Muscle lose

**bethdoth** · 09-03-2019, 10:10 AM

It's been a bad year for me and I have been pretty much injured since January. I have had to stop lifting twice since then for about 5 weeks each time. Been trying everything to get my back and right shoulder to heal. When I was able to lift it was not a frequent, lighter weights, and with less intensity. I am able to lift again now, but I am no where close to being 100%.
I turned 58 in July and did not start on TRT until I was 50 and didn't do a cycle until about 4 years ago. I feel the majority of the muscle I have was pre-steroid /TRT, I would say about 75% is natural. I am going on 8 months since I have truly been able to lift heavy and or frequently. When I couldn't lift at all I kicked up my cardio to an hour about 5 times a week in an attempt to not gain to much bodyfat. So after 8 months of shit workouts and normal summer partying, I feel I have done pretty good at maintaining what I had (see pic). I haven't had my Bodyfat checked but feel I have not lost any muscle and have maybe picked up a percent of bodyfat.
The reason I post this is to spark debate. Not sure how to put this? Do you feel natural muscle stays on the frame longer than muscle built via steroid use ? Or is muscle muscle and when we stop lifting we shrink equally no matter how it was built. I have seen guys that get big in a hurry from stacking a ton of various compounds and then it seems they shrink overnight or just get fat.

**Kyle1337** · 09-03-2019, 12:12 PM

Without getting deep into the weeds here... Yes of course muscle gained when on AAS will fall of quicker than 'natural' muscle. This is because you're not running superphysiological doses of hormones anymore. Trt should do a decent job of preserving natural muscle, unless you become a complete couch potato.

**i_SLAM_cougars** · 09-03-2019, 12:51 PM

I think it depends on how far past your natural genetic limit you are, how long you have held that muscle for, and your diet/exercise routine off cycle

**HoldMyBeer** · 09-03-2019, 01:01 PM

I think it's the same
The reason it doesn't seem to be, you don't have as much muscle as you think you do when you're on gear. A lot of that is your muscle holding onto more water, glycogen, etc making it look like you have more than you do

**bethdoth** · 09-03-2019, 01:04 PM

Both interesting points. I never thought of TRT as preserving muscle since I am always trying to just get a bit leaner and a bit bigger in certain muscle groups. Genetics as well, I probably not much past where my genetics would take me. So as long as I don't become a potato chip eating ... Mount Dew drinking lazy ass, I could look pretty good all the way into my 70's!

**Windex** · 09-03-2019, 02:05 PM

Are you on HGH and are you familiar with BPC157 or TB500 ?

If I was in your shoes I'd use the above to combat anti aging as well as injury management. In terms of HRT, I think adding in 100mg of Primo with 50mg of Deca would be beneficial. You could also look into DHEA.

I've been on HRT since 18 so can't help much in terms of your original question.

**GearHeaded** · 09-05-2019, 09:03 AM

my 'on cycle' and heavy training and good diet weight set point is about 212 pounds and lean.. my off cycle weight, yet still training hard is about 207 pounds. the 5 pound loss is mainly due to inter cellular water retention in the muscle and the super compensation ability to load more glycogen while on gear.
so really the AAS does not make a huge difference here.. BUT. when I fall off completely, have an injury or shit just happens and I don't train or eat right for weeks on end, and drink too much ,, I'll fall all the way down to low 190s.

its really the food and the training that is the real stimulus to holding onto muscle.. the idea that you come off of gear and lose all your gains is BS. you lose gains cause your diet and training go to crap when you come off of gear. yes you look bigger and fuller and harder when on gear because of all the glycogen retention, but thats maybe 5 pounds

once I get back to it, I'll jump right back up to 210 .. I think losing actual muscle 'tissue' itself takes quite a bit of time. cell shrinking is what your probably experiencing.
I'd do what you can to provide some stimulus. eat quality food.. keep your hormonal levels in check ( I see no problem cruising on something like Primo at 300mg per week, even if your diet and training are shit).
you'll bounce right back

**kelkel** · 09-05-2019, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

its really the food and the training that is the real stimulus to holding onto muscle..

Absolutely. So many guys come off cycle and lose their motivation then their training and diet suffers, thus they lose muscle. Got to be consistent or you're simply riding a roller coaster.

**i_SLAM_cougars** · 09-05-2019, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Absolutely. So many guys come off cycle and lose their motivation then their training and diet suffers, thus they lose muscle. Got to be consistent or you're simply riding a roller coaster.

The obvious solution in that instance is to... not come off

**bethdoth** · 09-05-2019, 09:54 AM

I am kinda at a crossroads. Injuries this year and really bad sides from my only tren E ycle last spring have me fearing going back to what I was doing Tren A (about 5 of these cycles). So I haven't run a cycle this summer, may this fall if my injuries improve. I have always worked out, the only thing that changes is my dedication to a clean diet and out of control binge drinking. I did do some research into Primo. Like I said I didn't lose muscle just gained a percent of Bodyfat, gotta get diet and drinking under control.

