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Thread: First cycle

  1. #1
    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    First cycle

    I am just about to start my first cycle. Given the knowledge on this site, I was hoping to get some reaction from my proposed protocol; any pro's or con's with the regime and just feedback in general - things to be aware of once I get started. I have studied extensively prior to putting this together and am looking forward to seeing what results I can achieve.

    I'm 38, 6 foot tall and currently weigh around 95kgs. Background in rugby and athletics (waaaay back in the day) so have a generally decent build, although carrying a bit of bf currently - picture for reference.

    I've decided to run the following: 12 week cycle of Test E.

    300mg every 3.5 days
    hcg @ 500iu per week
    0.25mg Arimidex every other day (14 weeks)

    4 week PCT regime (2 weeks after final pin):

    WK1: 75mg Clomid & 40mg Nolvadex daily
    WK2-4: 50mg Cl & 20mg Nolv daily

    Questions I have are:

    Should I pin the hcG sub-q on its own (insulin needle in the belly fat) or stack it in the with the test IM pin once a week?

    Best to start the hcG straight away or introduce after a few weeks?

    Will I be running enough AI?

    How does the PCT protocol look?

    Any suggestions, information, advice, warnings - all welcome and greatly appreciated.

    Thanks in advance,
    M
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails First cycle-physique-21-3-20.jpg  
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    Sub Q on the hcg . (250 x 2 could be a starting point as well)
    Too heavy on the AI in my opinion. Any history of gyno? I’ve never had to use one, everyone is different though. Estrogen is a good thing.
    BF is higher than a “bit”. What’s your goal?

    PCT is the cookie cutter version and will be fine. Recovery might be tougher at 38. Stay the course during PCT regardless of mood (in regards to your diet and motivation, they will dwindle).

    Best of luck!

    Looks fine other wise
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    What does your training and nutrition protocol look like? How long have you been back in the gym on a regular basis? And as @SampsonandDelilah asked above, what is your goal?
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    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the information. So just pin the hcG when i'm pinning the test? With regards to the AI, I had settled on 0.25mg EOD due to my medical background - I have very low natural T and zero sperm production due to side effects from chemotherapy. FSH is extremely high. Guessing this probably reduces my need for hcg but as this is my first cycle, I wanted to follow as normal a protocol as possible. Happy for feedback on this?

    Appreciate that bf is high - I find it difficult to shift as have a feeling that my endocrine system doesn't help with this. Training regime is good, split up between upper and lower, push/pull sessions. HIIT cardio daily also.

    Goal is to add lean mass and strip bf. That's it.

    I'm planning on updating this thread once I begin, with my thoughts on how the training, mood, nutrition side of things are going. Will also add pictures at weeks 4, 8 and 12 for reference.

    Please keep an eye on here as I'd appreciate any ongoing advice and critique.

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    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    What does your training and nutrition protocol look like? How long have you been back in the gym on a regular basis? And as @SampsonandDelilah asked above, what is your goal?
    Goal is to add lean mass and shed as much bf as I can. Nutrition will be 1600 calories daily, with as close to 200g made up of protein. Training is 2 upper and 2 lower sessions weekly, 1 push and 1 pull. Rest day in the week and weekend will be free styling. Been training consistently for around 12 months. Had a bilateral hip replacement 2 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyMoo View Post
    Goal is to add lean mass and shed as much bf as I can. Nutrition will be 1600 calories daily, with as close to 200g made up of protein. Training is 2 upper and 2 lower sessions weekly, 1 push and 1 pull. Rest day in the week and weekend will be free styling. Been training consistently for around 12 months. Had a bilateral hip replacement 2 years ago.
    1600 calories a day doesn't seem like very much. Do you know your TDEE?

    I don't know where you live (I'm guessing NOT in the US, since KG and all), but have you thought about TRT, either prescribed or self directed? That seems like a good way to get your feet wet with the compounds you mentioned without having to commit to a cycle. If you can do the TRT regimen for a while (say a year or two), then maybe you could think about committing to a cycle.

    In short, I think you could get a lot out of TRT without jumping directly to cycling.

