I’m so confused aromasin or nolvadex

[SuperDuty04]

So I’ve spent countless hours reading here as well as googling and it just makes me more confused. You see some very reputable BB’s say you absolutely shoukd run an AI and others say no way. Some say just have nolvadex on hand. But when googling it, I read how beneficial aromasin is and how it increases IGF-1.

I have a feeling I already have higher estrogen levels due to being overweight and always having a hard time putting on muscle. And Have had extremely low sperm count for 20 years now.

I certainly don’t want too have too much estrogen and I plan to start pinning 400-500mg/week of test E soon.

Should I just play it safe and start right off with aromasin and if I do this, will it really negate any gains to be had from the excess Test? Or should I just have nolvadex on hand if the estrogen signs start showing up?

And yeah, I read the stickies.

[Bio-Active]

Those two compounds do 2 different thing. Nolvadex will compete for the receptor in the mammary gland stopping estrogen from binding to it fighting off gyno, if you run an AI aromasin it will lower circulating estrogen by stopping the excess test from aromatizing to excess estrogen. My suggestion would be to run ore cycle labs to determine your baseline and then run labs on cycle to determine what is going on. Take the guess work out

[onyxvex]

i would suggest using exemestane AKA stane and HCG injection 250mcg-500mcg twice or more per week. people have been very successful with this

[SuperDuty04]

Those two compounds do 2 different thing. Nolvadex will compete for the receptor in the mammary gland stopping estrogen from binding to it fighting off gyno, if you run an AI aromasin it will lower circulating estrogen by stopping the excess test from aromatizing to excess estrogen. My suggestion would be to run ore cycle labs to determine your baseline and then run labs on cycle to determine what is going on. Take the guess work out

Sounds like solid advice. Should I request the doc run specific tests or just tell him I need testosterone labs run? I’ll search and see what I can find on this. I’m sure it’s been said a bunch here.
Thanks brother!

[Bio-Active]

Sounds like solid advice. Should I request the doc run specific tests or just tell him I need testosterone labs run? I’ll search and see what I can find on this. I’m sure it’s been said a bunch here.
Thanks brother!

Get a full panel done if you can.

[JaneDoe]

Well this is a path that only you can go!
You will hear guys who are in favor of using AI and guys who are not.

[JaneDoe]

I prefer to use Nolvadex because it just blocks estrogen receptors, and as our friend above said;


Aromatesis inhibitors lowers serum estrogen levels.


That is :


Not effective for those who want to make anabolic gains in the cycle.

[SuperDuty04]

Man thanks guys! It’s great to have a place to come where people aren’t just very knowledgeable but so willing to help ya out.
I guess I’ll just start off with Nolvadex to begin with. I just don’t wanna grow tits! I can handle things gettin outta whack and getting them back in check as long as I don’t grow boobies lol.
I don’t know if I’ll have the funds for blood work right off the bat. I own a business and winter time is when I basically don’t get any work so I’m doing alarm and surveillance systems until March and it’s barely covering my massive expenses for a family of 5 and truck payments and mortgage. If this was summer time I’d be swimming in money. Or if I could get the wifey to learn to save at least 2-3 grand a week back in the summer time then winters would be easy.
It sucks that I’m gonna have to sell a gun or some tools just to get $ for my gear.

Met with a specialist today and found out the severe sciatica I’ve been dealing with is a herniated L1 and L5. I go back in a week for some kind of a nerve test. This injury took me from 170# to 200 so the weight has go to come off. Hopefully high test will give me more energy and aid in burning this fat off. I don’t even have the energy to exercise. I’m gonna give up the beer so that’ll definitely help me shed some weight. At 47 I’m ready to give my health some serious attention. I’ve never been able to put muscle on in my life and i want more than anything to become healthy and muscular. I’m tired of people looking at me and my wife and thinking why is SHE with HIM.

[Ernst]

In a perfect world you have both.

I favor using an AI. I also favor having Nolva around. I may even lean towards one over the other depending on goals or compounds used.

Part of the reason we have these disagreements is probably rooted in the fact that we as individuals react differently to different compounds and different hormone levels. There is no 'one size fits all' in this game. We will ultimately agree that it's a balancing act and that at least some estrogen is needed for normal bodily functions.