**kelkel** · 09-05-2019, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars

The obvious solution in that instance is to... not come off

There's always that!

**Obs** · 09-05-2019, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars

The obvious solution in that instance is to... not come off

Beat me to it

**Obs** · 09-05-2019, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

my 'on cycle' and heavy training and good diet weight set point is about 212 pounds and lean.. my off cycle weight, yet still training hard is about 207 pounds. the 5 pound loss is mainly due to inter cellular water retention in the muscle and the super compensation ability to load more glycogen while on gear.
so really the AAS does not make a huge difference here.. BUT. when I fall off completely, have an injury or shit just happens and I don't train or eat right for weeks on end, and drink too much ,, I'll fall all the way down to low 190s.

its really the food and the training that is the real stimulus to holding onto muscle.. the idea that you come off of gear and lose all your gains is BS. you lose gains cause your diet and training go to crap when you come off of gear. yes you look bigger and fuller and harder when on gear because of all the glycogen retention, but thats maybe 5 pounds

once I get back to it, I'll jump right back up to 210 .. I think losing actual muscle 'tissue' itself takes quite a bit of time. cell shrinking is what your probably experiencing.
I'd do what you can to provide some stimulus. eat quality food.. keep your hormonal levels in check ( I see no problem cruising on something like Primo at 300mg per week, even if your diet and training are shit).
you'll bounce right back

Not arguing with you I would look dumb and aint scientific.

There is also other factors besides glycogen.

Increased protein and phosphate synthesis allowing for more creatine phosphate which allows more shit to be done in the first place, which cannot be touched by a creatine supplement as this is allowing more to be present. Higher nitrogen retention...

It should be impossible to maintain if secondary factors arent used once off cycle. It just makes a guy less of a beast.

I vote rotate compounds and never stop.
Even if its not AAS at least prepare some sort of bridge.

**GearHeaded** · 09-06-2019, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by Obs

Not arguing with you I would look dumb and aint scientific.

There is also other factors besides glycogen.

Increased protein and phosphate synthesis allowing for more creatine phosphate which allows more shit to be done in the first place, which cannot be touched by a creatine supplement as this is allowing more to be present. Higher nitrogen retention...

It should be impossible to maintain if secondary factors arent used once off cycle. It just makes a guy less of a beast.

I vote rotate compounds and never stop.
Even if its not AAS at least prepare some sort of bridge.

I agree with this.. but I don't think that all adds up to as much actual mass as people think it does. the added glycogen retention, nitrogen retention creatine phosphate up regulation, etc. etc.. probably adds about 5-7 pounds, person dependent. now granite, in the mirror and pumps in the gym, that 5-7 pounds can make a very big visible difference. also sure the weight on the scale may actually be up 20 pounds, but thats mainly water .

guys that blow up 30 pounds on cycle and then totally shrink when off cycle, are doing something wrong. its probably their off cycle nutrition and training.

BUT all the above factors, all that added glycogen and nitrogen retention and even the added water retention will help you build muscle tissue in the long term. so maybe its only 5 pounds, but more tissue is going to be slowly added because of those factors and your set point for each future blast you do may be higher.
so every time you run a cycle you may add that 5 pounds of cycle weight,, but you should be growing new tissue over time, so even though it may only be 5 pounds, every cycle you do your set point may be higher and higher.
thats why if your losing ALL your gains when coming off cycle , then something isn't working right.. the tissue you build while on cycle should be continuing to grow and you should be acclimating to it (even when off cycle)
Thats how guys like Charger go from 180 pound stage weight, to 205 pound stage weight his last show. he didn't stay on cycle for a year straight, but when he did blast he made the most of it and then got his body to acclimate to the new set point with each blast that he did.

no matter if your running 500mg per week or 8 grams of gear per week..protein synthesis can only occur so fast and its limited by time. gear speeds up the process, but its still a time limited process. now the 5-7 pounds you jump up when blasting from the added glycogen and nitrogen retention helps that process, but its still going to take time. proteins and tissue can only be built so fast.

now of course you can stay on cycle and rotate compounds, and "phase cycle" where you have periods of anabolic runs, estrogenic runs, androgenic runs, etc.. and you will continue to add weight and add new tissue at more advanced pace.
100% agree that compound rotation and "bridging" is the way to go for anyone serious about transforming their physique..

saying all that gibberish -- my only point is that when coming off cycle you shouldn't lose a ton of weight if you were actually putting on quality tissue and doing things right.

