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Thread: The fear of abnormal estrogen levels

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    JaneDoe is offline Banned
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    Talking The fear of abnormal estrogen levels

    What I noticed is that many guys still believe in trying to keep estrogen within normal parameters. Impossible Mission of the author (Tom Cruise)? Well, this way ..
    There is no way to keep E2 within the normal range, as we are steroid users .. This is something the experienced guys at the Forum have made me see ... High estrogen is not our enemy in the cycle, without them our gains are precarious , especially if we are in a muscle mass gain cycle ... .Let us realize that we take steroids for (PED'S), don't be afraid of what you hear saying that E2 high will get you cancer .. Anyway, you should know that High doses of steroids are not good for your health and if the future charges you will have to prepare to face the dark side of anabolic steroids ... this is our choice!
    Last edited by JaneDoe; 11-24-2019 at 10:31 PM.

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    The funny thing is, this isnít really new information in retrospect. Even reading texts from a decade or more ago, Iím seeing plenty of stuff on how holding estradiol down is not only going to limit your gains, but itís going to make the negative cardiovascular effects of AAS even worse, since youíre not getting the protective effects of estrogen on lipids.
    Why this is taking so long for this to work its way in is beyond me.
    We even have plenty of respected doctors in the HRT field talking about how crushing estrogen is killing the very guys that HRT is trying to help.

    It gets even worse when you start talking about supraphysiologic levels of AAS. Ever notice how the ones that aromatize the least are the hardest on your lipids?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    The funny thing is, this isn’t really new information in retrospect. Even reading texts from a decade or more ago, I’m seeing plenty of stuff on how holding estradiol down is not only going to limit your gains, but it’s going to make the negative cardiovascular effects of AAS even worse, since you’re not getting the protective effects of estrogen on lipids.
    Why this is taking so long for this to work its way in is beyond me.
    We even have plenty of respected doctors in the HRT field talking about how crushing estrogen is killing the very guys that HRT is trying to help.

    It gets even worse when you start talking about supraphysiologic levels of AAS. Ever notice how the ones that aromatize the least are the hardest on your lipids?
    You made primobolan feel very upset..
    Good point here, most of the heavy androgens fuck up the lipids.
    But I think what makes the difference is androgen/estrogen ratio. I had high estrogen and tried everything to reduce it, and know what, lowering estrogen didn't help me with my problems. Whenever I introduced some androgen load (high test?) to balance out my high (relative to lab references ofc) E2, I started feeling much better.
    Having high androgen load and low E2 isn't good either unless you know what you're doing, i.e. contest prep or cutting etc.
    Our body works best in homeostasis (or equilibrium so to speak) so avoiding fluctuations is a good thing to start with.
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    years ago estrogen was thought of as a bad 'female' hormone that was not good for men. little did they know that Estrogen is the hormone that controls/drives the male libido and is responsible for procreation (ie, the survival of our species) and as such is most definitely not a "bad female hormone"..

    Estrogen is actually so critical for male sexual function and procreation that the male body has built in systems to regulate procreation based solely on estrogen.

    think about it. where do we get our estrogen from. from Test aromatizing into estrogen. where is the Aromatization enzyme located. in fat cells. now why would it be located there?

    well in pretty much all mammal species, procreation is to occur during times of abundance and health , and procreation is supposed to stop in times of famine and ill health (if a mammal can't feed itself then surely it can't or shouldn't produce offspring that it needs to feed as well).

    this is exactly why our most important sexual hormone, Estrogen, is produced within fat cells. that way during times of extreme famine or starvation, our body fat levels drop down to low single digits and we are no longer producing estrogen. which means we are no longer able to sexually function or even have a sex drive or desire in the first place. low estrogen is = to famine, starvation, or ill health and thus no desire or ability to procreate.

    makes perfect sense biologically

    now why the heck do guys want to take AI's and crush their estrogen levels and put themselves into the same state that ill health and starvation puts you in , is beyond me.

    high levels of estrogen is akin to good health, sexual function, the ability to procreate, living in a time of abundance and thriving etc..

    edit - oh yeah and I almost forgot that not only is estrogen responsible for sexual function and promotes many good health benefits in the body , its also anabolic
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 11-25-2019 at 02:20 PM.
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    We have come to accept that estrogen isnít bad, but At what point is there too much estrogen?



