3.5D pins and not be a complete waste that would be preferable. EOD out at work becomes more of a hassle with my schedule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
In my opinion you’ll get there quicker, because I’ve done it and felt the effects much faster than when not on TRT...anecdotal of course. Your problem is 12 weeks is way too close and you have to return to baseline in time for your labs to read in the normal range. Know you don’t want to, but prop is going to be your best bet but it’s also a bit of a gamble titrating back to the long ester and falling in normal ranges. Did you just recently start TRT? 12 week labs are really close. If so, maybe wait until you clear the 12 week call backs and see if he moves you to 12 months (my doc started me identically but then after 3 checkups switched me to yearly). Not worth it to piss him off and have him stop your care. Could also just run a different compound (tren/Deca) and keep your test at TRT doses. Just a thought
No actually it’s been over a year! Lol I go in this month and I’m gonna ask him about changing it to every 6 months. Ive been researching for the past few nights. EQ, mast, deca and tren. One of the above thrown in with TRT. Trying to determine which seems to be the most beneficial with keeping my blood work from being too thrown off.. he checks the normal TT, FT, e2, WBC, RBC, Hemo and Hema.Quote:
Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
Man, he’s on it huh? Seems like overkill but whatever. 6 months seems reasonable to say the least.
I can tell you I’ve run tren while on TRT and had labs pulled during my yearly (bad timing on my part). My doc checks all the same things (extremely comprehensive) and the only thing he stated was my cholesterol levels were off and my BP was elevated...I was able to brush it off as work stress. He was cool with it but recommended some lifestyle modifications which I gladly accepted ;)
Not saying it’ll be the same for you with regards to your labs or your docs understanding but thought it was worth sharing. Manipulating your test levels with checkups every 3 months is going to be tough (maybe some other guys can chime in with that schedule. Would suggest keeping test levels the same and let another compound do the heavy lifting while not throwing off your values. Good luck!
Prop is a waste if you can't pin every day in my opinion. Even pinning prop every other day still causes peaks/valleys and doesn't produce stable levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
You can't use deca if your getting Test levels checked because Deca will inflate them (talking like 3000ng with only 150mg of Deca).
Depending on how they do the E2 calculation, the Tren will skyrocket E2. They may even do a double take on your gender.
EQ will elevate all your blood levels.
Masteron and Primobolan would be safe.
This is all assuming you don't get changed to a 6 month bloodwork schedule.
I haven’t done much research on primo, I’ll have to look in to it. A lot of what I’ve read has pointed me towards mast, just unsure if I have low enough body fat? Everyone seems to say 10%~ is the real sweet spot to really notice the aesthetic side of it. I’ve never had it checked before.. I’ll see if I can’t find a photo of where I’m at rn. Maybe someone can give me a ballpark guessQuote:
Originally Posted by Windex
You’re lean as shit bud, nice work. I’d say you’re close to the 10% range. I’m running Mast P (400 a week) for the first time and am noticing some hardness for sure, not sure I’m blown away yet though. Only at week 3 with it and also have it alongside tren at 400. First time with Mast for me. If you decide to go that way, body fat isn’t going to be an issue for youQuote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
That’s genetic leanness right there. No diet required.
your going to be better off just leaving your TRT dialed in where its at, and if you decide to run a cycle simply add an anabolic steroid to your TRT. don't matter wither its a short ester, long ester, or an oral. things like Primo, Var, Eq, etc. are not going to effect your test levels or blood work too much.
