why the need for anti estrogens or AI's

I'm mainly posting this for newer users to this forum. the general consensus around here is that AI's are not needed and most guys on this forum have gotten much better gains after dropping their use of anti estrogens.


so question for you newer guys . why are you so concerned about estrogen and think that an AI is essential in your cycles ?


I mean most Anabolic Steroids don't even convert to estrogen in the first place. you can run a dozen different drugs and cycle for 20 years and never have to deal with estrogen in the first place because most drugs don't convert to estrogen.
yet you think AI's are critical on cycle . ummm , learn how to cycle

Masteron - doesn't convert and has anti E properties
Primobolan - doesn't convert and has anti E properties
Winstrol - doesn't covert
Halo - doesn't convert
Stenbolone - doesn't convert
DHB - doesn't convert
Proviron - doesn't convert and has anti E properties
Var - doesn't convert
Tbol - doesn't convert
Superdrol - doesn't convert
EQ - converts at a very small rate but has anti estrogen properties (your e levels go down not up on EQ)
Deca - does not elevate E levels but is progestinic
Npp - same as deca
Tren - does not convert but is progestinic
Metribolone - does not convert
Anadrol - does not convert but will activate estrogen receptors
SARMs - don't convert

I could go on...


now for the few steroids that do aromatize

Dbol - very estrogenic and aromatizes a ton
Ment - very estrogenic (have you even heard of ment let alone are you going to run it)
Cheque Drops - very estrogenic (have you even heard of cheque drops let alone are you going to run it)

^ pretty short lis here eh . and two of the drugs listed you likely never even heard of.



so when you compare these lists and think about the actual AAS your going to run ,, why are AI's even a consideration for your cycles , let alone a focal point of them.


note - I left out Test because test is not technically (by medical definition) an Anabolic Steroid, its a naturally occurring androgen. and yes test does convert to E , but thats what its supposed to do, thats how we make the estrogen we need. when you add Test to any cycle you do , your doing so for the whole purpose of getting the estrogen you need (because most other steroids will shut down natural estrogen production, and we need estrogen for health and to build muscle).



so with all the different drugs at our disposal , we can surely run a various amount of steroid stacks without ever needing an AI.

and the most simplest common sense thing in the world is -- IF you don't want elevated estrogen then simply don't run Aromatizing Steroids. DUH.. if you don't want elevated estrogen, then by golly don't run Dbol and Ment together silly.. Run Deca and Winny or the countess other AAS that don't aromatize .
if you don't want elevated estrogen, don't run a gram of test. its that simple. running an estrogenic compound on purpose, then running an AI with it is counter productive and defeating the purpose. the whole reason you would decide to run an aromatizing compound is for the very reason that it does aromatize and you do want the estrogen.
eg,, if you were running a SARMs cycle but didn't want to suppress estrogen, you could add a low dose of Dbol to get some estrogen.



the use of AI's is totally over blown and over exaggerated . people talk about using AI's all the time. heck some guys will say you shouldn't even run a cycle without them . what a load of crap . look at the big picture. look at the AAS at our disposal . AI's are completely unnecessary

side note - and of course estrogen is anabolic and helps build muscle , helps blood flow and vascularity, helps with muscle pumps and glycogen loading, increases IGF , etc .. so why would you want to suppress an anabolic hormone when your trying to build muscle in the first place.
AI's are anti anabolic and hinder gains

Thanks for this post GH.

Honestly, I think it has a lot to do with all of the stuff about estrogen dominance and the like that’s currently all over the internet. Yes, it is a real problem, but people only seem to see the first word and run with it. Nevermind the fact that the actual problem is that the common men who have issues from high estrogen are also suffering from low androgen. This literally can’t happen when you’re running a cycle, unless you’re running an injectable estradiol cycle for some reason.