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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    We have come to accept that estrogen isnít bad, but At what point is there too much estrogen?



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    Probably around the same place as too much test. ďIt depends on the personĒ is most likely the closest to the truth that weíll ever get. Iíve seen bloods of dudes with sensitive E2s of well over 150 with no real problems, and heard of guys growing a sexy set of tits at 50.
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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    We have come to accept that estrogen isn’t bad, but At what point is there too much estrogen?
    well this is going to depend on and correlate with Androgen levels . and its more about the duration then it is the actual elevated levels themselves .
    this is what I mean.

    having a total test levels of say 10,000 ng/dl is totally fine for a 6 week blast of test.. but its probably not healthy in the long term to have that high of levels 365 days per year. its not wither your levels are 2,000 ng/dl vs 20,000 ng/dl that matters , its the duration.
    same with estrogen.
    its totally fine for your E levels to be 20x the normal range for a 6 week blast. it dose't matter if your E2 is 90 or 300. its about duration and not the specific number itself, just like with androgens.

    this is another reason I promote and 'prescribe' phase cycling for most guys. phase cycling puts a check on duration. if we do a high estrogen blast, the estrogen level are supposed to sky rocket as much as we can, but the actual number does not matter , BUT I do keep a check on the duration and generally only do an estrogen blast phase for 6-8 weeks, then come off estrogenic compounds all together and sometimes may do an anti estrogen / anti cortisol phase.


    also why I have not gotten E2 levels checked on blood work in like 5+ years. the number is totally irrelevant to me. again its about duration. I'm not estrogen blasting all year long. just short 6 week or so blasts here and there followed by 'anabolic only' phases where estrogen drops back down.


    in regards to levels though , which again are not that important imo ,, the number one side effect of way too high of estrogen is the exact same side effect of way too high of androgen levels . anxiety. the problem is, your estrogen levels are likely high cause your androgen levels are also high . so you don't know if the anxiety is there because of high estrogen or high androgens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    Probably around the same place as too much test. “It depends on the person” is most likely the closest to the truth that we’ll ever get. I’ve seen bloods of dudes with sensitive E2s of well over 150 with no real problems, and heard of guys growing a sexy set of tits at 50.

    my last E2 blood work 5 years ago I was in the upper 200s . I felt great .. had a friend that got his E levels checked and they were in the 800s (I didn't even know that was possible).

    and yes your correct , guys can get gyno with normal E2 levels. gyno is a completely separate issue and is totally genetic dependent and not estrogen level dependent .
    these same gyno prone guys can run a Tren only cycle (which does not aromatize) and take an AI and crush their E2 levels and still end up getting gyno .
    if your genetically prone to gyno , you will get it using AAS no matter what you do
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 11-25-2019 at 03:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    my last E2 blood work 5 years ago I was in the upper 200s . I felt great .. had a friend that got his E levels checked and they were in the 800s (I didn't even know that was possible).

    and yes your correct , guys can get gyno with normal E2 levels. gyno is a completely separate issue and is totally genetic dependent and not estrogen level dependent .
    these same gyno prone guys can run a Tren only cycle (which does not aromatize) and take an AI and crush their E2 levels and still end up getting gyno .
    if your genetically prone to gyno , you will get it using AAS no matter what you do
    Thatís pretty much what I have heard from everyone reputable in the last few years. Interestingly, Jay Campbellís bout of gyno happened when he was on the same TRT regimen that he had been for years. Best he and his cadre of doctor friends can guess is that it was actually an oddball occurrence that was stress induced. If I remember correctly, it was around the time when he was dealing with his multi-million dollar divorce.

    Iím honestly going to laugh my ass off if it one day turns out that all of this stressing and worrying about gyno just makes it more likely to occur.