    I base that last thought on my own situation. I am an HRT'er who at some point will marry the needle. I feel sure of that. BUT, I personally won't cycle until my nutrition, life style, condition and training are locked in and committed. To me, that means 2+ years of having all those things dialed in. 2+ years of consistent training and keeping my bodyfat at the 15% range. It's not that I feel cycling is 'cheating' or anything, it's just that I want to maximize my potential benefits.

    Just my 2 cents (and likely overpriced at that)
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    Windex is offline Staff ~ HRT Optimization Specialist
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    Do you have access to a gym for this cycle?

    1600 calories is what bikini girls eat, your diet is missing food.

    Arimidex is a cancer drug, the dose your proposing in relation to the Test dose will chemically castrate you. Drop the AI

    Up the testosterone or add a mild anabolic like EQ, Primo or Anavar

    Body fat looks 20% or more. I would focus on diet and being structured before cycling.
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    -If you stick with the Adex then go with .25 every 3rd day (e3d). In 2015, my first TRT doc prescribed 1mg eod. The guy was an idiot but I learned, primarily from here, to go with less which, I took from day 1.
    -For the first few years I took .5 e3d but my bp was elevated so I switched to .25 e3d. I noticed a more consistent mood, and bp lower. I'm now taking .5 once-a-week only because I can't find it at a lower dosage and I do feel a less consistent mood. {Side note: I'm going to fix this now that I think of it.}
    -At your body fat, you'll need to consider a higher dose range than what a person who is cycling normally has to consider. ...Hint, wait and get your bf down.
    -You can switch the arimidex (Anastrozol) for Aromasin (Exemestne). 1mg of Anastrozole = 25mg Exemestane but Exemestane is stronger. Exemestane doesn't directly affect bp like Anastrozole and positively affects SHBG.
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    You said you have low T, do you have your numbers?

    You will most likely get what your looking for in this cycle and also lose when your done.

    If you dont have blood work get it done and make an educated decision from there.

    If you do in fact have low T TRT would definitely give you what your looking for with a decent diet and moderate training.

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    Hi, I'm 39 and new on this. Never had steroids before. My question is: why recovery is harder ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrispersel View Post
    Hi, I'm 39 and new on this. Never had steroids before. My question is: why recovery is harder ?
    You should do some reading in the stickies and create your own thread for best responses.
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    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    1600 calories a day doesn't seem like very much. Do you know your TDEE?

    I don't know where you live (I'm guessing NOT in the US, since KG and all), but have you thought about TRT, either prescribed or self directed? That seems like a good way to get your feet wet with the compounds you mentioned without having to commit to a cycle. If you can do the TRT regimen for a while (say a year or two), then maybe you could think about committing to a cycle.

    In short, I think you could get a lot out of TRT without jumping directly to cycling.

    I base that last thought on my own situation. I am an HRT'er who at some point will marry the needle. I feel sure of that. BUT, I personally won't cycle until my nutrition, life style, condition and training are locked in and committed. To me, that means 2+ years of having all those things dialed in. 2+ years of consistent training and keeping my bodyfat at the 15% range. It's not that I feel cycling is 'cheating' or anything, it's just that I want to maximize my potential benefits.

    Just my 2 cents (and likely overpriced at that)
    Maintenance for me is around 2700 calories.

    I've looked into TRT however had a really disappointing meeting with Endocrinologist. This is something i've been mulling over and researching since my rehab and, given I'm going to have a lot of time on my hands in the coming weeks what with the COVID-19 Apocalypse, figured this was as good a time as any to see what I can achieve.

    I certainly don't have a guilt or cheating feeling about it at all. My natural T is shot to pieces and has been since I finished my treatment. It's affected every aspect of my life and now is the right time for me to give this a shot. I have a background in competitive sport so experienced with strict training and nutritional programmes. Albeit some time ago.

    Thank you for your comments, I really appreciate you taking the time. Plan is to update this thread as I go with updates and questions etc so would welcome you keeping an eye.

    Cheers,
    M

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    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windex View Post
    Do you have access to a gym for this cycle?

    1600 calories is what bikini girls eat, your diet is missing food.

