Esters do Have an Effect!!!

[Family_guy]

So I know the prevailing “wisdom” is that an Ester is just an ester and it has no effect to what the compound wil actually do in your system. For example guys always say that Test Prop won’t cause and difference in aromatization or water retention vs Test Cyp. But I would like to challenge that idea that an Ester is just an Ester and it has absolutely no effect on the action of the drug itself.

My first evidence would be another totally different pharmaceutical. Morphine Sulfate vs Morphine Hydrochloride. Both are just morphine bonded to a different salt. But when you look at the effects of IV sulfate vs hydrochloride it’s dramatic. Sulfate is known for causing terrible pins and needles while hydrochloride doesn’t do that to nearly the same degree(I know this from medical literature and personal experience). Well they’re both just morphine right? The body just breaks it down and removes the salt it’s attached to and your left with the morphine base(same as your body cleaving the Ester from Testosterone to get the active Testosterone base in your body.)

Second but if evidence it anecdotal but still relevant. You always hear guys saying the shorter ester Test don’t cause as much water retention vs longer ones. Even Balance did and experiment to see if Prop would cause less water retention. He said it was noticeably different vs longer esters. Now everyone wants to always jumps guys asses for claiming there’s any difference because “AN ESTER IS JUST AN ESTER!!!” Right??

This is based off my own thoughts not science on This last point here. So why wouldn’t Test suspension have a very different effect in the body vs a longer Ester? Just based off the peaks and valleys you know that side effects go up right? Well why is that? Why would not having stable hormone levels cause more side effects? I believe it’s due to your body ramping up everything while your levels are way up then ramping back down as they fall. So wouldn’t it follow that a longer Ester would by definition have a different course of effects in the body?

Anyways guys give me your thoughts. I really want to challenge the status quo on this.

[< <Samson> >]

Tren E was the 1st compound to cause the sprout of my bitch tits - and every flare up ever since - yet, Ace did nothing in that dept

[Obs]

So I know the prevailing “wisdom” is that an Ester is just an ester and it has no effect to what the compound wil actually do in your system. For example guys always say that Test Prop won’t cause and difference in aromatization or water retention vs Test Cyp. But I would like to challenge that idea that an Ester is just an Ester and it has absolutely no effect on the action of the drug itself.

My first evidence would be another totally different pharmaceutical. Morphine Sulfate vs Morphine Hydrochloride. Both are just morphine bonded to a different salt. But when you look at the effects of IV sulfate vs hydrochloride it’s dramatic. Sulfate is known for causing terrible pins and needles while hydrochloride doesn’t do that to nearly the same degree(I know this from medical literature and personal experience). Well they’re both just morphine right? The body just breaks it down and removes the salt it’s attached to and your left with the morphine base(same as your body cleaving the Ester from Testosterone to get the active Testosterone base in your body.)

Second but if evidence it anecdotal but still relevant. You always hear guys saying the shorter ester Test don’t cause as much water retention vs longer ones. Even Balance did and experiment to see if Prop would cause less water retention. He said it was noticeably different vs longer esters. Now everyone wants to always jumps guys asses for claiming there’s any difference because “AN ESTER IS JUST AN ESTER!!!” Right??

This is based off my own thoughts not science on This last point here. So why wouldn’t Test suspension have a very different effect in the body vs a longer Ester? Just based off the peaks and valleys you know that side effects go up right? Well why is that? Why would not having stable hormone levels cause more side effects? I believe it’s due to your body ramping up everything while your levels are way up then ramping back down as they fall. So wouldn’t it follow that a longer Ester would by definition have a different course of effects in the body?

Anyways guys give me your thoughts. I really want to challenge the status quo on this.

Sulfates are acid soluable and hydrochlorides are water soluable.

The steroid esters do not work like that.
The are absorbed in the same manner just at different rates.

The longer the ester though the less free equivalent it has per mg.

The absorption only happens as the drug is stripped of its ester. The ester is useless as anything other than a time release.

Like the coating on adderall balls in their capsule.
You gotta crunch them up and snort them if you want it now.