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    intersting tid bit -- back in the day before the combo of Nolva and Masteron was popular for gyno prevention/cure, guys used to run Halotestin . the reason being is that Halo is 8x + more androgenic then test with zero estrogenic attributes. its a pure androgen.
    even with E levels elevated, just by adding in such a strong androgen guys would reverse their onset of gyno.

    androgens play a huge role at preventing gyno. . Masteron, "mast" means "breast" is also very androgenic and part of the reason why it also prevents gyno.


    its interesting , you'll see some guys not get any gyno symptoms at all while on cycle . then 3 weeks post cycle they suddenly get a lump and their like 'how the fk this happen, I was fine on cycle' .. the reason this happens post cycle is because you no longer have exogenous androgens coming in, and your shut down and don't have endogenous androgens either . so your androgen levels drop off big time , but your E levels are still elevated from the cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    its interesting , you'll see some guys not get any gyno symptoms at all while on cycle . then 3 weeks post cycle they suddenly get a lump and their like 'how the fk this happen, I was fine on cycle' .. the reason this happens post cycle is because you no longer have exogenous androgens coming in, and your shut down and don't have endogenous androgens either . so your androgen levels drop off big time , but your E levels are still elevated from the cycle.
    Excellent topic
    This last tidbit brings me upon a question. Clearly from this example above (and other times like contest prep) when aromatizing compounds are ceased both estrogen and androgen loads diminish but at different rates. Just how much longer does the high estrogen environment tend to last? Also while itís possible to run labs indicating E2 to gauge where your levels are what about gauging androgen load, are there labs that can indicate this (or do we just know by feel, ie normal sleep, less aggravated by bad drivers)?


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    Quote Originally Posted by balance View Post
    Excellent topic
    This last tidbit brings me upon a question. Clearly from this example above (and other times like contest prep) when aromatizing compounds are ceased both estrogen and androgen loads diminish but at different rates. Just how much longer does the high estrogen environment tend to last? Also while it’s possible to run labs indicating E2 to gauge where your levels are what about gauging androgen load, are there labs that can indicate this (or do we just know by feel, ie normal sleep, less aggravated by bad drivers)?
    great questions and I wished I had a scientific answer to them . but all I got is anecdotal evidence and experience with myself and helping others.

    all I know from experience is that when Androgen load is cut off (and thus estrogen load is cut off with it) , androgen levels diminish quite rapidly (think if you were running test prop on cycle) but estrogen levels stay elevated for quite a bit longer. I don't know the answer as to what the rate actually is, I just know it happens this way.
    also, the longer your Estrogen levels stay elevated, the longer you will stay suppressed . as estrogen plays a key role in the HPTA. low estrogen levels is what tells your brain to tell your testes to produce Test (not low androgen levels). which is also why for guys doing PCT running things like AI's , Clomid and Nolva. the faster we get estrogen levels down, and blunt receptors in the body and the brain from estrogen, the quicker the brain will require a need for estrogen and start producing LH and ultimately restart test production

    also, from anecdotal evidence , we know estrogen sticks around a lot longer then androgens because of guys commonly experiencing "estrogen rebound" . as I touched on in a former post , after your cycle is often times when guys get negative estrogen side effects. they think they are getting 'estrogen rebound' and their E levels are getting higher. but truth is its just their androgen to estrogen ratios are now way off (cause androgens are dropping off but estrogen is sticking around).
    this is where for some guy it warrants running some Proviron immediately post cycle and going into PCT.. proviron is NOT an androgen in and of itself, but it will elevate your natural levels of androgens (namely DHT) by freeing it up from SHBG.


    again I don't know the numbers or facts of at which rate androgens diminish compared to estrogen . but estrogen does stick around a bit longer .. makes me think that maybe estrogen is the more important/needed hormone


    I don't know of any way to test androgen load. other then if you were only running Test, you can test for free test, total test, and DHT.. then of course you could compare Test and Estrogen levels/ratio .
    but for other androgens , like Mast, Tren , Halo, etc. that are all strong androgens in and of themselves, I know no way to test actual blood levels of androgens.


