Minimum effective dose

[HoldMyBeer]

Other than testosterone (because you need a certain amount to replace natural production), is there really a minimum effective dose for gear? A lot of times I hear, "you have to run X gear at Y mgs per week to see results." I believe there's a point of diminishing returns, but shouldn't there be reasonably linear benefits up until that point?
For example, someone said the minimum effective dose for EQ is 400mg/week, so adding 100/week would do nothing? Or even 50? That doesn't make sense to me

[i_SLAM_cougars]

I think it just means you won’t be able to tell. Like if you have a headache instead of taking 2 excedrin you just take half of one. Your headache isn’t going to go away. Now if you take half an excedrin, half an aleve, half a Tylenol, and half an Advil all at the same time it might.

[HoldMyBeer]

I think it just means you won’t be able to tell. Like if you have a headache instead of taking 2 excedrin you just take half of one. Your headache isn’t going to go away. Now if you take half an excedrin, half an aleve, half a Tylenol, and half an Advil all at the same time it might.

Yeah. That's what I was thinking.
Let's say there are 300 different types of aas, if you took 1mg of each on top of TrT, that would have to do something
(Maybe even turn you into a superhero, who knows)

[i_SLAM_cougars]

Yeah. That's what I was thinking.
Let's say there are 300 different types of aas, if you took 1mg of each on top of TrT, that would have to do something
(Maybe even turn you into a superhero, who knows)

Hmm... might have to try that sometime. I was going for super hero but I think they’re turning me into a werewolf. I used to be relatively hairless... it has added/thickened a lot of body hair on me.

[balance]

Well when talking minimum effective dose in reference to BB is likely very different than minimum effective dose for say medical purposes. So following that logic from a BB perspective I would believe minimum effective dosage is something you should notice in strength and or mass gains over a given amount of time. The time variable though in and of itself can be quite debatable especially when ester length is concerned and how patient or impatient the individual is.


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[Obs]

Other than testosterone (because you need a certain amount to replace natural production), is there really a minimum effective dose for gear? A lot of times I hear, "you have to run X gear at Y mgs per week to see results." I believe there's a point of diminishing returns, but shouldn't there be reasonably linear benefits up until that point?
For example, someone said the minimum effective dose for EQ is 400mg/week, so adding 100/week would do nothing? Or even 50? That doesn't make sense to me

There is no sense in it.
To see the results of a guy like Cuz I have to run 3x what he does.

Minimal
Optimal
Overkill

All individual specific and all will be influenced by the idividuals protocols and genetics.

Opinion as always.

Kind of like how some guys cant handle estrogen sides of trt dose and guys like me can shoot 5gs a week and be ok.

[Obs]

Who would look at a 120lb guys and say, "You need the same dose as roelly winklaar to notice it."


Nay...
Too many differing variables to say that.

Proper protocols must be learned and achieved through trial and error by the individual, bearing in mind... Sssss... Ssscii... Sss... Science.

[Windex]

lots of variables. Also depends on where the person is coming from.

Someone with low T that does 16 weeks of 350-400mg Test is going to have improvement. Someone whose been on 200mg Test for years of HRT will get nothing from the same 350mg Test.

300mg of Tren is a lot of horsepower for the regular person who cycles. For me its barely a speed bump because I use to cruise on Tren with HRT.

[balance]

Something I noticed not too long ago it seems as though guys in their 40s and upwards looking to add muscle mass they have never before had tend to need substantially higher doses than whipper snapper 20 year olds. It’s seams as though the old timers (like myself) bodies want to fight every which way to hold that 40 year homeostasis muscle mass.




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[GearHeaded]

great topic holdmybeer !

in bodybuilding , the 'minimum effective dose' is the dose needed to get super compensating effects . being we are using AAS for physique enhancement and not for medical purposes, we are after the super compensation effects that AAS give at certain levels.

eg. Testosterone. 200mg per week does exactly what its supposed to do at that dose. it checks off all the boxes in regards to what test is supposed to do.
the only box thats not checked off with that dose is the supra physiological super compensation box . your not going to get 10,000 ng/dl blood serum levels of test at that low of a dose, your then not going to get the super compensation effect of above "natural" levels of estrogen (which then create higher levels of IGF), your not going to get super natural ability to load and store a ton more glycogen in muscle cells, an above normal increase in blood volume and RBC production, a super natural rate of protein turnover and synthesis , etc. etc..

