Tren/test/win cycle

**roid_rage** · 10-02-2019, 12:53 PM

Hello guys, im just coming back from a year off (being training still but mostly doing jiu jitsu type of training) now im taking a time off, never been on tren , cause of the cardio issues tren supposed to give you, dont want that while doing bjj... so this is going to be my 6th cycle or so, cant remember, so I figured wtf Ill try some tren...

cycle is going to look like this..

1-12 test e 500 mg/ew
1-10 tren e 250 mg (cant decide if I should start with 200 or 300)/ew
10-14 winny 50 mg eod
3-14 hcg 500 ui e3d
2-12 0.25 cabergoline e5d (im quite senstive to progestins, deca fucked me up even in low dose, so im not taking a chance this time)
2-14 adex 0.5 eod

PCT
1-4 Nolva 20 mg
1-3 Clomid 100 mg

any suggestions? would tren be too low at 200? 250 would it be right?

**redz** · 10-02-2019, 01:37 PM

I’ve never tried tren that low I can’t comment but I’m sure you will get benefits from 200 or 250. I’m running 550 Tren E 600 Deca right now I’m in beast mode.

**GearHeaded** · 10-02-2019, 01:49 PM

thats a whole heck of a lot of Arimidex for such a low dose of Test . most guys don't need an AI at all with only 500mg of test. plus, as long as your not estrogen sensitive, tren works a lot better for muscle growth having higher levels of Estrogen (theres a reason why Cattle get injected with Tren and a crap ton of estrogen at the same time). I personally will run up 2g of test and 1g of tren without an AI (well I mean I don't run an AI ever, but just putting it in perspective)

Tren Ace at 200-300mg works just fine .. However with Tren E , I'd be bumping your dosage up a bit. actually I'd be running Tren ace on a first run of Tren to begin with

**roid_rage** · 10-02-2019, 02:02 PM

hi man thanks for your reply...

Im very e2 sensitive... Ive had problems with 400mg test at .25 e3d... had to bump the dosage, things got back to normal... Ill manage my e2 levels through blood work.. I had some limp dick due to high estrogen in the past (and I mean numb dick, not just meh I dont want to fuck) I will try 0.5 e3d and see how goes from there...

**jstone** · 10-02-2019, 04:25 PM

If your so sensitive to e2, and pregestins why run the cycle at all. Change it up so your not taking so many ancillary drugs. Run low test, and add in something like primo, and masteron . There's many ways to accomplish what you want without using compounds that cause you issues.

**Wannabhuge14** · 10-02-2019, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by jstone

If your so sensitive to e2, and pregestins why run the cycle at all. Change it up so your not taking so many ancillary drugs. Run low test, and add in something like primo, and masteron. There's many ways to accomplish what you want without using compounds that cause you issues.

^This. There are a variety of compounds that won’t have any impact on e2 whatsoever. In fact, most don’t do I’d go a different route if you’re really that sensitive.

**GearHeaded** · 10-02-2019, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by roid_rage

hi man thanks for your reply...

Im very e2 sensitive... Ive had problems with 400mg test at .25 e3d... had to bump the dosage, things got back to normal... Ill manage my e2 levels through blood work.. I had some limp dick due to high estrogen in the past (and I mean numb dick, not just meh I dont want to fuck) I will try 0.5 e3d and see how goes from there...

well then Tren is probably a bad choice if your that E sensitive . Tren is a progestin (its an estrogen sensitizer , it makes you even more estrogen sensitive). as a progestin Tren interacts with Progesterone receptors, when this happens you then become more sensitive to estrogen . and an AI can't help , because its not a result of aromatization, its via the progestin feed back loop that estrogenic effects happen from tren (which an AI will do nothing for)

for guys that are not estrogen sensitive though, these things can have positive effects and the estrogen sensitivity increase that tren gives will lead to more gains (for example, Tren elevates IGF levels via estrogen sensitivity in the liver)

but as mentioned, theres a 100 different stacks you can run that are not estrogenic at all

**roid_rage** · 10-02-2019, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

well then Tren is probably a bad choice if your that E sensitive . Tren is a progestin (its an estrogen sensitizer , it makes you even more estrogen sensitive). as a progestin Tren interacts with Progesterone receptors, when this happens you then become more sensitive to estrogen . and an AI can't help , because its not a result of aromatization, its via the progestin feed back loop that estrogenic effects happen from tren (which an AI will do nothing for)

for guys that are not estrogen sensitive though, these things can have positive effects and the estrogen sensitivity increase that tren gives will lead to more gains (for example, Tren elevates IGF levels via estrogen sensitivity in the liver)

but as mentioned, theres a 100 different stacks you can run that are not estrogenic at all

please help me with this...

estrogenic side effects ocuur due to well, aromatizaion, tren is androgenic as fuck, but it does not aromatize, test does, but as far as I know, an aI should take care of that . Tren problems as a 19-nor should cone due to it being a progestin, I always (and man Ive been around for some time) thought most of was cause to prolactine increase. I know it increses estrogenic side effecs of drugs that do aromatize, but again, estrogens are estroges, and as far as I know, they need to come via aromatizaon of androgens. IF estrogens arent coming from the conversio of androges to estrogens via the ezyme aromatase, where are they coming from?

