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Thread: Coming back after a failed first cycle

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    zigzagzig is offline Junior Member
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    Coming back after a failed first cycle

    In March 2018 I started my first cycle, a simple Test E 500mg/week. Unfortunately, one month later, I had to switch jobs and move to another city, making me stop it. Despite the short lived cycle, I did the full PCT protocol and I was able to retain most of the mass and strength the gains I made. Most of the change on my body was on recomposition and shape of muscles.

    I've been training natty since then and I believe I've got the most of it. I'm 36 yrs. old now and I'm starting to see that my performance on training is not advancing as it has been before.

    I'm planning to start my "first" cycle again and do it one twice a year for two or three years at least. I'm considering to do the basic one (described below) and then add more advanced compounds on the subsequent ones, if needed. I would like your input on my plans and also on my thoughts about adding HGH 3 IU EOD non-stop.

    I'm 5'11", currently 175lbs and 15%bf.

    Test E 500mg/week from week 1 to 12, pin 2x week.
    Aromisin 12.5mg EOD from week 1 to 14.
    HCG 750IU per week from week 1 to 14, 2x week.
    Clomid 75mg ED on week 15, 50mg on week 16, 25mg on weeks 17 and 18.
    Nolva 20mg ED from weeks 15 to 19.

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    It’s unlikely you’ll need the Aromasin at 500mg of test a week. Keep it on hand just Incase, but I wouldn’t use it unless you have to. Otherwise you’re just undoing a lot of potential good from the elevated estrogen levels.

    I’d probably run the nolvadex at 40mg instead of 20mg, at least the first week of pct.

    As for the hgh depends. Is it pharmaceutical or Chinese?
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    Thanks for the feedback. I already got a way to get the Chinese, but I'm still working to get the pharmaceutical one. What would be your insight for the Chinese and for the pharma?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Thanks for the feedback. I already got a way to get the Chinese, but I'm still working to get the pharmaceutical one. What would be your insight for the Chinese and for the pharma?
    I’d use twice as much chinese
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    I’d use twice as much chinese
    Which dosage of the Chinese would you recommend for a first 6 month cycle or an entire year cycle? I'm not heading to competition gains in the future but neither just a replacement therapy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Which dosage of the Chinese would you recommend for a first 6 month cycle or an entire year cycle? I'm not heading to competition gains in the future but neither just a replacement therapy.
    Just gotta try it and work your way up and see how it is. Start at 1iu, assess how your joints feel after a week or two. Go up to 2ius. Continue on this process until you get to 5 or 6ius.

    That would be my process anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Which dosage of the Chinese would you recommend for a first 6 month cycle or an entire year cycle? I'm not heading to competition gains in the future but neither just a replacement therapy.
    It would depend a lot on your goals from what I know about hgh. GearHeaded has a couple great write ups about this on here but I will try to paraphrase as best I can from memory.

    If your goal is burning fat then use the Gh at a couple IU first thing upon waking. This will cause a release of fatty acids into the bloodstr that can then be burned while doing fasted cardio.

    If your goal is bulking then I believe you should break up the dose into 2 doses pre and post workout I think. Or you could do one upon waking and one post workout.

    I’m no expert by any means but I think that’s the gist of it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    It would depend a lot on your goals from what I know about hgh. GearHeaded has a couple great write ups about this on here but I will try to paraphrase as best I can from memory.

    If your goal is burning fat then use the Gh at a couple IU first thing upon waking. This will cause a release of fatty acids into the bloodstr that can then be burned while doing fasted cardio.

    If your goal is bulking then I believe you should break up the dose into 2 doses pre and post workout I think. Or you could do one upon waking and one post workout.

    I’m no expert by any means but I think that’s the gist of it

    My goal is lean bulking. Not looking just for mass weight per se, but quality one. I've been "bulking" and "cutting" from 170lbs to 185lbs in the last years. But at 175lbs now, I look much better than at 185lbs on my early 30s. Now at 36 y.o., I feel this strategy is not working anymore. Also, I want to get to another level.