my on cycle weight is about 212 (the last few heavy blasts that I did .. the next few blasts that I do that set point should get higher and higher. so next blast it should be 216 , then 220 etc.).. my off cycle weight is about 207. but my being a pussy ass slacker that misses meals and misses workouts weight is in the 190s.. this just tells me , for me personally at least , constant nutrition and training is the number one stimulus for holding onto muscle

edit - note that the above numbers and that 5-7 pounds I mention is NOT including water weight.. of course you can run 2 grams of test and 150mg of Dbol a day and put on much more then 5-7 pounds very easily. the 5-7 pounds I'm speaking of is quality weight

**GearHeaded** · 09-06-2019, 07:07 AM

look at the pro bodybuilder Foud Abiad.. he had tricep tendon re-attachment surgery recently. he's been off cycle and just now getting back to the gym. but he's still a pretty massive 280 pounds without being on gear. its probably because he has gotten his body acclimated to that weight over time and he doesn't miss meals. he has used gear for 20 years, and over that time he's put on quality real tissue . thats hard to lose.

same with Dusty Hanshaw.. he says that most people can never tell when he's blasting gear or not. he's jacked 280 wither on or off. he says his training partner is the only person who will know because he will lose a couple reps on his foundational exercises.

of course I don't doubt that both of these guys are never really "off cycle",, I'm talking about when they are simply not blasting and just cruising on say 400mg of test (thats still off cycle for a lot of guys)..

also, the Super Natty, Mike O'hearn.. that dude is always a jacked lean 270 pounds. you can't really tell when he is upping the hormones or not.

I think thats a sign of having put on quality tissue over the years.

guys who are newer lifters and new to AAS usage,, you can almost always tell when they are on a cycle. they blow up, gain a bunch of puffy weight, get all flushed and red and round faced, break out everywhere, etc..

**Obs** · 09-06-2019, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

look at the pro bodybuilder Foud Abiad.. he had tricep tendon re-attachment surgery recently. he's been off cycle and just now getting back to the gym. but he's still a pretty massive 280 pounds without being on gear. its probably because he has gotten his body acclimated to that weight over time and he doesn't miss meals. he has used gear for 20 years, and over that time he's put on quality real tissue . thats hard to lose.

same with Dusty Hanshaw.. he says that most people can never tell when he's blasting gear or not. he's jacked 280 wither on or off. he says his training partner is the only person who will know because he will lose a couple reps on his foundational exercises.

of course I don't doubt that both of these guys are never really "off cycle",, I'm talking about when they are simply not blasting and just cruising on say 400mg of test (thats still off cycle for a lot of guys)..

also, the Super Natty, Mike O'hearn.. that dude is always a jacked lean 270 pounds. you can't really tell when he is upping the hormones or not.

I think thats a sign of having put on quality tissue over the years.

guys who are newer lifters and new to AAS usage,, you can almost always tell when they are on a cycle. they blow up, gain a bunch of puffy weight, get all flushed and red and round faced, break out everywhere, etc..

Feroce never small.
Only time he shrinks is when he is about to step on stage.

Carrying mass a long time makes a huge difference in how hard it is to lose imo

**GearHeaded** · 09-06-2019, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Obs

Feroce never small.
Only time he shrinks is when he is about to step on stage.

Carrying mass a long time makes a huge difference in how hard it is to lose imo

Seth is another good example .. however he is kinda that blunt and brutally honest guy thats going to tell you point blank when he's eating his Wheaties and swallowing his Anadrols for breakfast . he's like "look at me,, this 12 iu of HGH and pharma grade test and deca I got scripted from the doctor is the fucking shit" .. lol, love Seth

**Obs** · 09-06-2019, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

Seth is another good example .. however he is kinda that blunt and brutally honest guy thats going to tell you point blank when he's eating his Wheaties and swallowing his Anadrols for breakfast . he's like "look at me,, this 12 iu of HGH and pharma grade test and deca I got scripted from the doctor is the fucking shit" .. lol, love Seth

His latest video "willingness to do what it takes" is a good one.

He has said more things that align with my mindset than anyone.

**Myers** · 09-06-2019, 04:00 PM

Here you go, from my personal exp:
I was off training for a year, completely, i had a heavy depression in 2018 for most of it, due to life kicking my ass completely and my whole family's
I stopped training, ate like conplete crap, first in deficite than i ate tons of junk
You imagine what happened, 1st i lost all gains and dropped to atound 7 bf, then i went up to 15 16 and all was fat
I got back on track thanks to the psychiatrist and very mild AD med.

I got married, found a job, and now since january 2k19 both me and wife are hitting the gym harder than ever

1st i just started training, ate a lot of protein and didnt watch my calories, bulked up heavy, i was still bit unstable
Fat, water and muscle, all together, buuut all my muscle literally all of it came back and i made even more
Now i did a fkin 5 month cut, with 2 10 day breaks
And im back around 12 bf, maybe even lil less, at 103.5 kg
Even more strength than ive had when i finished my last cycle
Feeling better than ever

Im on a trt dose, nebido every 9 weeks

Im really happry right now, last cycle was 2 years ago, im gonna blast in 2 or 3 weeks

After new year, im gonna get off AD meds, my brain and consciousness is healed, all my OCD negative neural networks are gone, i fought trough it and won.