    Arimidex is a cancer drug, the dose your proposing in relation to the Test dose will chemically castrate you. Drop the AI

    Up the testosterone or add a mild anabolic like EQ, Primo or Anavar

    Body fat looks 20% or more. I would focus on diet and being structured before cycling.
    Gym has just been shut down due to COVID-19 pandemic. I decided against stacking anything with the test as it's my first cycle - I'm looking at it like TRT given my low natural production. All the research I've done has included the important of an AI yet you are recommending dropping it. Why?

    Yes I'm definitely fat but confident in the training and nutrition regime I will be following during cycle.

    Any pointers or things that I need to be aware of / look out for when I get going? All will be much appreciated.

    M

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    Quote Originally Posted by xxblazenlowxx View Post
    You said you have low T, do you have your numbers?

    You will most likely get what your looking for in this cycle and also lose when your done.

    If you dont have blood work get it done and make an educated decision from there.

    If you do in fact have low T TRT would definitely give you what your looking for with a decent diet and moderate training.
    First cycle-test-oct-2019.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyMoo View Post
    Gym has just been shut down due to COVID-19 pandemic. I decided against stacking anything with the test as it's my first cycle - I'm looking at it like TRT given my low natural production. All the research I've done has included the important of an AI yet you are recommending dropping it. Why?

    Yes I'm definitely fat but confident in the training and nutrition regime I will be following during cycle.

    Any pointers or things that I need to be aware of / look out for when I get going? All will be much appreciated.

    M

    They’re often over prescribed and the data around them is somewhat antiquated, especially the dosing. Quester makes some great recommendations. Estrogen is essential for growth, mood, libido and erections. Crushing it with too much of an AI can do much more harm than good. It’s better to see where you are naturally with labs and to monitor it along the way. Unfortunately we all metabolize so differently so with something like estrogen blockage, it’s hard to come up with a standardized formula. I’m of the opinion that less is more, you can always up your dosage if necessary. Take bloods along the way.

    Hormone levels decrease with age which can make recovery more difficult. With exogenous hormones your body halts it’s natural production. Jump starting it again can get trickier...like all things when you get older. It’s why many men choose the TRT route and move into a blasting phase after they’ve normalized on a routine on hormone replacement. Blasting too soon can skew your results in terms of appropriate levels and reducing symptoms associated with low T
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    Quote Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah View Post
    They’re often over prescribed and the data around them is somewhat antiquated, especially the dosing. Quester makes some great recommendations. Estrogen is essential for growth, mood, libido and erections. Crushing it with too much of an AI can do much more harm than good. It’s better to see where you are naturally with labs and to monitor it along the way. Unfortunately we all metabolize so differently so with something like estrogen blockage, it’s hard to come up with a standardized formula. I’m of the opinion that less is more, you can always up your dosage if necessary. Take bloods along the way.

    Hormone levels decrease with age which can make recovery more difficult. With exogenous hormones your body halts it’s natural production. Jump starting it again can get trickier...like all things when you get older. It’s why many men choose the TRT route and move into a blasting phase after they’ve normalized on a routine on hormone replacement. Blasting too soon can skew your results in terms of appropriate levels and reducing symptoms associated with low T
    Okay that makes sense to me. Leave the adex initially, get a feel for how I'm reacting and dose if needed?

    Yeah I hear you with the TRT. I did look into it and was sure I was a candidate - the consultant Haematologist who looked after my chemo regime even introduced me to the Endocrinologist. However we had differing opinions. Private clinics were way to expensive so this just seemed to be a natural choice. I appreciate it's not ideal but I'm willing to try.