    By what I've researched so far, an initial 2 IU/ day (=4 IU/ day generic ?) would be good to assess the effects. However, I'm in doubt if that's the best approach to lean bulk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    My goal is lean bulking. Not looking just for mass weight per se, but quality one. I've been "bulking" and "cutting" from 170lbs to 185lbs in the last years. But at 175lbs now, I look much better than at 185lbs on my early 30s. Now at 36 y.o., I feel this strategy is not working anymore. Also, I want to get to another level.

    By what I've researched so far, an initial 2 IU/ day (=4 IU/ day generic ?) would be good to assess the effects. However, I'm in doubt if that's the best approach to lean bulk.
    Like I said man I’m no expert. Maybe someone else with more experience with GH can help

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    You can get your IGF levels tested to see how legit your GH is. Start with low dose and wait for sides to appear. If you don’t get achy joints, up the dose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    Like I said man I’m no expert. Maybe someone else with more experience with GH can help
    No worries. Thanks for the info!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The God Himself View Post
    You can get your IGF levels tested to see how legit your GH is. Start with low dose and wait for sides to appear. If you don’t get achy joints, up the dose.
    I'm planning to do it after 5 or 6 weeks in.
    I'm able to get a pharma brand instead of a generic one (much more expensive). However as it is not direct from the pharmacy, I'm inclined to get the "legit" Chinese as opposed to a chance of a fake pharma. Any opinion?

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    You need Test your IGF1 levels at Week 2 and Week 4. If it's fake then you contact your source to make it right, otherwise find a new source.

    If it's real but underdosed then you would adjust your dose accordingly.

    The idea that chinese is half the potency or pharma is internet nonsense by parrots

    If you don't know how to 100% confidently spot fake pharma gear then you should not be buying pharma gear.

    Some UGLs offer credits and incentives for bloodwork on their products.

    The best option is to find a reliable source. They are few and far between for HGH.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    In March 2018 I started my first cycle, a simple Test E 500mg/week. Unfortunately, one month later, I had to switch jobs and move to another city, making me stop it. Despite the short lived cycle, I did the full PCT protocol and I was able to retain most of the mass and strength the gains I made. Most of the change on my body was on recomposition and shape of muscles.

    I've been training natty since then and I believe I've got the most of it. I'm 36 yrs. old now and I'm starting to see that my performance on training is not advancing as it has been before.

    I'm planning to start my "first" cycle again and do it one twice a year for two or three years at least. I'm considering to do the basic one (described below) and then add more advanced compounds on the subsequent ones, if needed. I would like your input on my plans and also on my thoughts about adding HGH 3 IU EOD non-stop.

    I'm 5'11", currently 175lbs and 15%bf.

    Test E 500mg/week from week 1 to 12, pin 2x week.
    Aromisin 12.5mg EOD from week 1 to 14.
    HCG 750IU per week from week 1 to 14, 2x week.
    Clomid 75mg ED on week 15, 50mg on week 16, 25mg on weeks 17 and 18.
    Nolva 20mg ED from weeks 15 to 19.
    That's a bit much HCG, IMHO. I prefer to run GH 5 days on, 2 days off.
    There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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    I've read that the 5 on 2 off theory is off and just really used because it's too expensive for some.

    Personally I ran 4iu Chinese HGH for 4 months 7 days a week. I started at 2.5 and moved up to 4iu and was happy there. My body felt great no huge gains or massive differences but it supported my pre cycle training and my shoulders havnt felt as good since, best restful sleeps of my life as well.

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    Thanks you all for the inputs. My updated plan is to start with 1iu/day on the first week, then 2iu/day on the second and third, then 3iu 5on/2off for another month. If all goes wright, I'll up to 4iu after the blood work.
    I'll start my AAS cycle on the third week of HCG .