    I personally gauge 'androgen load' based on androgenic ratings of compounds I'm taking.
    eg. if I'm taking 1000mg of test, 500mg of Tren, 500mg of Mast , then I look up the androgenic rating of the compounds and total it based on dosage. so that cycle would carry an androgen load of 4000 .. also being I'm running a gram of test, my estrogen should be fairly elevated too.

    now if I was in contest prep and I wanted to skew that ratio somewhat to favor a much higher androgen load over estrogen, then I would run something like. 100mg test , 800mg tren, 600mg mast, 140mg Halo. that would carry an androgen load of like 5,900 , yet my estrogen would likely be low normal.
    doing something like that in contest prep a few weeks out is WAY better of an option then running AI's . that high of an androgen load with normal estrogen levels is going to make you very dry and hard and AI's not needed at all


    side note -- having a very high androgen load with very little estrogen load to offset it is where 'roid rage ' and 'tren aggression' 'tren insomnia' etc.. come from . if your androgen load is very high and your estrogen is low you will be a very agitated aggressive edgy individual . thats because the brain has androgen and estrogen receptors. they counter balance each other. having the brain all lit up with just androgens is going to make you aggressive and edgy. estrogen helps off set this .

    the reason why Tren has a bad rap for a lot of its negative side effects that are mainly mental , comes from guys running a lot of Tren and then running AI's with it. Tren does NOT convert to estrogen. the little bit of test they are running is not converting to estrogen either because of the AI . now their Androgen levels are off the charts and estrogen is crap .
    if you get negative mental sides from Tren . try running a good dose of test with some Dbol with your next Tren run (and of course no AI). the higher estrogen will balance you out.
    of course in contest prep , you just have to deal with being an asshole on Tren

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    years ago estrogen was thought of as a bad 'female' hormone that was not good for men. little did they know that Estrogen is the hormone that controls/drives the male libido and is responsible for procreation (ie, the survival of our species) and as such is most definitely not a "bad female hormone"..

    Estrogen is actually so critical for male sexual function and procreation that the male body has built in systems to regulate procreation based solely on estrogen.

    think about it. where do we get our estrogen from. from Test aromatizing into estrogen. where is the Aromatization enzyme located. in fat cells. now why would it be located there?

    well in pretty much all mammal species, procreation is to occur during times of abundance and health , and procreation is supposed to stop in times of famine and ill health (if a mammal can't feed itself then surely it can't or shouldn't produce offspring that it needs to feed as well).

    this is exactly why our most important sexual hormone, Estrogen, is produced within fat cells. that way during times of extreme famine or starvation, our body fat levels drop down to low single digits and we are no longer producing estrogen. which means we are no longer able to sexually function or even have a sex drive or desire in the first place. low estrogen is = to famine, starvation, or ill health and thus no desire or ability to procreate.

    makes perfect sense biologically

    now why the heck do guys want to take AI's and crush their estrogen levels and put themselves into the same state that ill health and starvation puts you in , is beyond me.

    high levels of estrogen is akin to good health, sexual function, the ability to procreate, living in a time of abundance and thriving etc..

    edit - oh yeah and I almost forgot that not only is estrogen responsible for sexual function and promotes many good health benefits in the body , its also anabolic

    Oestrogen works well for men within a very specific range who don't use AAS and it no doubt performs a number of critical functions, but high oestrogen has been linked to a number of serious health complications in men.

    Stroke
    Heart Disease
    Depression
    Obesity
    Prostate cancer

    Additionally, high levels all impact libido, erectile function and spermatogenesis negatively.
    Last edited by Lee_1978; 12-24-2019 at 06:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_1978 View Post
    Oestrogen works well for men within a very specific range who don't use AAS and it no doubt performs a number of critical functions, but high oestrogen has been linked to a number of serious health complications in men.

    Stroke
    Heart Disease
    Depression
    Obesity
    Prostate cancer

    Additionally, high levels all impact libido, erectile function and spermatogenesis negatively.
    you should correct you statement so its more accurate.. high estrogen IN THE PRESENCE OF LOW ANDROGEN LEVELS has been linked to health issues . just saying high estrogen in general causes health issues is a false statement.

    most of us AAS using men who keep our androgen levels very high while estrogen levels are high, are just fine . but all the nattys out there that have very high estrogen levels while having low androgen levels, can run into health problems. we mainly see this problem in older men who do not produce sufficient levels of androgens naturally. this is where TRT used to help balance out estrogen/androgen ratios can help.