They just see “estrogen” and freak out all the way to the ancil store.

and for you guys that compete .. ever wonder why 8 weeks out you seem nice and full and get great pumps in the gym, yet on contest day your flat and stringy and can't get a pump at all and can't seem to load up on carbs and get full of glycogen.

umm , well thats cause your dumb ass coach has you running a shit ton of AI's and anti estrogens going into a show thinking thats somehow going to make you dry and lean. but instead your flat and stringy and soft. its the AI's causing your problem.
you need estrogen for blood flow , vascular dilation, muscle pumps, loading glycogen, and proper glucose metabolism.

getting 'dry' and hard is more about water and electrolyte/mineral manipulation then it is about estrogen. you don't need to crush estrogen to get dry and hard . its just the opposite . you need the estrogen.
I don't think in the last couple years I've even once used an AI with a contest prep client . I'm baffled when I see coaches , like Nick Trigili, having clients run Nolva, Letro, and Arimidex all at the same time at very high dosages going into a show. not only are you killing that persons health, sex life and personal relationships, and mental capacity, your limiting the physique as well. your going to look way bigger and fuller and harder on stage without those things

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Originally Posted by Gallowmere

Thanks for this post GH.

Honestly, I think it has a lot to do with all of the stuff about estrogen dominance and the like that’s currently all over the internet. Yes, it is a real problem, but people only seem to see the first word and run with it. Nevermind the fact that the actual problem is that the common men who have issues from high estrogen are also suffering from low androgen. This literally can’t happen when you’re running a cycle, unless you’re running an injectable estradiol cycle for some reason.

They just see “estrogen” and freak out all the way to the ancil store.

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I think stress and other life factors can definitely impact your androgen levels, for the worse, then of course impact Cortisol. and this may all have a downstream effect which may impact progesterone level, and before you know it your hyper sensitive to estrogen because of the progestin effect (even though your E levels themselves did not go up) and then you get negative estrogen side effects like gyno..

I know natty guys that end up getting gyno symptoms .. and here I am running 2 grams of test per week and swallowing 100mg of dbol a day and have done so for years and yet never once even got putty nips.

really genetic dependent . but also life stressors can likely have an impact

Ineeded to stop 30 mg dianabol ed cause im little fat and i lost my AIs. Never felt so bad. All i wanted was to hit the sack.

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Great info. I wonder what's your physique like. With so much knowledge, you must look like a beast

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Originally Posted by AR's King Silabolin

Ineeded to stop 30 mg dianabol ed cause im little fat and i lost my AIs. Never felt so bad. All i wanted was to hit the sack.

Sent fra min BLA-L29 via Tapatalk

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You’re lookin huge these days Sil

Good post i agree with most points mentioned i do still believe an AI has its uses , but when i do run a progesterin like tren i ALWAYS have to run MAST with it. I am currently running MAST along side my trt dose and feel fine, i do believe an AI will in fact hinder gains also. I have arimidex on hand , im extremely sensitive to test conversion but dont need it as long as i have MAST. Ive come to really prefer test and mast over any other stack i have done, be nice to have some anavar right now

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Originally Posted by Bjorg89

Great info. I wonder what's your physique like. With so much knowledge, you must look like a beast

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unfortunately no . all my knowledge only gave me decent traps and calves and thats about it.
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the genetics to obtain knowledge are not the same genetics that build massive amounts of muscle. oh well

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Originally Posted by Cuz

Good post i agree with most points mentioned i do still believe an AI has its uses , but when i do run a progesterin like tren i ALWAYS have to run MAST with it. I am currently running MAST along side my trt dose and feel fine, i do believe an AI will in fact hinder gains also. I have arimidex on hand , im extremely sensitive to test conversion but dont need it as long as i have MAST. Ive come to really prefer test and mast over any other stack i have done, be nice to have some anavar right now

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Have you tried Mast + Nolva or just Mast on its own with Test ?

Also have you tried cutting Test with a similar compound ? So instead of 600mg Test using 250mg Test with 350mg of Primo or EQ?

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Originally Posted by Windex

Have you tried Mast + Nolva or just Mast on its own with Test ?

Also have you tried cutting Test with a similar compound ? So instead of 600mg Test using 250mg Test with 350mg of Primo or EQ?