Yes it is lol. Naturally lean af, which is a blessing and a curse. Summer time is great, I can be super lenient with my diet and still look half ass decent. Bulk season is the hardest. I miss one of my planned meals for the day and I’ll drop 5lbs lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Test Monsterone
YI feel like a fucking groupie rn. I’ve been hopeful you would chime in.. searching over the forum the past two weeks, I’ve been coming across your replies to posts and they’re always knowledgeable to say the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
So you think as long as I add an anabolic compound, versus a more androgenic I shouldn’t raise any flags?
you can always attempt to time your cycles around when your TRT doc requires blood work.. but yeah if you run non estrogenic anabolics added to your current TRT protocol you'll have much less effects on blood work. plus Anabolics work great added to TRT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
heres some info
- Deca or Tren can drastically alter blood work dependent on the method of testing the blood draw lab uses.. deca will throw a false positive for super high Test levels (I'm talking 8000+ ng/dl), Tren on the other hand can throw a super high false positive for high estrogen levels
- Dbol will raise estrogen levels quite a bit (great for growth if thats what your after, but again will effect bloods significantly). high dose test is the same, both estrogen and androgens will go way up
- Masteron, on paper its not all that androgenic, but in real world use it very much acts like a strong androgen in the body.. yet won't alter blood work much at all . this can be added to TRT for more androgen load without having to increase your test dosage.
- most the other DHT based anabolics, like VAR, Primo, Winstrol, will also not effect blood work much. but like Mast they can effect SHBG (lower it) and show a bit higher total free test (this is not a bad thing). you would likely get a bit of an increase in DHT levels though (SHBG binds DHT more strongly then it does test)
EQ.. very little effects on blood work. would mainly be working in the background along side your TRT and simply increasing protein syntheses.
of course there are some genetic things you may have going on that could show up on blood work from any number of compounds.. like increased Hematocrit, elevated liver enzymes, drop in HDL cholesterol... these things generally clear up right away when coming off the drugs.
But I'm mainly talking about the drugs that don't effect your TRT based blood work (mainly your hormone panel.. thats what your doc is trying to get dialed in for you). but something like a massive drop in HDL cholesterol would not go un noticed by your doc.
anyhow, all this is just to say that in my opinion, adding anabolics to a TRT protocol is more effective then simply upping your TRT dosage of test. If gains are what your mainly after.
So I was able to get my doctor to give me 20 weeks in between bloodwork! Not the biggest window I’d prefer but better than a no lol..
Time to grow over the winter. I need to put on some sustainable mass. Going to add deca in the mix. 400mg 14-16 weeks, depending on how much time everyone thinks I need for it to clear. Gonna be my first run at anything aside from only test.
Also debating on either adding an oral throughout the cycle, or low dose mast (100-200mg) to work in the back ground and help with any potential deca sides (mostly the dht/dnt issue I’ve read). Maybe var? I feel like it might be not be the best option with a deca cycle, aside help with the dht increase which is my reasoning
I would run Deca for the first 8 or so weeks and then switch over to NPP (fast acting deca). that way you have time for the deca to clear way before any potential blood work (as Deca is definitely going to skew TRT based blood work)Quote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
also 16 weeks is a long time , so you don't necessarily have to just run one compound , its enough time to 'phase cycle' and do compound rotation.
if your reason for running the VAR is to lower SHBG and thus raise DHT levels because of deca converting to DHN rather then DHT ,, then your best doing that later on in the cycle. I'd say 5 weeks in.
keep in mind that Deca and Var are both non estrogenic anabolics . at some point in your cycle plans you may want to consider adding in an androgen and an estrogenic component.
your idea of adding in Mast will fit the bill in regards to adding in an androgen, and it also will lower SHBG and raise DHT just like Var (but its not near as anabolic as Var)
Shit. Back to the drawing board. I didn’t think the 14-16 time frame would be enough to rotate different compounds and still get the most out of each compound.Quote:
Originally Posted by GearHeaded
With that being said, least amount of time to run the anabolic?
Deca 400mg 1-10/12
Anavar 40-50mg 5-10/12
Tren ace 150mg 10/12-16
Dbol 20mg 10/12-16
Horrible or alright?