    Is it OK to stop it for a week during Xmas air travels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Thanks you all for the inputs. My updated plan is to start with 1iu/day on the first week, then 2iu/day on the second and third, then 3iu 5on/2off for another month. If all goes wright, I'll up to 4iu after the blood work.
    I'll start my AAS cycle on the third week of HCG .

    Is it OK to stop it for a week during Xmas air travels?
    Yes it’s just fine to stop it for a week

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeCee112 View Post
    I've read that the 5 on 2 off theory is off and just really used because it's too expensive for some.

    Personally I ran 4iu Chinese HGH for 4 months 7 days a week. I started at 2.5 and moved up to 4iu and was happy there. My body felt great no huge gains or massive differences but it supported my pre cycle training and my shoulders havnt felt as good since, best restful sleeps of my life as well.
    I run it at 5 on/2 off because I run it low dose (2 iu) as an aid to healing...this time nerve damage. At 5 on/2 off, my IGF-1 is still in the mid to high 400s on a non shot day, so yes, if I can extend my low dose run and maintain a decent IGF-1 score, I definitely go that route.

    On the other hand, if I was going for growth purposes, I would work up to 6-8 iu/day every day.
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    I've just received my pre-cycle blood work. Apparently my total and free Test are at a reasonable level:
    Total 673,0 ng/dL
    Free 418,6 pmol/L

    IGF-1: 117 ng/mL

    From what I've red around the forum, I should expect the IGF-1 to be above 400ng/mL by the 4th to 5th week of HGH. Righ?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    I've just received my pre-cycle blood work. Apparently my total and free Test are at a reasonable level:
    Total 673,0 ng/dL
    Free 418,6 pmol/L

    IGF-1: 117 ng/mL

    From what I've red around the forum, I should expect the IGF-1 to be above 400ng/mL by the 4th to 5th week of HGH. Righ?!
    The result is going to vary based on dosage, the lab running the bloodwork, the ref. ranges used, and how much you control your other variables before the blood is drawn.

    There is no number that it "should" be because there are too many variables as mentioned above. What matters is the result relative to the initial bloodwork while considering how all the other variables were handled.
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    Hey guys,

    In the beginning of August, I started HGH 1iu/workout days on the first week, increased to 1.5 on the second, now on third I'm at 2.0iu. All taken 1 hour before gym. I've been having wild dreams at night, great disposition at waking up, fat loss, and some strength gains. However, I got some water retention (+3 lbs, expected), some lethargy, but the worse has been the increase in blood pressure. I'm taking Magnesium Glycinate 2x400mg at night plus CoQ10 1x100mg. What else could I do to help decrease blood pressure back to my normal levels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Hey guys,

    In the beginning of August, I started HGH 1iu/workout days on the first week, increased to 1.5 on the second, now on third I'm at 2.0iu. All taken 1 hour before gym. I've been having wild dreams at night, great disposition at waking up, fat loss, and some strength gains. However, I got some water retention (+3 lbs, expected), some lethargy, but the worse has been the increase in blood pressure. I'm taking Magnesium Glycinate 2x400mg at night plus CoQ10 1x100mg. What else could I do to help decrease blood pressure back to my normal levels?
    Not really sure that the GH is the culprit. If your BP is slightly elevated, a Citrulline/ L-arginine combo may help. Believe it or not, increased hydration can help.
    If that doesn't work and you are consistently having elevated BP, you may want to consider a mild dosage of an ARB type BP med. Some guys don't worry about it, I'm one who does, depending on how elevated the BP is.
    If you feel it is fluid retention, you could drop your carbs down low for a few days, but I personally don't like to do that on blast or a cycle.
    If I were restricting carbs, I would plan my cycle as such, and have my diet planned out ahead of time.
    Last edited by almostgone; 08-30-2019 at 07:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    Not really sure that the GH is the culprit. If your BP is slightly elevated, a Citrulline/ L-arginine combo may help. Believe it or not, increased hydration can help.
    If that doesn't work and you are consistently having elevated BP, you may want to consider a mild dosage of an ARB type BP med. Some guys don't worry about it, I'm one who does, depending on how elevated the BP is.
    If you feel it is fluid retention, you could drop your carbs down low for a few days, but I personally don't like to do that on blast or a cycle.
    If I were restricting carbs, I would plan my cycle as such, and have my diet planned out ahead of time.
    I'll try. I'm specially worried bc I'll start a Test-E cycle soon on top of it and I fear it may aggravate the problem.