basically , there is a point at which AAS can "turn on magic switches'' in the body. in bodybuilding, thats what we are after. we are trying to turn on these switches to create a supraphysiolgoical un natural effect in the body.

the medical dosages of AAS do exactly what they are supposed to do. they work for those purposes.. bodybuilding is extreme an we are looking for extreme effects and and so our minimum effective dose is at a much different level .

even within sports performance the dosages and applications are much different.. a pro cyclist is only looking for an increase in performance from AAS , where again a bodybuilder is looking for extreme supraphysiogical and super compensating effects from AAS.
a pro cyclist only needs 200mg of Test and 30mg of Var .. a pro bodybuilder may do 2000mg of test and 100mg of var.



so. the minimum effective dose in bodybuilding is the dose needed to create that supraphysiological effect we are after. again, it takes a certain dose to turn on and activate these "magic switches" in the body ("magic switches" is a ridiculous statement ,, but you all get my point I'm sure)..


another example -- 2 shots of whisky may be the minimum effective dose to take the edge off of a bad day, or to unwind and celebrate with friends. BUT if your after that minimum effective dose needed to turn on the "crazy switch'' and get shit faced drunk and do stupid shit that you won't remember ,, then you may need 15 shots of whisky.

so the minimum effective dose is definitely context and goal dependent..


in bodybuilding those dosages are going to look much different.

200mg of EQ actually works just fine on a 800 pound horse (to help heal him and increase his food efficiency when sick). but may not be a minimum effective dose at all for a 250 pound guy trying to build 50 pounds of muscle.. that "super compensating" dose may be closer to 600+ mg . even though 200mg is still going to 'work' , its just not going to work in the same manner as 600mg (again that 600mg range may be whats needed to turn on those "magic switches'').

[GearHeaded]

to further explain ... "Dosages" themselves are what makes the characteristics of a drug .

you do know that Cyanide is not poisonous, correct ? its only poisonous at a certain dose . the dosage dictates the poison.
water is also not "poisonous" , but if you consume too much all at once you'll die.


so drugs , chemical compounds, can take on different characteristics at different dosages.

i'l use the whisky example again..

if aliens came down and observed a man drinking 2 shots of whisky and how that may positively effect him and put him in a good mood and relax him..
then observed another man drinking 20 shots of the exact same whisky, and how terrible the effects are on this man. the aliens may think they are taking 2 totally separate drugs . but they are not. they are taking the same exact thing . its just the dosage dictates the charanctiersitics and effects a drug can have.


Same with AAS.
10mg of Dbol per day pre workout acts like a totally different drug then 100mg of Dbol daily. the 10mg simply gives positive mental effects and a little bit of glycogen loading during a workout. the 100mg per day suddenly turns on different mechanisms of action in the body that have much more supraphysiological effects

[i_SLAM_cougars]

to further explain ... "Dosages" themselves are what makes the characteristics of a drug .

you do know that Cyanide is not poisonous, correct ? its only poisonous at a certain dose . the dosage dictates the poison.
water is also not "poisonous" , but if you consume too much all at once you'll die.


so drugs , chemical compounds, can take on different characteristics at different dosages.

i'l use the whisky example again..

if aliens came down and observed a man drinking 2 shots of whisky and how that may positively effect him and put him in a good mood and relax him..
then observed another man drinking 20 shots of the exact same whisky, and how terrible the effects are on this man. the aliens may think they are taking 2 totally separate drugs . but they are not. they are taking the same exact thing . its just the dosage dictates the charanctiersitics and effects a drug can have.


Same with AAS.
10mg of Dbol per day pre workout acts like a totally different drug then 100mg of Dbol daily. the 10mg simply gives positive mental effects and a little bit of glycogen loading during a workout. the 100mg per day suddenly turns on different mechanisms of action in the body that have much more supraphysiological effects

So how much of any given compound would you consider the minimum effective dose (for bodybuilding purposes)? And the maximum that someone should take?