If you swallow them little timmys focalin wont hit you for hours and it dries your poop if you eat too many.

[Family_guy]

Sulfates are acid soluable and hydrochlorides are water soluable.

The steroid esters do not work like that.
The are absorbed in the same manner just at different rates.

The longer the ester though the less free equivalent it has per mg.

Actually morphine sulfate and hydrochloride both have a solubility of 10.2mg/ml in water. That’s a big reason why they’re bonded to a salt to begin with. The free base form isn’t very soluble at all.

[Family_guy]

Tren E was the 1st compound to cause the sprout of my bitch tits - and every flare up ever since - yet, Ace did nothing in that dept

See agin that’s great anecdotal evidence of a difference between esters

[Obs]

Actually morphine sulfate and hydrochloride both have a solubility of 10.2mg/ml in water. That’s a big reason why they’re bonded to a salt to begin with. The free base form isn’t very soluble at all.

They are bound to the salt which is sulfate and hcl.

They are soluable entirely differently by action.
This link is a pdf and I did say that entirely wrong.

Sulfates are water soluable and highly absorbable in the presemce of ethanol and certain acids. Hcl is not phased by acids and is not readily seperated by ethanol

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sUU6NYJgpO-_Wr

They perform entirely differently in terms of release from their salts. Same drug different salt.

[Family_guy]

So upon some further research the main difference between “pharmaceutical salts” (sulfate, hydrochloride, etc) and esters is that salts are bonded ionically while esters are bonded covalently. Which means that esters are bonded much “stronger” and they become technically a prodrug to the parent compound since it’s not active biologically until the Ester is cleaved. Where as salts are not prodrugs usually. At least that’s what I was just reading. So anyways maybe my first point isn’t correct scientifically but I know there’s still a ton of anecdotal evidence saying there is a different between esters.

Note-there is a significant difference between effects of morphine sulfate and morphine hydrochloride but maybe it’s not the same as comparing Test Prop vs Cyp for example. Maybe someone with more chemistry knowledge than I could explain the difference better

[Obs]

So upon some further research the main difference between “pharmaceutical salts” (sulfate, hydrochloride, etc) and esters is that salts are bonded ionically while esters are bonded covalently. Which means that esters are bonded much “stronger” and they become technically a prodrug to the parent compound since it’s not active biologically until the Ester is cleaved. Where as salts are not prodrugs usually. At least that’s what I was just reading. So anyways maybe my first point isn’t correct scientifically but I know there’s still a ton of anecdotal evidence saying there is a different between esters.

I just said all tgat ya cunt

[Family_guy]

I just said all tgat ya cunt

Shut up! Lmao

[Family_guy]

I just said all tgat ya cunt

That doesn’t change the fact that different esters do have different effects. I should have put a poll on this thread

[Obs]

Jesus I hope you arent reading all that pdf file...

I got bored at the fouth sentence and skimmed.

Drugs.... Intestinal acids.... Ethanol... Increase soluability...

Here you go familyguy... Here you go sir, you are welcome.

[Obs]

That doesn’t change the fact that different esters do have different effects. I should have put a poll on this thread

Mmmmm possibly because people dont know how to dose them according to their half life so that longer esters begin to build up?

They all taste the same to me.

[Family_guy]

Jesus I hope you arent reading all that pdf file...

I got bored at the fouth sentence and skimmed.

Drugs.... Intestinal acids.... Ethanol... Increase soluability...

Here you go familyguy... Here you go sir, you are welcome.

Fuck no I didn’t read any of it. I looked at it and was like no it didn’t even seem like exactly what we were talking about

[Obs]

Aw shit its another poll...

Which would you prefer I choose?
I dont see asshole on the list...

[Family_guy]

Mmmmm possibly because people dont know how to dose them according to their half life so that longer esters begin to build up?

They all taste the same to me.

Vote then mother fugger!