Im just having a discussion by the way, its intersting becasue I never heard people that are sensitive to e2 to drop cycles because of it, arimidex was for that...

**GearHeaded** · 10-02-2019, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by roid_rage

please help me with this...

estrogenic side effects ocuur due to well, aromatizaion, tren is androgenic as fuck, but it does not aromatize, test does, but as far as I know, an aI should take care of that . Tren problems as a 19-nor should cone due to it being a progestin, I always (and man Ive been around for some time) thought most of was cause to prolactine increase. I know it increses estrogenic side effecs of drugs that do aromatize, but again, estrogens are estroges, and as far as I know, they need to come via aromatizaon of androgens. IF estrogens arent coming from the conversio of androges to estrogens via the ezyme aromatase, where are they coming from?

Im just having a discussion by the way, its intersting becasue I never heard people that are sensitive to e2 to drop cycles because of it, arimidex was for that...

whats in bold is your main false premise ..

your other false premise (which is just an assumption on my part) is that you think elevated estrogen levels are somehow bad or illicit negative side effects. when in reality, for most guys, elevated estrogen is what you want while blasting a cycle and provide many anabolic benefits. which is why I personally have high estrogen phases for my cycles, and have plenty of clients purposely blast 1500mg of test, and Dbol , etc. with no AI's for the whole purpose of utilizing elevated estrogen levels to enhance growth factors during certain phases of a cycle.
^ this may be a bit of a rabbit trail and I digress from you main question .. we can get back to this if you like though.

so back to your main concern.

negative estrogen side effects do NOT occur simply because of aromatization or elevated E levels . they occur because of a host of other reasons.

as you stated , Tren does not aromatize and its very androgenic . so how the hell can a few select guys end up getting estrogen sides from a drug that does not convert to estrogen (even running tren only cycles with no test).. well because Tren is a progestin. as I stated in the last post. if progesterone receptors are stimulated (by the Tren, but the progestin receptors don't know its 'tren', it just see it as progesterone itself) then that is going to result in a super sensitization to estrogen. even if your estrogen levels are normal or low. the small amount of estrogen you do have is now "super estrogen" just because of the stimulation of the progesterone receptors from the Tren acting on them.

you've probably heard of the bull shit bro science terms such as "tren gyno" or "prolactin induced gyno" ... ummm. well theres no such thing as these. there is only estrogen induce gyno. period. ""yeah but I got gyno on a tren only or deca only cycle with no test and my estrogen was low and I was even taking an AI ,, so the cause must of been Prolactin, right"". . . um no. heck get bloodwork, your prolactin probably wasn't even elevated.

the gyno was from estrogen, just like all gyno is (not prolactin) . even if your E levels were low or you were taking an AI .. the thing is the 19 nor acted as a progestin and activated progesterone receptors which then overly sensitized certain estrogen receptors in the body , like breast tissue, and made you overly sensitive to even the smallest amounts of estrogen.

thats how negative estrogen side effects can occur without aromatization ..

another example .
Anadrol . people consider it a 'wet' and estrogenic compound and there are cases of guys ending up with gyno after heavy use of it. yeah but wait, its a DHT derived steroid that does NOT aromatize into estrogen at all. how can this happen.
well because Anadrol has the ability all by itself to interact with the estrogen receptor as an actual estrogen.. no aromatization needed. which is also why its ridiculous to run an AI with Anardol (again there is no aromatization there is nothing an AI can block) . you would need a SERM, not an AI

anyhow, I can keep going. but this post is getting rather lengthy

**jstone** · 10-02-2019, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by roid_rage

please help me with this...

estrogenic side effects ocuur due to well, aromatizaion, tren is androgenic as fuck, but it does not aromatize, test does, but as far as I know, an aI should take care of that . Tren problems as a 19-nor should cone due to it being a progestin, I always (and man Ive been around for some time) thought most of was cause to prolactine increase. I know it increses estrogenic side effecs of drugs that do aromatize, but again, estrogens are estroges, and as far as I know, they need to come via aromatizaon of androgens. IF estrogens arent coming from the conversio of androges to estrogens via the ezyme aromatase, where are they coming from?

Im just having a discussion by the way, its intersting becasue I never heard people that are sensitive to e2 to drop cycles because of it, arimidex was for that...

It's not that the tren is causing a rise in estrogen, the progestin is making you more sensitive to the estrogen that's there. Why use AI or dopamine agonists when you dont have to. You can just use different compounds it's a backwards way of doing things when you add drugs to fight the side effects of other drugs, when you can just eliminate them completely by not using them.