    but for most of us that blast gear, when we are on cycle the "normal" range of estrogen does not apply to us one bit
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 12-24-2019 at 06:58 PM.
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    also keep in mind that men who end up having these health problems that you mention, high estrogen and low androgen levels themselves are not a direct cause of these diseases. its a secondary factor and probably not causative at all. the reason they have high estrogen and low androgen levels in the first place is because of their own lifestyle choices .. their "high estrogen" is NOT directly causing heart disease.. its their crap diet , their insulin resistance, their 45% body fat, their lack of activity , etc. that caused the heart disease and caused the high estrogen and low androgen levels as well .

    so to blame it directly on high estrogen , is completely mis leading and non factual (on the verge of dishonestly actually)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee_1978 View Post
    Oestrogen works well for men within a very specific range who don't use AAS and it no doubt performs a number of critical functions, but high oestrogen has been linked to a number of serious health complications in men.

    Stroke
    Heart Disease
    Depression
    Obesity
    Prostate cancer

    Additionally, high levels all impact libido, erectile function and spermatogenesis negatively.
    Those links are completely correlative, and are largely based on assumptions made when corrections for other lifestyle factors werenít as much of a thing (50s-70s).
    The biggest problem with correlative links is that they are far more prone to bias from previous suppositions than RCTs. These correlation datas are generally drawn from men with ďnaturallyĒ high estrogen, which we only normally see in overfat men who also happen to be low in androgen production. Their test levels are low because estrogen feeds the HPTA the info to reduce production. We also see low DHT levels in these men, because that conversion happens more in muscle tissue. Theyíre overfat is the problem, not the estrogen. Itís a symptom, not a cause. High insulin levels are almost always seen in these men too, for the same reason.

    An example of a properly constructed RCT that would be required to determine causation:
    Four groups, all with normal bodyfat levels, one control group with a normal balance of both androgens and estrogens. A second group with test production clamped and given nothing. A third group with clamped test production and exogenous hormones given to shift the ratios to the low and high ranges respectively. A fourth group with clamped production and given exogenous hormones that put both in the high end (or even above).
    Then a few months would be spent collecting blood values for all CV risk factors.
    The prostate cancer thing is already slowly being laid to rest. This stuff just takes time. Thereís a lot to learn, and medical knowledge is a slower ship to turn than anything other than politics.
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    Dont kid yourselves, to much estrogen for to long is bad for you. Yes it is needed, but not harmless.
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    Disclaimer-BG is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances.
    The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BG View Post
    Dont kid yourselves, to much estrogen for to long is bad for you. Yes it is needed, but not harmless.
    agree. this is why we take breaks from blasting, not just to take a break from elevated androgens but elevated estrogens as well .

    if you look at my 'advanced cycling' protocols thread.. you'll see that even for guys that blast and cruise I have 'anti estrogen' phases built in to down regulate high estrogen for a time

    but during say a 12 week heavy bulking phase, high estrogen along side high androgens can be very beneficial towards your bulking goals . but don't stay there permanently . you need to down regulate both hormones at various times

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    Quote Originally Posted by BG View Post
    Dont kid yourselves, to much estrogen for to long is bad for you. Yes it is needed, but not harmless.
    Oh, donít get it twisted. Iím not saying that chronically elevated E2 is harmless. Any hormone in excess for extended periods of time can and will be harmful to various biological systems.
    Itís more this goofy pervasive myth that somehow having E2 in the 80+ range while on cycle will give you cancer of the AIDS, while ignoring that in all likelihood, being in the 3000+ test range while intentionally suppressing E2 is potentially far more harmful.

    Again, we donít have any REAL body of evidence for either case. Some people feel and perform best with highly elevated E2. Some people just turn into waterbags and feel like total shit. The best approach, in my opinion would be to find out which one you are, and adjust accordingly. Blindly assuming that a single hormone is the cause of all of these problems is foolish at best, and dangerous at worst.

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    So I read GH's post on high E2 and bloat. But how come some guys get really high E2 and water bloat and look like they're pregnant versus some who get completely shredded on damn near eating same amount of calories? Is it genetics? The food choice itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wickedg8gt View Post
    So I read GH's post on high E2 and bloat. But how come some guys get really high E2 and water bloat and look like they're pregnant versus some who get completely shredded on damn near eating same amount of calories? Is it genetics? The food choice itself?
    The same reason that some guys can develop gyno at and blood pressure problems at 60 E2, and others can get well into the triple digits (200+) and have no issues at all.