[Obs]

Fuck no I didn’t read any of it. I looked at it and was like no it didn’t even seem like exactly what we were talking about

It was.
I was trying to get it through yer head that sulfates break down more readily because the are affected by water and acids of the body whereas hcl is mostly just affected by water.

I was also trying to Shut you up with reading.

If you disprove something my mind thinks it already knows for a fact I could die.

[Family_guy]

Do you see the poll? I added it

[Obs]

Do you see the poll? I added it

Yes.
I dont see anasshole button though

[Family_guy]

Yes.
I dont see anasshole button though

Don’t be like that. I wouldn’t say your an asshole

[Obs]

Don’t be like that. I wouldn’t say your an asshole

You are too kind.

[Family_guy]

You are too kind.

Thanks for voting asshole

[Obs]

Thanks for voting asshole

Thats what brothers are for.

Last time I voted we got trump...
Just sayin

[Family_guy]

Thats what brothers are for.

Last time I voted we got trump...
Just sayin

Lmao

[The God Himself]

So upon some further research the main difference between “pharmaceutical salts” (sulfate, hydrochloride, etc) and esters is that salts are bonded ionically while esters are bonded covalently. Which means that esters are bonded much “stronger” and they become technically a prodrug to the parent compound since it’s not active biologically until the Ester is cleaved. Where as salts are not prodrugs usually. At least that’s what I was just reading. So anyways maybe my first point isn’t correct scientifically but I know there’s still a ton of anecdotal evidence saying there is a different between esters.

Note-there is a significant difference between effects of morphine sulfate and morphine hydrochloride but maybe it’s not the same as comparing Test Prop vs Cyp for example. Maybe someone with more chemistry knowledge than I could explain the difference better

Ionic bonds are much stronger than covalent bonds. But the ionic bond here is between the atoms that make the salt, not between salt and drug. When you connect an alcohol with an acid you get esters.
Back to the topic, I think its all about injection frequency. A long ester pinned ED has much stabler blood levels compared to short ester pinned ED. I think SHBG levels play a role here.

[HoldMyBeer]

Yeah... People say that.... But more experience BBers and coaches say otherwise
Contest prep coaches often advice mast prop over enth because they think prop give a different look
There's the classic npp vs deca argument
Then, water retention aside, some people respond to test p vs e vs c better.
Idk if the process of bonding to those esters, idk if it's the difference in the weight per mg, that's way beyond my knowledge. Science can explain it, they just haven't looked into it! But something's there.
Btw OP, you're not allowed to think that hard about morphine

[HoldMyBeer]

So upon some further research the main difference between “pharmaceutical salts” (sulfate, hydrochloride, etc) and esters is that salts are bonded ionically while esters are bonded covalently. Which means that esters are bonded much “stronger” and they become technically a prodrug to the parent compound since it’s not active biologically until the Ester is cleaved. Where as salts are not prodrugs usually. At least that’s what I was just reading. So anyways maybe my first point isn’t correct scientifically but I know there’s still a ton of anecdotal evidence saying there is a different between esters.

Note-there is a significant difference between effects of morphine sulfate and morphine hydrochloride but maybe it’s not the same as comparing Test Prop vs Cyp for example. Maybe someone with more chemistry knowledge than I could explain the difference better

NVM, TGH already said it. That's what I get for not reading all the replies first

[GearHeaded]

at the end of the day, when a steroid is cleaved from its ester and it attaches itself to an androgen receptor, its communicating the exact same DNA/information to the cell no matter if it was cleaved to a long ester or a short ester. test p and test e transcribe the exact same genetic code to cells, at this point there is not a difference between esters.

of course this does not mean different esters may not effect you differently. because there are still things to consider like absorption rates, blood serum levels, etc.. that all have a degree of effect. eg., 1000mg per week of test p is a much bigger dose then 1000mg of test cyp . its not necessarily the ester itself causing different effects, its the dosage.

heck a AAS or even a drug can have much different effects on the body based on the DOSAGE . dosage is the main difference between esters.

for example - take 2 shot of whisky and you feel one way .. take 20 shots of the exact same whisky and your going to feel an entirely different way.

