Current state of approach to aromatase inhibitors?

[Chark]

Hey fellas,

Newbie here planning first cycle. My question is what the generally accepted approach to inhibitor usage is in this day and age is. Clearly over time we get newer information and better at how we approach things.

I’ve read a couple great threads, one being by austinite who in 2013 suggested usage EOD beginning with cycle. Another great thread by GearHeaded was about the overuse of and that estrgen is expected to be increased and even embraced for muscle-building purposes. My takeaway being that not every person requires them and may be shooting themselves in the foot by being afraid of the word “estrogn.”

My current thoughts were to have on hand in case of the notes side effects occurring or if concerns are raised when my mid-cycle blood work comes back. Should I take this approach or take throughout the 12 weeks?

Thanks!

[ghettoboyd]

I personally stopped taking a.i.s years ago after many cycles of using them because it was "advised" but after continually crashing my estrogen I decided to stop and things went well so I never took them again...if gyno starts to rear its ugly head I take nolvadex instead to block estrogen at the receptor but not actually illiminating it, for reasons gearheaded spoke of, i.e its anabolic effects...

[Wannabhuge14]

Hey fellas,

Newbie here planning first cycle. My question is what the generally accepted approach to inhibitor usage is in this day and age is. Clearly over time we get newer information and better at how we approach things.

I’ve read a couple great threads, one being by austinite who in 2013 suggested usage EOD beginning with cycle. Another great thread by GearHeaded was about the overuse of and that estrgen is expected to be increased and even embraced for muscle-building purposes. My takeaway being that not every person requires them and may be shooting themselves in the foot by being afraid of the word “estrogn.”

My current thoughts were to have on hand in case of the notes side effects occurring or if concerns are raised when my mid-cycle blood work comes back. Should I take this approach or take throughout the 12 weeks?

Thanks!

The only place an ai belongs is in the trash. If gyno is a concern just use nolva, it isn’t going to poison you or hinder gains.

[Chark]

So you guys would advise keeping Nolva on hand (beyond amounts to be used in PCT) to use in place of an AI? What dosages/dosing times are you taking Nolva if gyno symptoms?

I imagine a lot of the true answers to this are individual and bloodwork dependent, just looking for an overall reasonable strategy to implement until I become aware of how my body reacts.

[Wannabhuge14]

So you guys would advise keeping Nolva on hand (beyond amounts to be used in PCT) to use in place of an AI? What dosages/dosing times are you taking Nolva if gyno symptoms?

I imagine a lot of the true answers to this are individual and bloodwork dependent, just looking for an overall reasonable strategy to implement until I become aware of how my body reacts.

10mg everyday is all you would need on cycle

[JaneDoe]

Aromatase Inhibitors can easily lower serum estrogen levels in your body without you even realizing it in low doses.
Aromatase inhibitors go against muscle anabolism because they inhibit estrogen in our body, undermining every purpose of building muscle mass.


GearHeaded has always mentioned here in the forum that high estrogen is anabolic . Being essential in building muscle mass.
Hardly a person who is a steroid user will be able to keep the E2 within normal range .. Only ordinary people who do not use steroids should worry about it.
The best option to do is just block estrogen receptors with 10 mg nolvadex every day in the cycle (this will prevent gynecomastia because estrogen will be blocked). But one thing Nolvadex won't hurt your cycle gains ..Nolvadex 10 mg every day in the cycle is what you will need.

[Chark]

Aromatase Inhibitors can easily lower serum estrogen levels in your body without you even realizing it in low doses.
Aromatase inhibitors go against muscle anabolism because they inhibit estrogen in our body, undermining every purpose of building muscle mass.


GearHeaded has always mentioned here in the forum that high estrogen is anabolic . Being essential in building muscle mass.
Hardly a person who is a steroid user will be able to keep the E2 within normal range .. Only ordinary people who do not use steroids should worry about it.
The best option to do is just block estrogen receptors with 10 mg nolvadex every day in the cycle (this will prevent gynecomastia because estrogen will be blocked). But one thing Nolvadex won't hurt your cycle gains ..Nolvadex 10 mg every day in the cycle is what you will need.

Thank you so much for the detailed reply. I’m really glad I made this thread. I’m not trying to nitpick your words of “will prevent gyno,” I’m just surprised I haven’t come across more recommendations to just Nolva daily when on, especially if there are “no downsides” (in quotes because anything that can be put into body someone out there will experience side effects. Hell, fucking vitamin C has a host of them listed). What I mean is I’m more concerned with more realistic issues that can occur. This just sounds too good to be true, is it and I just haven’t researched enough?