[GearHeaded]

So how much of any given compound would you consider the minimum effective dose (for bodybuilding purposes)? And the maximum that someone should take?

lots of variables here . depends on the person, cycle experience, weight/stats, etc.. so I could only give rough generalities.

but I've went on record on this forum several times stating , for example, that Test is not really all that anabolic until you get to the 800-1500mg a week range. thats where the magic happens (ie, for test only cycles)..
a serious bodybuilder messing around with 400mg per week test only cycles is wasting his time, imo

for other compounds, just real basic generalities here
- Dbol - 40-100mg per day
- Deca - 350-500mg per week
- EQ - 500+mg per week (unless you get super high quality directly from a vet clinic, then 350+)
- Mast 400mg
- Primo 400mg
- Tbol 50mg
- Var 30-70mg
- Anadrol 50mg
- Superdrol 20mg
- Halo 10+mg
- Tren ace 150mg
- Tren E 350mg

these are just some random numbers . just numbers I've seen work for the super compensating effect I spoke about. of course its really going to depend on your total stack design.
eg., 500mg of test may be fine, not as a stand alone but when stacked with 600mg of deca and 100mg of Dbol.. if I were to run test on a blast as a main compound though I'd hit at least a gram .
50mg of anadrol works great and you can still run 20mg of Dbol pre workout.. however if Anadrol is your main compound your trying to grow from you may want to run 100

so dosage depends a lot on the overall stack/cycle design

[GearHeaded]

So how much of any given compound would you consider the minimum effective dose (for bodybuilding purposes)? And the maximum that someone should take?

as for "maximum dose" , thats an even harder question to answer..

for me , I can handle 1 gram of Tren ace for about 3 weeks and I'm done.. however I could probably cruise on 350 for most the year. where as some guys can't barely tolerate the 350

for some guys 50mg of Anadrol kills their appetite and they can't go more then 2 weeks on it.. for other guys they run 100mg for months on end.


then of course there is the blood work factor . perhaps you feel great on 50mg of Var and can run that for months with great results and no negative side effects.. BUT its killing your HDL cholesterol . so even though you feel great, you may not tolerate that dose as well as you may think (of course maybe you just need to up your test and get more estrogen conversion to increase HDL when you run Var)


for some guys the limiting dose factor is simply a matter of how much oil they can fit into the syringe and various muscle to inject it all in

[HoldMyBeer]

Im still curious though. What if you ran:
200 test c
100 dhb
200 deca
100 primo
250 eq
50 tren e
100 mast e
etc etc
lets say they total 1.5g. But each compound is run below the amount that gives super compensating effects. Would there be less results running than, than say, 200 test and 1300 deca?

[GearHeaded]

Im still curious though. What if you ran:
200 test c
100 dhb
200 deca
100 primo
250 eq
50 tren e
100 mast e
etc etc
lets say they total 1.5g. But each compound is run below the amount that gives super compensating effects. Would there be less results running than, than say, 200 test and 1300 deca?

well what if I take
1 shot of rum
1 shot of vodka
2 shots of whisky
1 beer
2 shots of tequilla
2 glasses of wine

would I be just as F'd up as if I just took 10 shots of pure whisky .

idk, shit lets experiment . I've got the whisky, who is bringing the vodka, rum, beer and tequila

[GearHeaded]

seriously though. when I build cycle stacks , I take the ENTIRE androgenic or anabolic load of all compounds combined , not just one compound.

so when I ran 2000mg of test with 1000mg of tren and 500mg of Mast . my TOTAL androgenic load for that cycle was 7,500mg per week (basically equal to taking 7,500mg of just test per week).

the reason I don't base it on each individual compound is just like the alcohol example I gave . they are all still alcohol. does not matter that one is rum and one is whisky, they can have a cumulative effect.

I can get 600mg per week of test effects with only running 100mg of test per week (as long as I make up that difference with 500mg of similar AAS).. in fact I may get even better effects.

you may get way more blasted taking 10 shots of 10 different types of alcohol, then you would just taking 10 shots of one kind.

you can get a cumulative exaggerated effect actually -- where 1+1 = 5 , instead of 2

thats the beauty of stacking

[GearHeaded]

something to keep in mind that most guys don't realize .. when an AAS binds to a receptor and transcribes DNA to a cell to up regulate muscle building, it doesn't just stay permanently stuck to that one receptor . no , it transcribes all the information (like a computer chip download) and then it moves on to a new receptor and transcribes ALL the information to that cells as well , then it moves on again and again.

so by adding other compounds into the mix, your NOT competing for receptors (like bro science often tells us), your simply rotating compounds and every compound is "taking turns" and relaying its own unique set of muscle building DNA to different cells

again, AAS isn't competing for receptors. you don't take Tren and think geesh I wonder if thats going to out power the Anavar and my Var will not be doing anything,
no. its like an AAS gang bang. every AAS is going to get a chance to hit that receptors ass and even move on to more and more receptors