So yeah, u get to keep all the muscle, but i dont think u can keep something that ur genome wont let u keep

**GearHeaded** · 09-06-2019, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Obs

His latest video "willingness to do what it takes" is a good one.

He has said more things that align with my mindset than anyone.

I've seen it. I agree with it.. but a lot of those words simply help you find your place and realize things. I personally am not willing to do what it takes, in regards to bodybuilding, thats for sure. I don't want to have super bad anxiety, sleepless nights, sweating constantly, etc. etc.. and kill myself in the gym and be stuffed full from food all the time. I personally like being a little more comfortable. but thats why I have a mediocre physique (in relationship to my position in the fitness industry.. I'm sure its just fine in regards to your average dad in his mid 40s).. but thats also why I realize my limiting factors, strength and weakness, and know I'm a way better coach and trainer then I'm a bodybuilder.

I'm not willing to do what it takes in those regards.. however, I am willing to do what it takes in other things. I will stay up until 3am reading every damn book on bodybuilding.. I will research and study every AAS profile in existence. I will read studies done on the elderly and animals. I will waste 5 hours of my day just looking into simple little things related to these topics.
a lot of guys couldn't stomach doing that type of research for even an hour , let alone hours a day for years on end.

so we all should "do whatever it takes" , but within our own context and place in life. not do whatever it takes based on what someone else is doing or accomplishing.

**Obs** · 09-06-2019, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

I've seen it. I agree with it.. but a lot of those words simply help you find your place and realize things. I personally am not willing to do what it takes, in regards to bodybuilding, thats for sure. I don't want to have super bad anxiety, sleepless nights, sweating constantly, etc. etc.. and kill myself in the gym and be stuffed full from food all the time. I personally like being a little more comfortable. but thats why I have a mediocre physique (in relationship to my position in the fitness industry.. I'm sure its just fine in regards to your average dad in his mid 40s).. but thats also why I realize my limiting factors, strength and weakness, and know I'm a way better coach and trainer then I'm a bodybuilder.

I'm not willing to do what it takes in those regards.. however, I am willing to do what it takes in other things. I will stay up until 3am reading every damn book on bodybuilding.. I will research and study every AAS profile in existence. I will read studies done on the elderly and animals. I will waste 5 hours of my day just looking into simple little things related to these topics.
a lot of guys couldn't stomach doing that type of research for even an hour , let alone hours a day for years on end.

so we all should "do whatever it takes" , but within our own context and place in life. not do whatever it takes based on what someone else is doing or accomplishing.

I have his same mindset.
What I do in trees and with business is why I am not his physique.

He does things in the gym I can't and I would make him cry trying to keep step with me moving a giant elm.

Once I transition this shit to a broader diversification with employees rather than my own body sustaining the work of four, feroce will look up to me. Not just because he is a short fucker.

Thats a promise.

The willingness to do what it takes for me is rather: I would rather die than not do what it takes.

I will never be comfortable or satisfied.
Its not a good thing but it is.

**GearHeaded** · 09-06-2019, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Obs

I have his same mindset.
What I do in trees and with business is why I am not his physique.

He does things in the gym I can't and I would make him cry trying to keep step with me moving a giant elm.

Once I transition this shit to a broader diversification with employees rather than my own body sustaining the work of four, feroce will look up to me. Not just because he is a short fucker.

Thats a promise.

The willingness to do what it takes for me is rather: I would rather die than not do what it takes.

I will never be comfortable or satisfied.
Its not a good thing but it is.

love this post and this mind set

**Family_guy** · 09-11-2019, 11:37 AM

I think in terms of losing your muscle it all depends on how far past your natural potential you are. If the steroids have pushed you past your potential then you stop training I think you would lose those gains back to your genetic peak much quicker than the gains your body can handle naturally. But again like GH said I do think losing muscle is a fairly slow process as long as your still eating enough

**GearHeaded** · 09-11-2019, 12:46 PM

a lot of pros that retire and then look like they don't even lift anymore , is NOT because they got off all the gear . its because they stopped eating 10x per day and training 2x per day.

**RoxRunner** · 09-12-2019, 01:35 PM

This was a refreshing post. My workout regimen was pretty bad this summer with a long distance move and a very long vacation (no gym, horrible diet, great beer and whiskey). Luckily I didn't lose much mass but unfortunately I did put on a wee bit of fat. It's slowly coming off as my diet is getting cleaner and my workout cycle getting into my "normal" rhythm.