[JaneDoe]

Chark; Muito obrigado pela resposta detalhada. Estou realmente feliz por ter feito esse tópico. Não estou tentando apontar suas palavras de "evitará o ginecologista". Estou surpreso por não ter encontrado mais recomendações apenas para a Nolva diariamente, quando estiver ligado, especialmente se não houver "desvantagens" (entre aspas, porque qualquer coisa que alguém pode experimentar efeitos colaterais (droga, vitamina C tem uma lista deles listados). O que quero dizer é que estou mais preocupado com problemas mais realistas que podem ocorrer. Isso parece bom demais para ser verdade, não é? Ainda não pesquisei o suficiente?

No one needs aromatase inhibitors in an AAS protocol, just competitive bodybuilders who want the most defined and hard muscles.
Don't be afraid, the Nolvadex will meet the needs of your cycle. Because it directly blocks estrogen receptors, you will avoid all the high levels of E2 you would otherwise have had.
Remember that Nolvadex is directly blocking estrogen-releasing receptors in your body, so it works.
If you do not wish to take 10 mg per day, you can take 20 mg per day and it will be perfect and completely effective.

[JaneDoe]

When GearHeaded shows up here it explains you better about it. He understands well about the subject

[JaneDoe]

What steroid are you planning to use???I imagine that you will only use some testosterone in your first cycle, right?

[JaneDoe]

GearHeaded
Anabolic Member

Join DateNov 2017Posts6,547

why the need for anti estrogens or AI's

I'm mainly posting this for newer users to this forum. the general consensus around here is that AI's are not needed and most guys on this forum have gotten much better gains after dropping their use of anti estrogens.


so question for you newer guys . why are you so concerned about estrogen and think that an AI is essential in your cycles ?


I mean most Anabolic Steroids don't even convert to estrogen in the first place. you can run a dozen different drugs and cycle for 20 years and never have to deal with estrogen in the first place because most drugs don't convert to estrogen.
yet you think AI's are critical on cycle . ummm , learn how to cycle

Masteron - doesn't convert and has anti E properties
Primobolan - doesn't convert and has anti E properties
Winstrol - doesn't covert
Halo - doesn't convert
Stenbolone - doesn't convert
DHB - doesn't convert
Proviron - doesn't convert and has anti E properties
Var - doesn't convert
Tbol - doesn't convert
Superdrol - doesn't convert
EQ - converts at a very small rate but has anti estrogen properties (your e levels go down not up on EQ)
Deca - does not elevate E levels but is progestinic
Npp - same as deca
Tren - does not convert but is progestinic
Metribolone - does not convert
Anadrol - does not convert but will activate estrogen receptors
SARMs - don't convert

I could go on...


now for the few steroids that do aromatize

Dbol - very estrogenic and aromatizes a ton
Ment - very estrogenic (have you even heard of ment let alone are you going to run it)
Cheque Drops - very estrogenic (have you even heard of cheque drops let alone are you going to run it)

^ pretty short lis here eh . and two of the drugs listed you likely never even heard of.



so when you compare these lists and think about the actual AAS your going to run ,, why are AI's even a consideration for your cycles , let alone a focal point of them.


note - I left out Test because test is not technically (by medical definition) an Anabolic Steroid , its a naturally occurring androgen. and yes test does convert to E , but thats what its supposed to do, thats how we make the estrogen we need. when you add Test to any cycle you do , your doing so for the whole purpose of getting the estrogen you need (because most other steroids will shut down natural estrogen production, and we need estrogen for health and to build muscle).



so with all the different drugs at our disposal , we can surely run a various amount of steroid stacks without ever needing an AI.

and the most simplest common sense thing in the world is -- IF you don't want elevated estrogen then simply don't run Aromatizing Steroids. DUH.. if you don't want elevated estrogen, then by golly don't run Dbol and Ment together silly.. Run Deca and Winny or the countess other AAS that don't aromatize .
if you don't want elevated estrogen, don't run a gram of test. its that simple. running an estrogenic compound on purpose, then running an AI with it is counter productive and defeating the purpose. the whole reason you would decide to run an aromatizing compound is for the very reason that it does aromatize and you do want the estrogen.
eg,, if you were running a SARMs cycle but didn't want to suppress estrogen, you could add a low dose of Dbol to get some estrogen.

Last edited by GearHeaded; 11-25-2019 at 08:22 PM.

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You, Bjorg89, Chark and 1 others

[JaneDoe]

You already saw this post from GearHeaded, so it's pretty clear that Al isn't necessary. Even more so in a simple test cycle.

[Chark]

Thanks GH, funnily enough I’ve read and liked that post

Will re-read!

[Windex]

If estrogen is a concern simply cut Test with an equivalent.

750mg Test becomes 150mg Test + 600mg Primo OR 600mg EQ

Another example ;

150mg Test, 30mg Var/day, 500mg Primo

OR

200mg Test + 300mg Mast + 30mg Var/day

There's tons of options.

[Chark]

What steroid are you planning to use???I imagine that you will only use some testosterone in your first cycle, right?