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    Hey guys, I'm currently on my 6th week of my Test E + HGH cycle. When I started the cycle I was at 180lbs and now I'm at 196lbs. I hope to reach the 200 mark. Initially, I set the Arimidex aside but on the third week as I felt gyno-like symptoms I started it at 0.2EOD. One week later, I decided to diminish the Arimidex and see if I could fade it out slowly again. It worked. I haven't taken it since the beginning of week 5 and I'm feeling great so far.

    I'm very impressed with the strength gains. A month and a half ago I was benching 8x225lbs, now I'm at 8x275lbs. I simply don't feel tired at the gym no matter how long I stay there. When I hit an exercise until failure, I don't feel the muscles burn or hurt, they just don't perform it, and I'm good to go to the next one. Amazing and worrisome. Mostly because, I am afraid of injuries.

    In terms of size, I'm happy with it. Biceps came from a cold 16" to 17.25", and from 16.5" to 17.5" pumped. However, I do look like a ballon at the gym with the pump. Lol. I imagine it is all water retention. I believe I've also crossed the 15% body fat line in the last two weeks. Therefore, regarding the ballon effect and the bf issues, do you guys recommend me to do something now to tackle these issues or should I only think about them on a second cycle and keep getting the most from this one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Hey guys, I'm currently on my 6th week of my Test E + HGH cycle. When I started the cycle I was at 180lbs and now I'm at 196lbs. I hope to reach the 200 mark. Initially, I set the Arimidex aside but on the third week as I felt gyno-like symptoms I started it at 0.2EOD. One week later, I decided to diminish the Arimidex and see if I could fade it out slowly again. It worked. I haven't taken it since the beginning of week 5 and I'm feeling great so far.

    I'm very impressed with the strength gains. A month and a half ago I was benching 8x225lbs, now I'm at 8x275lbs. I simply don't feel tired at the gym no matter how long I stay there. When I hit an exercise until failure, I don't feel the muscles burn or hurt, they just don't perform it, and I'm good to go to the next one. Amazing and worrisome. Mostly because, I am afraid of injuries.

    In terms of size, I'm happy with it. Biceps came from a cold 16" to 17.25", and from 16.5" to 17.5" pumped. However, I do look like a ballon at the gym with the pump. Lol. I imagine it is all water retention. I believe I've also crossed the 15% body fat line in the last two weeks. Therefore, regarding the ballon effect and the bf issues, do you guys recommend me to do something now to tackle these issues or should I only think about them on a second cycle and keep getting the most from this one?
    What’s “gyno like symptoms”??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    What’s “gyno like symptoms”??
    Thats when you grow titties and like it.
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    Yeah. I had a supersensitivity on my nipples during the 3rd week and they were puffy.

    Any insights regarding my increase in bf and the ballon effect? Is there anything I could change to make the muscles come from a bloated look to a little more hardened?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Yeah. I had a supersensitivity on my nipples during the 3rd week and they were puffy.