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    Yes, keep some nolvadex in hand as well in case you get a flare up....but I would follow Questers advice and look into Aromasin . Can alter from there if necessary. Your BF% could potentially drive estrogen sides which is why guys say to lower it before you start. Any gyno as a kid? Just have to be vigilant of you don’t get lab work.
    You should consider finding another doctor. In the US, they’re a dime a dozen. I would focus on symptoms...lethargy, libido, mood. The range is just a range.
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    If you start exogenous testosterone , at a TRT dose, you will produce more estrogen than you do now. Get bloodwork before you start anything to use as a baseline.
    This creates questions that few on here can answer.
    1-Raise test and keep estrogen in the same range?
    2-Is SHBG the key?
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    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quester View Post
    If you start exogenous testosterone , at a TRT dose, you will produce more estrogen than you do now. Get bloodwork before you start anything to use as a baseline.
    This creates questions that few on here can answer.
    1-Raise test and keep estrogen in the same range?
    2-Is SHBG the key?
    Thank you Quester, so Aromasin is a better idea than Arimidex , given my predisposition. What dose would you recommend and would you start it immediately?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah View Post
    Yes, keep some nolvadex in hand as well in case you get a flare up....but I would follow Questers advice and look into Aromasin . Can alter from there if necessary. Your BF% could potentially drive estrogen sides which is why guys say to lower it before you start. Any gyno as a kid? Just have to be vigilant of you don’t get lab work.
    You should consider finding another doctor. In the US, they’re a dime a dozen. I would focus on symptoms...lethargy, libido, mood. The range is just a range.
    No gyno that I can remember? Most recent bloods were done 2 months ago:

    White blood cell (WBC) count 5.6 x10^9/L 4.0-11.0
    Haemoglobin (Hb) 150 g/L 130-180
    Platelet (PLT) count 204 x10^9/L 150-400
    Red blood cell (RBC) count 4.67 x10^12/L 4.50-6.00
    Haematocrit (Hct) 0.44 L/L 0.40-0.52
    Mean cell volume (MCV) 94 fL 80-100
    Mean cell haemoglobin (MCH) 32.1 pg 27.0-33.0
    Red cell distribution width (RDW) 13.5 % 11.0-14.8
    Neutrophil count 3.2 x10^9/L 1.7-7.5
    Lymphocyte count 1.9 x10^9/L 1.0-4.5
    Monocyte count 0.3 x10^9/L 0.2-0.8
    Eosinophil count 0.1 x10^9/L 0.0-0.4
    Basophil count 0.0 x10^9/L 0.0-0.1
    Nucleated red blood cell (NRBC) count 0.0 x10^9/L

    Test Requested : Testosterone ( by MS) (B3728)

    Test Undertaken : Testosterone ( by MS) (B3728) Sample Type: SER-GEL [CAV: Denise Jones - 05.02.2020 11:52]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Testosterone (by MS) 12.5 nmol/L 8.0-30.0


    Test Undertaken : FSH (B3045) Sample Type: SER-GEL [CAV: Sarah Tennant - 03.02.2020 11:33]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    FSH 22.7 IU/L * 1.0-12.0


    Test Undertaken : LH (B3058) Sample Type: SER-GEL [CAV: 4BVAMS2 AMS Results - 31.01.2020 18:10]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    LH 4.7 IU/L 1.0-12.0


    Test Undertaken : Prolactin (B3072) Sample Type: SER-GEL [CAV: 4BVAMS2 AMS Results - 31.01.2020 18:10]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Prolactin 228 mU/L 73-407


    Test Undertaken : Electrolyte Profile (B5373) Sample Type: SER-GEL [CAV: 4BVAMS2 AMS Results - 31.01.2020 11:56]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Sodium 138 mmol/L 133-146
    Potassium 4.8 mmol/L 3.5-5.3
    Creatinine 118 umol/L * 58-110
    Estimated GFR 60 ml/min/1.73m2


    Test Undertaken : Liver function test (B3062) Sample Type: SER-GEL [CAV: 4BVAMS2 AMS Results - 31.01.2020 11:56]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Bilirubin 21 umol/L * <21
    Protein 69 g/L 60-80
    Albumin 46 g/L 35-50
    Globulin 23 g/L 22-43
    Alkaline phosphatase 57 U/L 30-150
    Alanine transaminase 13 U/L <59