Yes, basic newbie Test E @500mg/wk

After making thread and digging deeper, I have seen Nolva @10mg recommended by other members.

I saw GearHeaded explain that AI's were used to prevent gyno but not reverse it. I've gotten the impression that AI's are a "thing of the past" or possibly for more advanced user. Assuming 12 week cycle, 2 weeks off (E ester), then 4 weeks PCT. I've read it's advised I should run HCG from day 1 up through 2 week off period (up until day 1 PCT). Should Nolva be run through the 2 week off period with dosage then increased day 1 of PCT (makes sense but wanted to ask)?

Also, is there anything that would be nice to have on hand to battle gyno symptoms should it occur even on Nolva like Raloxifene (does Raloxifene concurrent with Nolva even make sense)?

For clarity, I should take Nolva day 1 of cycle as opposed to an "if gyno symptoms," correct?

*Please excuse if answered, I typed this up a few hours ago but was blocked by spam filter for having <25 posts.

Thanks boys.

[Chark]

If estrogen is a concern simply cut Test with an equivalent.

750mg Test becomes 150mg Test + 600mg Primo OR 600mg EQ

Another example ;

150mg Test, 30mg Var/day, 500mg Primo

OR

200mg Test + 300mg Mast + 30mg Var/day

There's tons of options.

Hey Windex,

Thanks for the ideas. I've copy/pasted your examples into a notepad for potentially considering in future. I'm not sure I should add more than 1 new piece at a time in case I run into issues as I won't be able to pinpoint what it may be. I appreciate the thoughtful response and figure you might have missed a noob posted this

I've read a lot of your posts in my research. You're mint for the forum.

[JaneDoe]

Chark; Sim, teste básico para iniciantes E @ 500mg / sem

Depois de aprofundar a discussão e aprofundar, vi o Nolva @ 10mg recomendado por outros membros.

Como o GearHeaded explica que o IA era usado para impedir o ginecologista, mas não revertê-lo. Tive uma impressão de que como IA é uma "coisa do passado" ou possivelmente para usuários mais avançados. Assumindo um ciclo de 12 semanas, 2 semanas de folga (Éster) e, em seguida, 4 semanas de PCT. Eu li que é aconselhável que eu execute o HCG do dia 1 ao período de 2 semanas fora (até o dia 1 PCT). O Nolva deve ser administrado durante o período de 2 semanas com dosagem e depois aumentado no dia 1 da PCT (faz sentido, mas queria perguntar)?

Além disso,

Para maior clareza, deve tomar o dia 1 do ciclo de Nolva, em vez de um "se os sintomas da ginecomastia" estão corretos?

* Por favor, desculpe-se por responder, digite-o algumas horas atrás, mas fui bloqueado pelo filtro de spam por <25 postagens.

Obrigado rapazes.

Bem, o tamoxifeno tomado a uma dose de 10 mg a partir do início do ciclo até ao fim.
Supondo que seu ciclo seja de 12 semanas, você começará a executar o seu Nolvadex da semana 1 à semana 12.
Ao pedalar, você precisará injetar 250 UI de HCG a cada 3 ou 4 dias, o que fornecerá 500 UI por semana (e você deve injetar gives Semana 1 a Semana 12 no final do seu ciclo)


Não, você não precisará do Raloxifeno.
Nolvadex já o protegerá da ginecomastia.
Se ocorrer alguma sensibilidade mamilar, você simplesmente aumenta a dose de Nolvadex, que será resolvida. Aumente para 40 mg até que os sintomas da ginecomastia desapareçam.




Sim, o início do PCT é de 14 dias após the last aplicação do seu Testo E.




Em seguida, siga o seguinte cronograma de 4 semanas dos serms PCT, tomando Nolvadex e Clomid juntos para acelerar sua recuperação. Nolvadex e Clomid agem em sinergia.


Nolvadex:
40/20/20/20


Clomid:
75/50/50/50

[ZYZZ LEGACY]

I ran 0.25 mg of arimidex every two days smoothly on my first Testo C cycle.

[ZYZZ LEGACY]

I think a lot of guys are treating AI's like something completely bad, but the thing is that they are not that monster when they are supervised by blood tests.

[Chark]

I think a lot of guys are treating AI's like something completely bad, but the thing is that they are not that monster when they are supervised by blood tests.

Great thread by GearHeaded if you haven’t seen:

https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...tml?highlight=

[Chark]

Quick question: I had ordered Nolva from two sources but the first one I received mixed up Tamoxifene with another SERM, Toremifene. I was planning on using Tamox at 10mg daily during cycle as suggested here...would using Torem accomplish something very similar by keeping gyno tissue from forming? If so, what dosages would be taken ON cycle? For example my plan was to 10mg a day on cycle with Nolva then 40/20/20/20 during PCT. I will have Nolva coming soon but I was wondering if Torem was usable in the same manner.