    Any insights regarding my increase in bf and the ballon effect? Is there anything I could change to make the muscles come from a bloated look to a little more hardened?
    Use different compounds. Test is gonna make you bloat/full no matter what. It’s a good thing! Your bulking right? Something like eq doesn’t bloat you at all. Sometung luke mast or tren would get you harder

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    if your feeling bloated and watery (which is fine for growth) but thats not the look you want, then I'd drop the test down to TRT dosages and add more anabolic compounds like Var and Primo . at your height though, I'd be looking at hitting at least 215 pounds. so don't switch compounds and decide to cut. just dry out a bit but keep bulking

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    if your feeling bloated and watery (which is fine for growth) but thats not the look you want, then I'd drop the test down to TRT dosages and add more anabolic compounds like Var and Primo . at your height though, I'd be looking at hitting at least 215 pounds. so don't switch compounds and decide to cut. just dry out a bit but keep bulking
    Thanks for the reply. I will keep the test E only on this cycle, for sure. A 215lbs target is great, but what worries me is to enter on a never ending bulk.

    Example. I'm at 196lbs, 7th week, added 16lbs, weight gains are decreasing on a per week basis, as expected, and I'm targeting to get to 200lbs by the end of the 12th week, a 20lbs increase. If everything goes right, I'd lose around 10lbs after the first cycle, I'll be at 190lbs on the beginning of the 2nd one. However, there are diminishing gains from one cycle to the next one, what probably would make my second cycle to add only 15lbs. That leaves me with an expected final weight of 205 at the end of the second on. Probably, I'd have do do a 3rd or a 4th straight bulking cycle to get there. Of course, these numbers come with assumptions that may not be true. But, how could I plan myself to get to 215lbs without having to do 3 or 4 bulking cycles? Below I list some of my thoughts

    1) Maybe I should target 210lbs, instead of 215. It's a small decrease, but makes a difference. I'm not looking to compete but to have a fitness level physique.

    2) How about doing a PCT only after my second cycle? Would you recommend staying at TRT levels + HGH from the end of 1st and the beginning of the 2nd? If so, the off-cycle time could be shortened without compromising the second one?

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    Yeah, I'm bulking. I'll stick to the Test E on this one and get most of it. Now, I'm shifting my worries to the second one and the bridge. I believe it would be to early to get into Tren in a 2nd cycle. Maybe Test + Eq would be a good combination for the 2nd?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Yeah, I'm bulking. I'll stick to the Test E on this one and get most of it. Now, I'm shifting my worries to the second one and the bridge. I believe it would be to early to get into Tren in a 2nd cycle. Maybe Test + Eq would be a good combination for the 2nd?
    Ya man I liked EQ I just didn’t dose it high enough(only 400mg EQ) it made me harder but I don’t think it’s a great bulker. Like GH always says it’s a filler. Like if you want to use 1.5grams of test but you can’t handle the sides so you use 500mg test and 1000mg eq

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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    Ya man I liked EQ I just didn’t dose it high enough(only 400mg EQ) it made me harder but I don’t think it’s a great bulker. Like GH always says it’s a filler. Like if you want to use 1.5grams of test but you can’t handle the sides so you use 500mg test and 1000mg eq
    What do you think would be a good dosage for a second cycle?

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    I've added 50mg of proviron ED and I look harder and much less bloated. So far, no noticeable changes in my hair. I'll keep it until the end if I don't see any DHT issues.

    I'm on my 8th week at 198lbs. Seems that I'm still adding a consistent 2lbs per week, not sure though for how long. The changes in weight from day to day are wide. Between night and day too. When I go to bed I weight 202lbs and wake up at 198lbs.

    Still 4 weeks to go. Shame it has to end, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    What do you think would be a good dosage for a second cycle?
    If I was to do it over again I would run 500mg test and 1000mg EQ. I know that seems like a crazy amount but you gotta remember EQ has nearly 0 side effects. I read a very interesting article saying that eq doesn’t start to shine until you get to the 1.5-3gram range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    If I was to do it over again I would run 500mg test and 1000mg EQ. I know that seems like a crazy amount but you gotta remember EQ has nearly 0 side effects. I read a very interesting article saying that eq doesn’t start to shine until you get to the 1.5-3gram range.
    I never had high hemotocrit until eq.