*I remember reading some of your suggested cycles, with throwing the estrogen compound in at the end to help fill out the new muscle tissue built from the anabolic compound*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krb367
you can run AAS in short durations no problem , heck just a few weeks if you want. they still work IF your base is still in place . No running just 2 weeks of Winstrol isn't going to do a whole lot if thats the only thing your running,, but running only 2 weeks of Winstrol along side a base steroid cycle thats already in place and going to run for a decent duration is just fine..
heres an analogy that might help -- lets say your goal was to get shit faced drunk .
you start out by drinking 5 shots of whisky in only an hour ,, but you run out of whisky and have to switch to Rum. well just because your switching over to Rum its not like your going to have to "start over" in your attempt to get drunk.. no the alcohol is already in your system as the foundation, switching to rum is just going to add to that foundation .
Similar with AAS cycles . in fact by rotating in more compounds over a given time (even though each ones duration may be shorter then normal) you may end up with better effects.
each different AAS compound has its own set of genetic code and information that it communicates to cells once bound. theres a benefit to continually rotating in new 'muscle building' information on a continual basis . and despite what most guys think, that AAS binds to receptors and just stay stuck there, different compounds will actually jump from receptor to receptor transcribing DNA and each different AAS is taking turns moving from receptor to receptor.
so there are quite a bit of benefits to be had by rotating compounds in shorter durations, but over the length of an entire cycle.
as far as your cycle .. I think those are all good compounds to run together. I'm not quite sure what the numbering is. it looks like your running Deca weeks 1-10. but what does the /12 mean after that ?
as far as running wet estrogenic compounds at the end of a cycle ,, I like that approach especially when trying to break a weight gain plateau. for eg.. lets say the last 3 cycles you've ran you've always topped out at 220 pounds but your goal is to get to 230 and you just can't get there. well what you can do on your next cycle is run mainly anabolics and dry compounds for most of the cycle and try to get to that 230 pounds ,, then at the end you run your wet estrogenic bulking compounds and suddenly blow past that plateau
Lol I had an idea it would confuse ppl.. wasn’t sure if the duration of the deca at 10 weeks would be long enough or if I should take it to 12 weeks. Which affected the rest of the cycle when things came in or went out.
I’ve honestly have never bulked on cycle lol. Every cycle (test only with an ai out the gate lol) was during a cut. Granted I always came out with gaining a couple lbs of lean mass while in the deficit.. Fuck the natural bulk this go around.
Should I save the wet compound at the end for another time? Since I’ve really never been in this situation or do y’all think it’s still a good time for that extra bump.
so this is how I would set it up if your plan was to run 14 weeks
Deca is your base/main compound . run that for the whole 14 weeks.. the other compounds you rotate in at different times.
Deca 400mg wk 1-14 (I would add NPP to this for the first 3 weeks at 100mg EOD)
Var 50mg day 4-8
tren 50mg day 8-14
Dbol 50mg day 9-14
test at TRT
basically the first half of your cycle is going to be an Anabolic phase.. your not going to blow up by any means, your going to just be slowly adding new tissue as you begin your bulk .. then the second half of your cycle is going to be a combo androgen/estrogen phase (with the anabolic still in the background) , this phase will blow you up and help your blow up the the new muscle tissue you started putting on in phase 1.
you'll see a ton of growth and fullness in phase 2 if your carbs are high and your pounding quality food.
the reason for adding NPP along side deca the first 3 weeks is just to help get the Nandrolone serum levels elevated more quickly ,, then after 3 weeks the deca will carry you the rest the way. even though it looks like your running 750mg of Nandrolone on paper that first few weeks , your really not cause the Deca is so long/slow of an ester.
I've been using Deca for years and now I never start it out without having some NPP in there with it. makes a big difference. just a little NPP those first few weeks and you've gotten way more out of your Deca cycle in its entirety (and whats one bottle of NPP to add in , not much)
Perfect. Above and beyond GH. I appreciate you fine tuning everything for me. I’ll definitely start a log post as soon as I start..