No more orals for me

**bethdoth** · 02-11-2020, 02:04 PM

If anyone has been following my posts knows I have been having issues with each cycle I attempted over the past year. Tren and deca breathing issues, well I tried some orals Var and winny this fall/winter. I was feeling shitty, always tired and lethargic so I stopped. I went to the VA and got labs done about a week after I stopped the winny. My lab results indicate possible liver/kidney problems now. In my past 8 years of cycles and never doing orals I had no major problems with lab results ... till now.

Any input liver or kidneys?

**Test Monsterone** · 02-11-2020, 02:28 PM

The results are not bad, I mean you're barely out of range where you are out of range. There does seem to be an indication of some kidney trouble because of the higher-than-normal creatinine, and low Anion GAP. Low anion GAP is often caused by low levels of the albumin protein. This could be caused by liver and/or kidney damage. Your folate is also low, and is typically caused by not eating enough fruits and vegetables, especially citrus. It, however, can also be caused by some kidney dysfunction. Patients of dialysis display low folate.

Your MCH/Hemoglobin is low, which can be due to an iron deficiency, which might explain why your TIBC (the iron transporter) is high. Iron is required in the production of hemoglobin. Your body may be trying to compensate for the low iron/MCH by producing more carrier TIBC for the iron. These all seem to be interrelated.

Btw just from reading, most of these issues show "fatigue" as one of the first symptoms. I would just go back down to a healthy TRT for a while and see how your labs look, and then your next cycle stick to injectables and run labs again mid and post cycle.

**Proximal** · 02-11-2020, 02:30 PM

Can’t give you any constructive help, just saying I’m in a similar boat. Last year used var, Dbol & Adrol. My bilirubin ain’t dropping & has never been this high.

Going to try some supplements & God forbid, try to cut back my alcohol. But see ya to the orals & damn do I like my var.

**neloza** · 02-11-2020, 03:01 PM

I'm the opposite. Orals give me very small side effects. Especially winstrol . My liver values never get too elevated.

Some people just react differently.

**bethdoth** · 02-11-2020, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Test Monsterone

The results are not bad, I mean you're barely out of range where you are out of range. There does seem to be an indication of some kidney trouble because of the higher-than-normal creatinine, and low Anion GAP. Low anion GAP is often caused by low levels of the albumin protein. This could be caused by liver and/or kidney damage. Your folate is also low, and is typically caused by not eating enough fruits and vegetables, especially citrus. It, however, can also be caused by some kidney dysfunction. Patients of dialysis display low folate.

Your MCH/Hemoglobin is low, which can be due to an iron deficiency, which might explain why your TIBC (the iron transporter) is high. Iron is required in the production of hemoglobin. Your body may be trying to compensate for the low iron/MCH by producing more carrier TIBC for the iron. These all seem to be interrelated.

Btw just from reading, most of these issues show "fatigue" as one of the first symptoms. I would just go back down to a healthy TRT for a while and see how your labs look, and then your next cycle stick to injectables and run labs again mid and post cycle.

Thanks! That is what I was thinking. Since I stopped oral (ended 4 weeks early) I feel a lot better. Been just HRT for the past 3 weeks. Looks like I have some winny to give my friend!

**Test Monsterone** · 02-11-2020, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by bethdoth

Thanks! That is what I was thinking. Since I stopped oral (ended 4 weeks early) I feel a lot better. Been just HRT for the past 3 weeks. Looks like I have some winny to give my friend!

Happens to me all the time, there is a point of diminishing returns where you start feeling more like crap and the results are no longer worth it, even with injectables. Feels good to give the body a break though.

**KINGKONG** · 02-12-2020, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by cylon357

If it is any consolation (and it might not be), I have had my Creatinine come back out of range for what turned out to be no reason whatsoever. It was about like yours, just barely over range. I was on no meds of any kind at the time, it just came back out of range for some reason. Retested in 6 weeks and it was all good. Has not been out of range again since. That was about 6 years ago.

I'm assuming the orals were on top of TRT or were you blasting at the time?

Being how creatinine is a by product of a lot of the protein we consume..it would make sense for it to be outta range in a bodybuilder..I wouldn't sweat it too much..drinking more water should help..

“Men do never if seldom, rise from small beginnings to great heights...Except through fraud or force"
Niccolò Machiavelli

**KINGKONG** · 02-12-2020, 07:00 AM

I don't use orals much anyways..harder to control blood levels, most are liver toxic(to what degree I don't know), and they seem to mess up my head more then injectables, probably from inconsistent blood levels ..I will say, they build muscle well in me it seems
and I enjoy them..long term injectables are the healthier option for me..If I was jumping on stage, I think they would be a invaluable tool..

“Men do never if seldom, rise from small beginnings to great heights...Except through fraud or force"
Niccolò Machiavelli

**< <Samson> >** · 02-12-2020, 07:31 AM

At this point the only orals(aside from BJ’s) I stick to are Proviron , dBol & Var

Winni seems harsh

dBol & Var never gave me issues

Proviron I love for the extra added horny factor

I feel the above 3 are better off for me than my usual tren /mast combo

**bethdoth** · 02-12-2020, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by cylon357

If it is any consolation (and it might not be), I have had my Creatinine come back out of range for what turned out to be no reason whatsoever. It was about like yours, just barely over range. I was on no meds of any kind at the time, it just came back out of range for some reason. Retested in 6 weeks and it was all good. Has not been out of range again since. That was about 6 years ago.

I'm assuming the orals were on top of TRT or were you blasting at the time?

Last summer July time frame I did just VAR oral at 40mg daily. Then October November I did about 5 weeks of whinney 50mg daily and low dose deca . Whinney made my joints and degenerative arthritis in my back hurt bad, even with the 200MG deca a week. During all these time frames I bumped up my TRT to 100mg every 3.5days vise my normal 80mg every 3.5days. So as you can see I wasn't really going crazy.

Like people always say each person will respond to these drugs differently. Well I feel I have a low tolerance for drugs. I can't take the stronger pain meds because it causes my heart rate to drop, my BP to drop (last time it was something like 90/50), I get chalky white, and start to sweat profusely. Just not worth it. I think i need to wait till all my blood work is good for atleast 3-4 months then go back to what was working just fine. Low dose 200mg a week tren ace and 200mg test cyp a week for 8 weeks. Or probably better decision at 59 year young just stop cycling and do it the old way workout, eat clean and live a healthy life! But, I do love the dry full look of tren!

**bethdoth** · 02-12-2020, 11:34 AM

My daughter is a nurse and I sent the lab results to her. Do you think that since I have been on HRT for 8 years and the past couple years I have kept my total test up at or just above the upper range of the lab (300-1100) that production of red blood cells could be an issue. My RBC has been high, MCV low and RDW high the past couple years? I went back and looked at all my labs over the past 8 years and all the things that are either high or low in the last set of labs has been right on the edge of the range for the past couple years.
I wonder if I should back my HRT down to 140mg a week?