    Thats a crazy statement.
    The ways AAS cause the elevation are still not fully known as of 2018.

    I wouldnt venture out to get a newbie to run that high of a dose.

    700 took me to 183/107 bp.

    Everything is individual specific
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    Yeah, I'm bulking. I'll stick to the Test E on this one and get most of it. Now, I'm shifting my worries to the second one and the bridge. I believe it would be to early to get into Tren in a 2nd cycle. Maybe Test + Eq would be a good combination for the 2nd?
    You won't be able to bulk on Tren in a second cycle.
    I no longer check my inbox. If you PM me I will not reply.

  38. #38
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    Obs is online now "Convert Emotion to Willpower"
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    Quote Originally Posted by zigzagzig View Post
    In March 2018 I started my first cycle, a simple Test E 500mg/week. Unfortunately, one month later, I had to switch jobs and move to another city, making me stop it. Despite the short lived cycle, I did the full PCT protocol and I was able to retain most of the mass and strength the gains I made. Most of the change on my body was on recomposition and shape of muscles.

    I've been training natty since then and I believe I've got the most of it. I'm 36 yrs. old now and I'm starting to see that my performance on training is not advancing as it has been before.

    I'm planning to start my "first" cycle again and do it one twice a year for two or three years at least. I'm considering to do the basic one (described below) and then add more advanced compounds on the subsequent ones, if needed. I would like your input on my plans and also on my thoughts about adding HGH 3 IU EOD non-stop.

    I'm 5'11", currently 175lbs and 15%bf.

    Test E 500mg/week from week 1 to 12, pin 2x week.
    Aromisin 12.5mg EOD from week 1 to 14.
    HCG 750IU per week from week 1 to 14, 2x week.
    Clomid 75mg ED on week 15, 50mg on week 16, 25mg on weeks 17 and 18.
    Nolva 20mg ED from weeks 15 to 19.
    I hope you dont mean you are gonna cycle a few years and stop.

    Not being arrogant or snarky or negative. I want you to succeed and be happy.

    Done correctly you are gonna be a large man in a few years. You will look better than you could have dreamed even if you dont feel that way.

    Walking away means returning to a much lesser state physically. It can be much easier said than done.

    I thought the same thing once.
    Now I know I will never stop and it will never be enough.

    Its like being a drug dealer and going to prison when you leave it.

    You get back out and get a job making minimum wage but you always know you could make 250k in a month the other way. That voice is always whispering ...

  39. #39
    zigzagzig is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    I hope you dont mean you are gonna cycle a few years and stop.

    Not being arrogant or snarky or negative. I want you to succeed and be happy.

    Done correctly you are gonna be a large man in a few years. You will look better than you could have dreamed even if you dont feel that way.

    Walking away means returning to a much lesser state physically. It can be much easier said than done.

    I thought the same thing once.
    Now I know I will never stop and it will never be enough.

    Its like being a drug dealer and going to prison when you leave it.

    You get back out and get a job making minimum wage but you always know you could make 250k in a month the other way. That voice is always whispering ...

    My current mindset is to cycle heavy enough to reach my goals and then reduce the pace just to keep them in place. I'm getting great results so far on the first cycle, I've come from 180lbs to 199 now on my 8th week. However, a first bulk cycle seems to be the most straightforward one. With a relatively low dosage Test and a standard macro counting, the gains come easily. Once you go to the 5th, 6th and so one, there are naturally diminishing returns. The care with nutrients become more challenging and the dosages and mixing are a trial and error. As long as I keep improving, have time, and my overall health allows for it, I'll keep in this path. Certainly, if I had started in my late 20s or early 30s it would be different. I just don't want to create unfeasible expectations when I just turned 37.
    Obs likes this.

  40. #40
    zigzagzig is offline Junior Member
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    Tren is out of my radar for a second or third one.

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