    One chose their parents more wisely than the other when it comes to this particular thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    The same reason that some guys can develop gyno at and blood pressure problems at 60 E2, and others can get well into the triple digits (200+) and have no issues at all.

    One chose their parents more wisely than the other when it comes to this particular thing.
    Makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    Those links are completely correlative, and are largely based on assumptions made when corrections for other lifestyle factors weren’t as much of a thing (50s-70s).
    The biggest problem with correlative links is that they are far more prone to bias from previous suppositions than RCTs. These correlation datas are generally drawn from men with “naturally” high estrogen, which we only normally see in overfat men who also happen to be low in androgen production. Their test levels are low because estrogen feeds the HPTA the info to reduce production. We also see low DHT levels in these men, because that conversion happens more in muscle tissue. They’re overfat is the problem, not the estrogen. It’s a symptom, not a cause. High insulin levels are almost always seen in these men too, for the same reason.

    An example of a properly constructed RCT that would be required to determine causation:
    Four groups, all with normal bodyfat levels, one control group with a normal balance of both androgens and estrogens. A second group with test production clamped and given nothing. A third group with clamped test production and exogenous hormones given to shift the ratios to the low and high ranges respectively. A fourth group with clamped production and given exogenous hormones that put both in the high end (or even above).
    Then a few months would be spent collecting blood values for all CV risk factors.
    The prostate cancer thing is already slowly being laid to rest. This stuff just takes time. There’s a lot to learn, and medical knowledge is a slower ship to turn than anything other than politics.

    I disagree. He is right about the blod clot and related problems (stroke, etc). High estrogen does cause this and is the reason why estrogen based birth control is prescribed with consideration for these complications.
    -
    -So, if anyone is at risk for this, high estrogen is always bad.

    Maybe everything else is correlation to varying degrees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quester View Post
    I disagree. He is right about the blod clot and related problems (stroke, etc). High estrogen does cause this and is the reason why estrogen based birth control is prescribed with consideration for these complications.
    -
    -So, if anyone is at risk for this, high estrogen is always bad.

    Maybe everything else is correlation to varying degrees.
    This is actually called into question here:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/27023862/

    What weíre seeing is that these clotting issues are more problematic with estrogen-progesterone combinations (and not just by a little) than either of the singular hormones in isolation.
    As such, itís continuing to look more and more like estrogen isnít a problem in and of itself, but can get really weird really quick when multiple systems are screwed with at once.
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  25. #25
    GearHeaded is offline BANNED
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    its interesting , 40+ year old men drop dead of heart attack and stokes all the time. its the leading cause of death. yet 40 year old women who have not yet hit menopause and who have naturally high levels of estrogen, rarely ever drop dead from these conditions.
    women are not at risk of heart disease and stroke, in general, until after they hit menopause and their estrogen levels fall off.
    higher levels of estrogen are generally cardiac protective in most people .. whereas high levels of DHT can cause high hematocrit along with high platelet count and increase stroke and cardiac risk substantially.
    which again is likely why you rarely ever see younger women suddenly drop dead of a stroke or heart attack, but with men it happens all the time.

    personally, I think if your a man and your running exogenous androgens, having higher levels of estrogen along with that is going to be more health protective then health harmful
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    40yr old men drop dead of heart attacks simply because they are married to 40yr old women... duh
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    would it make more sense to taper off your test cycle to prevent the quick drop off of test in your system while still having high E. If you tapered at the end, would that give your body a little more time to have your E lowing while still having some test in your system. Obviously its more test then you would be producing naturally but wouldn't there be some sort of benefit to coming off your cycle this way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephets View Post
    would it make more sense to taper off your test cycle to prevent the quick drop off of test in your system while still having high E. If you tapered at the end, would that give your body a little more time to have your E lowing while still having some test in your system. Obviously its more test then you would be producing naturally but wouldn't there be some sort of benefit to coming off your cycle this way.
    I don't think so unless you are using only fast ester test.... even then I am not sure it is necessary.

    just as test as a half life in your body, so does estrogen so....