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^ this is an ideal strategy for guys that are estrogen sensitive . just use low dose of Test and fill in the gap with either Primo or Eq which both have anti estrogen properties

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

unfortunately no . all my knowledge only gave me decent traps and calves and thats about it.
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the genetics to obtain knowledge are not the same genetics that build massive amounts of muscle. oh well

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few people make calves gains, so well done on that :wg:

Thanks for the info GearHeaded! Back to basics!

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Originally Posted by Windex

Have you tried Mast + Nolva or just Mast on its own with Test ?

Also have you tried cutting Test with a similar compound ? So instead of 600mg Test using 250mg Test with 350mg of Primo or EQ?

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I have not i have actually just used the Mast. Ive never even used primo or EQ , i would probably opt for primo if i could get it here. May try that next time

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

^ this is an ideal strategy for guys that are estrogen sensitive . just use low dose of Test and fill in the gap with either Primo or Eq which both have anti estrogen properties

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is one genetically prone to estrogen sensitivity or does one develop that state?

i ran my first cycle 500mg test and 30mg winstrol, no AI, had great gains and no issues. PCT was nolva 40/40/20/20

i ran 250 mg test after 5 months and had nipple issues from time to time and took AI (nolva might have been better, but i didn't know that), which helped at that point

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Originally Posted by Bjorg89

is one genetically prone to estrogen sensitivity or does one develop that state?

i ran my first cycle 500mg test and 30mg winstrol, no AI, had great gains and no issues. PCT was nolva 40/40/20/20

i ran 250 mg test after 5 months and had nipple issues from time to time and took AI (nolva might have been better, but i didn't know that), which helped at that point

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things like gyno are definitely genetic . but things like sensitivity to estrogen is adaptive over time.. usually the longer you run gear and expose yourself to higher and higher androgen and estrogen levels, the more your body becomes used to that and the less and less side effects you get.
I can run 2000mg of test and have zero estrogen side effects. but 8 years ago this was not the case. so I just ran moderate dosages like 600mg.

the first year or two of beginning to cycle is when your going to have your most negative side effects. over time you'll likely acclimate and not have hardly any negative side effects.

I remember my first Test, Deca, Dbol cycle .. I shot up like 20 pounds in 2 weeks and my BP was like 220/100 . but now I can ran that same combo at much higher dosages and barely get a bump in blood pressure at all.

I used to get a bit of anxiety when Estrogen levels got really high . but heck now I feel great with higher estrogen.

your body adapts over time (but with things like gyno if your genetic prone to it, your going to likely get it no matter what)

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Originally Posted by GearHeaded

things like gyno are definitely genetic . but things like sensitivity to estrogen is adaptive over time.. usually the longer you run gear and expose yourself to higher and higher androgen and estrogen levels, the more your body becomes used to that and the less and less side effects you get.
I can run 2000mg of test and have zero estrogen side effects. but 8 years ago this was not the case. so I just ran moderate dosages like 600mg.

the first year or two of beginning to cycle is when your going to have your most negative side effects. over time you'll likely acclimate and not have hardly any negative side effects.

I remember my first Test, Deca, Dbol cycle .. I shot up like 20 pounds in 2 weeks and my BP was like 220/100 . but now I can ran that same combo at much higher dosages and barely get a bump in blood pressure at all.

I used to get a bit of anxiety when Estrogen levels got really high . but heck now I feel great with higher estrogen.

your body adapts over time (but with things like gyno if your genetic prone to it, your going to likely get it no matter what)

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Spot on here GH. I'd say the first 3-4 weeks of my test cycle my nips would get sensitive at times. For example, after the gym, I'm all sweaty, take off my gym shirt and my nips feels sensitive. Fast forward to week 13, and that sensitivity, and overall nip sensitivity is completely gone. No ai's, no nolva, nothing, just time & patience. Like you said, it's the body getting used to what's going on. Whether my sensitive nips had anything to do with estrogen I'm not sure, but I think there's some kind of relationship there. 500mg p/wk of test now feels like easy mode. Hell I feel like I can stay on this dose forever lmao. The only thing I don't like is my elevated BP, but to be fair I'm not very lean, I am holding a bit of water and fat. In the past, when I drop weight be it water and/or fat, my BP drops like a rock.