[Quester]

-Up until just recently, it was incredibly unusual to hear someone say they were going to run a cycle without an AI. The members of this forum have had great results running an AI as standard in every cycle for many many more years than anyone has been running without an AI.
-Perhaps both, AI, and no AI, have legitimate benefits and nothing is ever 100% one way until a few minutes ago and then 100% the opposite.

[JaneDoe]

One of the big reasons that also made guys stop using Al was that they raise bad cholesterol (LDL).
The increase in (LDL) is bad for health because it participates in the formation of atheromatous plaques in the vessels of the heart and brain, restricting the flow of blood through these organs, favoring infarction or stroke.

[Obs]

Those two compounds do 2 different thing. Nolvadex will compete for the receptor in the mammary gland stopping estrogen from binding to it fighting off gyno, if you run an AI aromasin it will lower circulating estrogen by stopping the excess test from aromatizing to excess estrogen. My suggestion would be to run ore cycle labs to determine your baseline and then run labs on cycle to determine what is going on. Take the guess work out

As bio said^^^

[Quester]

(DMirales Post)
^true
But, that is more of a benefit of not using an AI rather than the reason. I think the reason is just that things seems to trend.

[Obs]

If you dont want to run bloods I understand that too.
Keep nolvadex on hand.
If you start getting sensitive nipples or a knot run 10 mg per day.

Nolvadex is a SERM (selective estrogen recoptor modulator)
It does not lower estrogen. It merely fills the estrogen receptors in the mammary gland with the medicine so that the receptors cannot bind with estrogen.

Aromasin is an AI (aromatase inhibitor) it prevents the test from aromatising into estrogen.

Esyrogen can be beneficial to mass.
For some individuals, though not all that common, increased estrogen can cause sides that are hard to mitigate.

Though it can still be mitigated via other methods.

Personally I would get arimidex or aromasin and nolvadex.

You can start out on low dose AI a month into it or so, and slowly wean your way off it.

Regardless you will have nolva so if funny stuff starts happening and you lose libido or feel bad you can resume the AI and if nips do as I said before you can add in nolva.

Nolvadex is wise for any guy to keep around as is AI until you know how you react without them.

[Obs]

-Up until just recently, it was incredibly unusual to hear someone say they were going to run a cycle without an AI. The members of this forum have had great results running an AI as standard in every cycle for many many more years than anyone has been running without an AI.
-Perhaps both, AI, and no AI, have legitimate benefits and nothing is ever 100% one way until a few minutes ago and then 100% the opposite.

This is true but many of the guys didnt run AI even though that was said. GH did a poll on it and I was pretty shocked to see most advanced guys didnt use it for years. Even before the info went in that direction.

Its all individual specific and a guy must determine his need via trial and error.

Glad to see you around brother.
How is school?
You got it wrapped up now?

[Quester]

This is true but many of the guys didnt run AI even though that was said. GH did a poll on it and I was pretty shocked to see most advanced guys didnt use it for years. Even before the info went in that direction.

Its all individual specific and a guy must determine his need via trial and error.

Glad to see you around brother.
How is school?
You got it wrapped up now?

Thanks, school is finished. I pick up the diploma in a few weeks. While get my things together to apply for my license, and during the wait, I'm going back to my old construction job. Ironically, they are building 1) a hospital and 2) my oilfield certs for working with cranes is required. I'll be doing that for a few months in west Texas.
-
Shocking, at first, about people purporting to take but not actually taking the AI.
The lipid health aspect shouldn't be undervalued.

[Obs]

Thanks, school is finished. I pick up the diploma in a few weeks. While get my things together to apply for my license, and during the wait, I'm going back to my old construction job. Ironically, they are building 1) a hospital and 2) my oilfield certs for working with cranes is required. I'll be doing that for a few months in west Texas.
-
Shocking, at first, about people purporting to take but not actually taking the AI.
The lipid health aspect shouldn't be undervalued.

Congrats man!

[SuperDuty04]

Man you guys are such a huge help! OBS I’m indebted to you brother for bringing me here as well as being a mentor. All of this wasn’t some sort of NYE resolution, that never even crossed my mind. My health has really been concerning me and I finally just made up my mind to put in every effort to change things.

I’ve given up beer, have cut out the nightly glass of milk, no more sweets, my coffee is now black. My diet the last week has been grilled chicken and salmon. Though I did have a half of a baked potato with them.