From another thread:
Tamoxifen Citrate (Nolvadex )-
Tamoxifen is usually used as an endocrine (anti-estrogen) therapy for hormone receptor-positive breast cancer in women. It is an antagonist of the estrogen receptor in the breast, while in other tissues it acts as an agonist sort of like how Clomid does.[3] Half-life is about 6 days, so ed to eod dosing is best for PCT use. 20-50mg daily seems the norm for this.

Toremifene Citrate (Torem/Fareston)-
Torem Is SERM similar to Tamoxifen (Nolva). Torem is also used to treat breast cancer and also does this by exerting estrogen antagonistic effects in certain tissues like breast tissue (anti-estrogen). It can act as an antagonist in the hypothalamus and pituitary, which could also increase testosterone production (why I recommend it as a PCT). Torem also seems to have a better ability to increase testosterone levels over Tamox because its andro to estro ratio is much greater than Tamox/Nolva. Half life is about 5 days. Dosing daily to eod is recommended for PCT use. Dosing of Torem for PCT at 20-100mg ed seems to be the norm.

[GearHeaded]

I somehow missed this thread .. lots of good info here.

but this is all I will say . NOT taking an AI will lead to more gains. period

[JaneDoe]

Use one quarter of the tablet, which gives you 15 mg a day in your cycle.

[JaneDoe]

Toremifene is almost the same as Nolvadex tamoxifen , 15 mg Toremifene looks good for anyone who wants to use it on cycle.

[Chark]

I somehow missed this thread .. lots of good info here.

but this is all I will say . NOT taking an AI will lead to more gains. period

Thanks to everyone in this thread, I have NO intention of using AI’s. I imagine under the right circumstances they may their place in the bodybuilding world, but mine certainly isn’t it.

[Chark]

Toremifene is almost the same as Nolvadex tamoxifen, 15 mg Toremifene looks good for anyone who wants to use it on cycle.

Thanks man, I’ll give 15mg torem a whirl until my tamox comes in and switch to the recommended 10mg tamox. I feel better about using torem in the meantime given it is also a breast tissue antagonist.

[Obs]

Maybe the reason I blew up so fast was because I ditched AI early on.

No one told me to. I just really didnt give a damn for it. Hell, when I did everyone was all about it.

"You will grow boobs and your dick will fly off!"

My dick flew into things alright...
I may produce milk but I've no gyno.

Suck it charger.

[zeph1ro7]

Thanks to everyone in this thread, I have NO intention of using AI’s. I imagine under the right circumstances they may their place in the bodybuilding world, but mine certainly isn’t it.

Well this thread was very enlightening to me as well because I have the exact same doubts, as i've read the sticky threads where they recommend AI using in a cycle. But I guess as years goes by things change and there's new protocols now.


By the way, thanks for your friend request man. I still don't have 25 posts so I couldn't reply your PM

[donopat]

I personally stopped taking a.i.s years ago after many cycles of using them because it was "advised" but after continually crashing my estrogen I decided to stop and things went well so I never took them again...if gyno starts to rear its ugly head I take nolvadex instead to block estrogen at the receptor but not actually illiminating it, for reasons gearheaded spoke of, i.e its anabolic effects...

Yeah I haven't taken an ai in years........I always run mast at around 350-500 depending if it's prop or enan ester..... Like year round I run mast.so I just consider that my e2 control.. plus I take 66mgs of zinc glycinate and 400iu vitamin e daily and those together help with e2 and prolactin support...... I don't do any aromatizing compounds except test which stays at 500-625 on average . Sometimes up to 750-900 but very rarely..... I run sust for the last few years so I'm usually at 2.5cc a week which is 625 except I'm doing dragon pharma sust which is 270mg because it has 20mg of test ace I believe it is....

Plus if our test levels than to be in homeostasis our estro levels should be somewhat higher as well.... If you have test levels of 2000-3000ng/nl you should have higher estro levels than someone with 700-800ng/nl otherwise you'd actually have low estro levels and there's a bunch of negative sides that come along with that ...I haven't had my estro levels checked in over 10 years.. I really have no interest.... If I started doing 1000mgs + test a week I'd add some aromasin in but at 50 I'm not going to be doing that...... I run test/mast and either deca or eq .I got 100ml of primo so I'm going to give that a try soon but that's only going to be a one time deal it looks like..... I'm happy running just mast and test if that's all I could but eq and deca are so inexpensive that it really doesn't cost much to add 2cc a week of one of those 2 if you're trying to keep expenses down...... 400-600mg of either of those two a week with 500 sust and $00-400 mast is a great year round cycle that's inexpensive......some winni or var or superdrol and you're jamming... I don't do tren anymore ...I can't physically handle doing the actual shots...I'm extremely sensitive