OR even dosage timing . take 5 shots of whisky over 5 hours and you feel one way,, take 5 shots of whisky in 5 minutes and you feel a much different way.

same with AAS and esters..
test is test at the cellular level. and whisky is whisky . its dosage and how fast it gets into the system that can make a difference.
again, 1000mg of test P is going to hit you much faster and at a much higher concentration and dosage then 1000mg of test cyp

[GearHeaded]

another way to think about esters is to think about a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. the peanut butter is the test and the jelly is the ester.. now no matter if you use grape jelly, strawberry jelly, raspberry jelly, etc.. at the end of the day the peanut butter is and always will still just be peanut butter.

[balance]

I can understand ester type likely has little impact with reference to anabolic properties and changes over a given amount of time. Example test C vs test P or npp vs deca on same active mg per mg dose over an extended period of time ( like growth experienced from a two month run of say 1 gram of each would likely be equivalent). However the question remains generally speaking test P and NPP will retain less water than test C and deca respectively. I know not everyone notices this but many folks do? Any theories as to why?


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[GearHeaded]

it depends on the drug.. but I think higher doses of androgens actually retain less water then lower dosages. and again ester can somewhat dictate the dosage (short esters = higher dose mg per mg then long esters). for a retentive based compound it does not take much of it to provide the water retention aspects of the drug . thats why low dosages and long ester test can easily give a bit of water retention. but when you go to short esters and higher Mg per Mg dosages you get more exaggerated androgenic effects from the drug (and androgens and their effects actually mitigate water retention to a degree).

test prop retains less water then test e , because test prop is more androgenic mg per mg then test e. the higher androgen load equates to less water retention

now with things like deca /npp , this is not relevant as that is not an androgen . from my experience its pretty much equally 'retentive' no matter the ester or dosage really. but thats why you take deca, you want the retentive aspects to help you grow.


no science.. just thinking out loud here

[Family_guy]

Yeah... People say that.... But more experience BBers and coaches say otherwise
Contest prep coaches often advice mast prop over enth because they think prop give a different look
There's the classic npp vs deca argument
Then, water retention aside, some people respond to test p vs e vs c better.
Idk if the process of bonding to those esters, idk if it's the difference in the weight per mg, that's way beyond my knowledge. Science can explain it, they just haven't looked into it! But something's there.
Btw OP, you're not allowed to think that hard about morphine

Lol about the morphine! It was something I could relate to from my past lol

[Family_guy]

it depends on the drug.. but I think higher doses of androgens actually retain less water then lower dosages. and again ester can somewhat dictate the dosage (short esters = higher dose mg per mg then long esters). for a retentive based compound it does not take much of it to provide the water retention aspects of the drug . thats why low dosages and long ester test can easily give a bit of water retention. but when you go to short esters and higher Mg per Mg dosages you get more exaggerated androgenic effects from the drug (and androgens and their effects actually mitigate water retention to a degree).

test prop retains less water then test e , because test prop is more androgenic mg per mg then test e. the higher androgen load equates to less water retention

now with things like deca /npp , this is not relevant as that is not an androgen . from my experience its pretty much equally 'retentive' no matter the ester or dosage really. but thats why you take deca, you want the retentive aspects to help you grow.


no science.. just thinking out loud here

I’m not sure if I buy that explanation. It could very well be right though. Obviously you know a lot more about this than I do lol!

[charger69]

That doesn’t change the fact that different esters do have different effects. I should have put a poll on this thread

Who told you they do t have any effect? Your dog? Obviously not someone who takes AAS. LOL


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[charger69]

Ionic bonds are much stronger than covalent bonds. But the ionic bond here is between the atoms that make the salt, not between salt and drug. When you connect an alcohol with an acid you get esters.
Back to the topic, I think its all about injection frequency. A long ester pinned ED has much stabler blood levels compared to short ester pinned ED. I think SHBG levels play a role here.

Thank you! I think FG had a brain fart. I have mentioned on numerous occasions that I inject long esthers daily for that reason.