I’ll be ordering my gear soon and have decided to start with two 10ml if test e or c, aromasin , nolva, and hcg . That way I’ll have onhand everything I may need.
My blood pressure has been running pretty high the last few months ever since I herniated my two disks. So definitely need to keep an eye on that.

My plan is to run my gear for either 30 or 60 days snd then go to my doc snd have him run a full blood test and see what needs to happen from there.

I did have a wellness check through work two months ago. Most things come back alright. The lady measured my waist around my belt so that was wrong. I wear a 36 jean so my waist definitely isn’t 40”.
Here’s part of it, I’ll have to see if i have access to the other two pages

[Gallowmere]

Building in some “road work” cardio will help with the BP, especially when on cycle.
When I started my current 500 test/300 deca /240 mast/50 dbol , my BP shot up into the 160/80 range. After just a couple of weeks of 150-160 HR cycling 2x/week, it’s down to 144/67 and getting better.

[SuperDuty04]

Yeah I’m gonna start working on my cardio. I’m a bit of a workaholic and stay very busy but I realize now that it’s completely different than getting your heart rate up there and breathing hard. Definitely need more exercise!

[GearHeaded]

So I’ve spent countless hours reading here as well as googling and it just makes me more confused. You see some very reputable BB’s say you absolutely shoukd run an AI and others say no way. Some say just have nolvadex on hand. But when googling it, I read how beneficial aromasin is and how it increases IGF-1.

I have a feeling I already have higher estrogen levels due to being overweight and always having a hard time putting on muscle. .

just a couple notes here based on what appears to be uninformed pre conceived notions.

you say that you think you always had high levels of estrogen and you connect that with you having a hard time putting on muscle .. well its just the opposite of that. having LOW estrogen would lead to having a hard time putting on muscle. having higher levels of estrogen would lead to putting on more muscle (one reason why guys like to run estrogenic compounds when bulking, cause the higher estrogen levels will help them grow better). Estrogen is an anabolic hormone and is extremely useful in the muscle building process.


also in regards to aromasin and IGF. I'm completely unfamiliar with any solid studies done on aromasin showing it increases IGF. biologically this does not make a whole lot of sense. because aromasin is going to DECREASE aromatization and estrogen, and estrogen is a hormone that plays a role in producing IGF (ie, hepatic IGF). the more estrogen you have the more IGF production capacity you have. taking a drug that decreases estrogen would have the opposite effect.
unless the drug being taken has some amount of liver toxicity. the liver will produce a small spike in IGF when being exposed to hepa toxic oral compounds (like AAS and other meds). this is likely what would be going on with aromasin

[GearHeaded]

in regards to Nolvadex vs Aromasin .. there is no comparison really.

Nolvadex IS an estrogen itself. it does not block you bodies ability to create estrogen via aromatization. as an estrogen Nolva will bind to certain estrogen receptors (selectively) and will occupy them yet not illicit any actual estrogenic activity.
your bodies natural ability to aromatize and produce its much needed estrogen is still in tact. your serum levels of estrogen can still elevate and give you all the benefits that come with that.

Aromasin on the other hand is an aromtase inhibitor that is going to keep your body from converting test into estrogen in the first place.
your serum levels of estrogen will therefore be limited. you will limit the benefits that come from elevated estrogen when androgen levels are elevated.
its like having a Ferrari and putting a top speed governor on it of 110mph . when the Ferrari could naturally go 190 safely all on its own.

the body has its own self governing mechanisms on how it deals with androgens and estrogen. it knows exactly how much test it needs to convert to estrogen. it will self regulate just fine.
thats why I'm not a fan of Aromasin

Nolvadex is better in that it does not hinder with the aromatization process itself and allows blood serum levels of estrogen to be where the body wants them to be

[SuperDuty04]

I’ve read countless posts by you, GH, and really value any and all input you have. I’m doing my best to learn as much as I can. It’s been difficult because you see so much conflicting info, post I read says to do xyz and I’ll have my mind made up, then the next post I read says xyz will do nothing but cause issues.

I was on a very high dose of testosterone before by my doc where my levels were around 1300-1400 IIRC. He also had me in HCG and I didn’t have really any issues. I remember my nips got a little sore but that was the extent of it.