    as your test levels drop so will estrogen

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephets View Post
    would it make more sense to taper off your test cycle to prevent the quick drop off of test in your system while still having high E. If you tapered at the end, would that give your body a little more time to have your E lowing while still having some test in your system. Obviously its more test then you would be producing naturally but wouldn't there be some sort of benefit to coming off your cycle this way.
    yes this is a valid point . this is also why guys end up getting gyno or high estrogen symptoms during PCT or post cycle.. its NOT that their estrogen levels are any higher after their cycle then when they were on , its that their androgen levels have dropped off (cause they are not injecting exogenous androgens) and they have then become estrogen dominant.

    this can be prevented by doing a proper PCT . if your going to PCT (trt or blasting and cruising is the most ideal imo) . most of you guys know that I'm not a fan of AI's at all in 90% of situations.. however , my PCT protocol does include using Aromasin going into PCT and at the tail end of a cycle.
    going into your PCT with lower levels of estrogen is going to prevent estrogen 'rebound' and estrogen dominance plus its going to help start natty test production much quicker (as estrogen is suppressive to the hpta)
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    how do you dose your AI during PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Deadlifting Dog View Post
    40yr old men drop dead of heart attacks simply because they are married to 40yr old women... duh
    LMFAO-


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephets View Post
    how do you dose your AI during PCT.
    it depends on the cycle that was ran.. but just in general.
    2 weeks before the cycle ends you begin running Aromasin EOD. when the cycle ends you keep running the Aromasin and then begin blasting your HCG at 1500iu per week for 3 weeks. THEN you start your clomid and nolva and drop the AI and the HCG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    this can be prevented by doing a proper PCT . if your going to PCT (trt or blasting and cruising is the most ideal imo) . most of you guys know that I'm not a fan of AI's at all in 90% of situations.. however , my PCT protocol does include using Aromasin going into PCT and at the tail end of a cycle.
    going into your PCT with lower levels of estrogen is going to prevent estrogen 'rebound' and estrogen dominance plus its going to help start natty test production much quicker (as estrogen is suppressive to the hpta)
    At what point and duration are you adding Aromasin...during half-life waiting period prior to PCT?

    Edit: already answered, thanks!
    Last edited by Chark; 12-31-2019 at 10:10 AM. Reason: already answered, thanks!

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    I think the most important part of what he said could be misinterpreted by the wrong person, so just to be sure itís clear:
    He said Aromasin , NOT fucking Arimadex.

    Yes, thereís a reason for this (suicide AI vs. non) and less likely to make your already shitty lipid panel even worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    it depends on the cycle that was ran.. but just in general.
    2 weeks before the cycle ends you begin running Aromasin EOD. when the cycle ends you keep running the Aromasin and then begin blasting your HCG at 1500iu per week for 3 weeks. THEN you start your clomid and nolva and drop the AI and the HCG.
    Are you guys not taking hcg during cycle anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephets View Post
    Are you guys not taking hcg during cycle anymore.
    I personally only run HCG once per year for about 3 weeks. but I blast and cruise and don't PCT..

    for guys that PCT, you can definitely run it the whole duration of the cycle. but that can be costly and isn't absolutely necessary. . just taking it the last 3-4 weeks and then going into PCT works just fine

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    I'm going to get some bloods this week. One being estrogen. LC offers 3 different ones and I'm trying to figure out which one. Estradiol e2, Estradiol Sensitive e2, or Estrogen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wickedg8gt View Post
    I'm going to get some bloods this week. One being estrogen. LC offers 3 different ones and I'm trying to figure out which one. Estradiol e2, Estradiol Sensitive e2, or Estrogen?
    Sensitive E2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gallowmere View Post
    Sensitive E2.
    Ok. Thank you. I'm going on Friday to get the blood work. I pin on Tuesdays and Fridays and take .25mg of adex the day after each pin(Weds/Fri). Should I continue to take the adex on Weds? And should I pin before the blood test?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wickedg8gt View Post
    Ok. Thank you. I'm going on Friday to get the blood work. I pin on Tuesdays and Fridays and take .25mg of adex the day after each pin(Weds/Fri). Should I continue to take the adex on Weds? And should I pin before the blood test?
    Keep everything the same as it has been. Donít alter your protocol unless youíre trying to intentionally manipulate results, which it doesnít sound like you want to do.

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