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[GearHeaded]

I’m not sure if I buy that explanation. It could very well be right though. Obviously you know a lot more about this than I do lol!

well like I said in my post , no science to back anything up on this one , so there is nothing to "buy" .. but just from personal experience and working with other guys , a simple 300mg of test can give some water retention issues , it doesn't take much to get that effect . but if you switch to a more "potent" ester or ramp your dosage up to like 1000+mg, you suddenly start getting a lot more androgenic effects. and androgens mitigate water retention (which is why you only run androgens just before a bodybuilding contest).

this is person dependent of course. 300mg of test per week is NOT all that androgenic . but again it does not take much to be estrogenic and provide water retention.. 1000mg of test per week however is pretty damn androgenic and thats the level you start getting those super compensating androgenic effects

1000mg of test prop per week is equal to 920mg of test and has an androgenic load of 920..
1000mg of test e per week is equal to about 630mg of test per week and has an androgenic load of 630

so even though your weekly dose looks the same on paper . and even though you have the initial water retention that comes with just a small dose of test in the first place ,, the test prop cycle is actually much more androgenic, and being so much more androgenic means it can mitigate some of the water retention.


I know this sounds counter intuitive .. take a higher dose of a compound that promotes water retention to get less water retention. but its just a personal observation. test e at low dose promotes water retention in guys that are prone to it ,, test prop at high dosages promotes a lot more androgenic effects

[GearHeaded]

when I decided to run 2000mg of test per week (a big chunk of that being test prop) . I seemed to get drier and harder running that then when running 500mg of test e on a cruise .. now granite, I was on tren and mast , but shit I'm always on tren and mast

[Family_guy]

well like I said in my post , no science to back anything up on this one , so there is nothing to "buy" .. but just from personal experience and working with other guys , a simple 300mg of test can give some water retention issues , it doesn't take much to get that effect . but if you switch to a more "potent" ester or ramp your dosage up to like 1000+mg, you suddenly start getting a lot more androgenic effects. and androgens mitigate water retention (which is why you only run androgens just before a bodybuilding contest).

this is person dependent of course. 300mg of test per week is NOT all that androgenic . but again it does not take much to be estrogenic and provide water retention.. 1000mg of test per week however is pretty damn androgenic and thats the level you start getting those super compensating androgenic effects

1000mg of test prop per week is equal to 920mg of test and has an androgenic load of 920..
1000mg of test e per week is equal to about 630mg of test per week and has an androgenic load of 630

so even though your weekly dose looks the same on paper . and even though you have the initial water retention that comes with just a small dose of test in the first place ,, the test prop cycle is actually much more androgenic, and being so much more androgenic means it can mitigate some of the water retention.


I know this sounds counter intuitive .. take a higher dose of a compound that promotes water retention to get less water retention. but its just a personal observation. test e at low dose promotes water retention in guys that are prone to it ,, test prop at high dosages promotes a lot more androgenic effects

Wow when you look at it like that on doses of 1g+ it’s crazy how much more compound there is in the shorter Ester Prop. After reading that I it makes more sense that it’s more to do with the total amount of active test and how different doses have different effects another awesome discussion.

I think I’m going to have to do some experiments on myself before I come to a conclusion on this

[Family_guy]

Hey Redz you voted that it’s a major difference. I’d love to hear your thoughts on this and why you feel that way

[Family_guy]

Ok so I found something very interesting. There’s a compound call Nandrolone Sulfate. It’s used in ophthalmology in Europe. It’s literally Nandrolone bound to Sulfate. They call this an Ester on the medical site I was reading about it on. But I thought that was different than an Ester. So anyone have anything to add on this?

[The Deadlifting Dog]

1000mg of test prop per week is equal to 920mg of test and has an androgenic load of 920.. 837
1000mg of test e per week is equal to about 630mg of test per week and has an androgenic load of 630 699

your numbers are a little off....
see above in red



or if you want to do the math.....
look at table 2.1

http://www.swgdrug.org/Monographs/TE...AND_ESTERS.pdf