I just assumed I was estrogen sensative because I’ve always had a very mild form of gyno, no matter what I’ve ever weighed it just seems my chest is bigger than most guys. And when i put on weight, i get even more so MOOBS. I obviously had higher test levels when I was young because I started growing lots of facial hair in 7th grade and by my freshman year had a full beard. I also have a very hairy chest and back (or would if the wifey didn’t shave it all)

But my new plan is to do 200mg of test twice a week with nothing else. I’ll see if I start getting any E issues where I’ll probably then just try nolva. If things get bad then I’ll introduce a low dose of aromasin and go from there. Not sure if I’ll start right off with hcg or wait a few weeks and then introduce it.
Once I see how my body does on the 400mg/week of test, I may move up to 500/week.

Thanks for your feedback!

[GearHeaded]

well it sounds like your on the right track and thinking things through.. just going to take a bit of trial and error to find what works for you.

keep in mind that 'estrogen sensitivity' and 'gyno propensity' are not necessarily 100% related. if your prone to gyno that does not mean your estrogen sensitive. its a separate genetic pre disposition. I'd say maybe 1 out of 10 guys are genetically pre disposed towards gyno, and they are going to deal with those issues no matter what they do (ultimately surgery is the only solution).
heck these same guys can end up getting gyno symptoms with low or even normal levels of estrogen (these are the same guys that get gyno From running tren when tren doesn't even convert to estrogen in the first place). this is more progestin related then estrogen related.


as for estrogen sensitivity. this is not all that common. some guys get brain fog, lethargy, anxiety, inability to sleep , and they auotmatically blame it on being estrogen sensitive.. when in reality its the elevated androgen levels causing the issues. they over react and start taking an AI in an attempt to counter react these negative side effects and it ends up getting worse (because now their androgen to estrogen levels are even farther apart and you'll get more of those androgenic sides).

most guys do better, perform better, sleep better, have better libido, etc. with higher levels of estrogen when androgens are high.
when you elevate androgen levels while simultaneously crushing estrogen levels, thats a hormonal nightmare.


back to your issue and gyno propensity..

MASTERON -- 'MASTeron.. "MAST" means "breast". it was developed to blunt estrogen and progestin receptors in breast tissue. its going to do this without effecting aromatization and crushing estrogen levels. all the while its going to be just as, or even more, anabolic then Testosterone itself.

definitely worth considering just running Mast with any of your exogenous Test or TRT protocols

[SuperDuty04]

well it sounds like your on the right track and thinking things through.. just going to take a bit of trial and error to find what works for you.

keep in mind that 'estrogen sensitivity' and 'gyno propensity' are not necessarily 100% related. if your prone to gyno that does not mean your estrogen sensitive. its a separate genetic pre disposition. I'd say maybe 1 out of 10 guys are genetically pre disposed towards gyno, and they are going to deal with those issues no matter what they do (ultimately surgery is the only solution).
heck these same guys can end up getting gyno symptoms with low or even normal levels of estrogen (these are the same guys that get gyno From running tren when tren doesn't even convert to estrogen in the first place). this is more progestin related then estrogen related.


as for estrogen sensitivity. this is not all that common. some guys get brain fog, lethargy, anxiety, inability to sleep , and they auotmatically blame it on being estrogen sensitive.. when in reality its the elevated androgen levels causing the issues. they over react and start taking an AI in an attempt to counter react these negative side effects and it ends up getting worse (because now their androgen to estrogen levels are even farther apart and you'll get more of those androgenic sides).

most guys do better, perform better, sleep better, have better libido, etc. with higher levels of estrogen when androgens are high.
when you elevate androgen levels while simultaneously crushing estrogen levels, thats a hormonal nightmare.


back to your issue and gyno propensity..

MASTERON -- 'MASTeron.. "MAST" means "breast". it was developed to blunt estrogen and progestin receptors in breast tissue. its going to do this without effecting aromatization and crushing estrogen levels. all the while its going to be just as, or even more, anabolic then Testosterone itself.

definitely worth considering just running Mast with any of your exogenous Test or TRT protocols

Damn you’re a wealth of information and an asset to this community!!!

I can get a mix that says 200mg test C and 200mg of mast E for total of 400mg. So do you think that would be a perfect starting point for me? Anything else I should have on hand JIC? And since it’s 400mg verses 250, should I do like one ml twice a week or .5 2x/week