**roid_rage** · 10-02-2019, 08:22 PM

But how am I going to get estrogenic effects If im using and AI, if I was using something like nolva to fight estrogens this makes sense to me, but an AI is previnting the aromatization, so I dont have enough estrongens to have sides...

an AI is a must, no other way for me, all of my cycles have testosterone as a base, if not the only choice left are dhts and 19-nors.. progestins fuck me up, and so thats left me with dht alone, wich will shut me down...

Things have chenged since I use to post a lot in this place.... it used to be test always, if im understanging you right, you are suggesting me to avoid androgenic drugs?

sorry for my english by the way, not my first lenguage...not trying to sound rude, just my lack of english skills probably are making me sound rude if I am doing it...

**GearHeaded** · 10-02-2019, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by roid_rage

But how am I going to get estrogenic effects If im using and AI,

an AI does NOT prevent estrogenic side effects . or progestin side effects that lead to estrogen sensitization.. an AI only does one simple (and often times useless) thing . it just limits aromatization. thats it. its an "aromatase inhibitor".

guys who are genetically pre-dsposed to getting gyno , get it no matter if they are taking AI's or not . AI's do not stop estrogenic effects. they only blunt an enzyme (ie, aromatase)

**roid_rage** · 10-02-2019, 08:32 PM

shit, your the first guy making sense to andarol gyno... most people a while ago on forums didnt just know how to explai why on fcuking earth was peoplel getting gyno from anadrol , since was a dht... now you cleared that to me...

on high e2, I just cant have it, im too sensitive. But something like 10 years ago, I sued the good ol serm combo nolva + provi to fight test cycles... then I switched to AIs, because well, low dose, but as I told you I had problems with 400 mg of test on .25 e3d, uped to .5 e3d and everything was checked.

I would love to read you some more about this stuff, thanks a lot for the inside man...

**roid_rage** · 10-02-2019, 08:36 PM

shouldnt adex avouid the convertion on a rate of 80% and letro something like 95 or something? that will litereally leave you with no estrogens...

my logic tells me this, all humans need estrogen, If I keep my estrogen between the normal range of my normal being (without aas) I shoudlt get any estrogenic sides. While on steroids , while is expected e2 to rise as you are getting androgens, its how much is your body able to hold withoyut suffering from e2 sides. I see your poitn, supressing e2 or not allowing it to go up will disminish muscle gain, which is the whole idea of using steroids, thats why pro body builders actually get gyno, not because they didnt know AI or SERMS existed, becasue they were tryoing to maxime muscle gain thus avoiding AI or SERMS all along...but Im not expecting to put 10k of muscles, I cant, im a grappler...

I have never gotten gyno though... the worst it happend to me was puffy nipples on 500 mg, went away as soon as I added nolva... oh and my dick going numb, which I took care upping the ai dose. I thought there was a relation between high stronge and high prolactin, because of the numbness, dont know If I was right, but upping the AI dosa certanly got rid of that problem, and that was on test alone.

anyways, you have conviced me to not take tren , to be for real, I dont even need it, just wanted to see what the hell was all the buzz about it.

swtiching to primo 400 mg instead.

**roid_rage** · 10-02-2019, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by GearHeaded

an AI does NOT prevent estrogenic side effects . or progestin side effects that lead to estrogen sensitization.. an AI only does one simple (and often times useless) thing . it just limits aromatization. thats it. its an "aromatase inhibitor".

guys who are genetically pre-dsposed to getting gyno , get it no matter if they are taking AI's or not . AI's do not stop estrogenic effects. they only blunt an enzyme (ie, aromatase)

shouldnt adex avouid the convertion on a rate of 80% and letro something like 95 or something? that will litereally leave you with no estrogens...

my logic tells me this, all humans need estrogen, If I keep my estrogen between the normal range of my normal being (without aas) I shoudlt get any estrogenic sides. While on steroids , while is expected e2 to rise as you are getting androgens, its how much is your body able to hold withoyut suffering from e2 sides. I see your poitn, supressing e2 or not allowing it to go up will disminish muscle gain, which is the whole idea of using steroids, thats why pro body builders actually get gyno, not because they didnt know AI or SERMS existed, becasue they were tryoing to maxime muscle gain thus avoiding AI or SERMS all along...but Im not expecting to put 10k of muscles, I cant, im a grappler...

I have never gotten gyno though... the worst it happend to me was puffy nipples on 500 mg, went away as soon as I added nolva... oh and my dick going numb, which I took care upping the ai dose. I thought there was a relation between high stronge and high prolactin, because of the numbness, dont know If I was right, but upping the AI dosa certanly got rid of that problem, and that was on test alone.

anyways, you have conviced me to not take tren , to be for real, I dont even need it, just wanted to see what the hell was all the buzz about it.

swtiching to primo 400 mg instead.

do you suggest the use of SERMS over AI?