    Test Undertaken : Bone profile (B3022) Sample Type: SER-GEL [CAV: 4BVAMS2 AMS Results - 31.01.2020 11:56]
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Calcium 2.51 mmol/L
    Calcium (adjusted) 2.40 mmol/L 2.20-2.60
    Protein 69 g/L 60-80
    Albumin 46 g/L 35-50
    Globulin 23 g/L 22-43
    Phosphate 0.73 mmol/L * 0.80-1.50
    Alkaline phosphatase 57 U/L 30-150

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    Here are the numbers I would like to see BEFORE starting a cycle or TRT, were it me in your shoes:
    Total and Free T
    E2 Sensitive (sometimes called ultra sensitive)
    SHBG
    DHT
    LH and FSH you have (holy crap on the FSH!)
    PSA (personal preference but not necessary)

    There may be a few others, but those are the big ones that come to mind right now. I think there is a sticky somewhere on the exact ones to get. After you start, you can drop LH and FSH because those will trend to 0.

    I REALLY think TRT doses would be a good place for you to start. You could start on the high side if you want (like 200mg / week) but I think you are going to encounter unwanted sides if you jump right into a cycle right now. Maybe get familiar with the term 'blast and cruise', too.

    BTW, nothing I'm saying here is meant to be insulting, and I'm far from an expert, so take what I'm saying with those caveats.

    Good luck with whatever you decide!

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    BTW, lots of solid advice from a lot of good, knowledgeable folks in the responses here. This is the best damn support network I have found, period.
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    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    Here are the numbers I would like to see BEFORE starting a cycle or TRT, were it me in your shoes:
    Total and Free T
    E2 Sensitive (sometimes called ultra sensitive)
    SHBG
    DHT
    LH and FSH you have (holy crap on the FSH!)
    PSA (personal preference but not necessary)

    There may be a few others, but those are the big ones that come to mind right now. I think there is a sticky somewhere on the exact ones to get. After you start, you can drop LH and FSH because those will trend to 0.

    I REALLY think TRT doses would be a good place for you to start. You could start on the high side if you want (like 200mg / week) but I think you are going to encounter unwanted sides if you jump right into a cycle right now. Maybe get familiar with the term 'blast and cruise', too.

    BTW, nothing I'm saying here is meant to be insulting, and I'm far from an expert, so take what I'm saying with those caveats.

    Good luck with whatever you decide!
    Cheers bud. The fact that you are taking the time to share your advice and experience is far from insulting - I genuinely appreciate it.

    Ok then, I have Test E 300 on the way so if I go with 0.5ml, twice a week and hold off on the AI initially, does that sound like more of a sensible option? Stick with the current PCT? I'm going to try and get my hands on Aromasin also as the point you made about SHBG is a good one.

    It's going to be difficult getting the bloods atm with the pandemic, but there was nothing concerning in the January markers - FSH aside. I will look into it though, thanks for that.

    Re sides, best ways to combat these if and when they arise?

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    Windex is offline Staff ~ HRT Optimization Specialist
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    If you don't have access to a gym or a home gym of sorts the rest is moot point for cycling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyMoo View Post
    Cheers bud. The fact that you are taking the time to share your advice and experience is far from insulting - I genuinely appreciate it.

    Ok then, I have Test E 300 on the way so if I go with 0.5ml, twice a week and hold off on the AI initially, does that sound like more of a sensible option? Stick with the current PCT? I'm going to try and get my hands on Aromasin also as the point you made about SHBG is a good one.

    It's going to be difficult getting the bloods atm with the pandemic, but there was nothing concerning in the January markers - FSH aside. I will look into it though, thanks for that.

    Re sides, best ways to combat these if and when they arise?

    At those doses sides should be negligible. Water retention, high BP, edema and always the potential for gyno. Most are due to estrogen overload. That’s why labs are critical otherwise you’re shooting in the dark, but they’re the ones you should be looking out for.

    Potential changes in mood, libido and ED as well. Again estrogen is key here. Some handle it well, others don’t. No broad brush.

    Have to self monitor, be vigilant and have all ancillaries on hand.

    PCT is fine. I’d rather run TRT fro life then ever take clomid again. But that’s just me.

    Be mindful during PCT, you’ll be going from feeling like Superman to a mere mortal. You have to push through and eat and lift even when you don’t want.

    Good luck
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    Quote Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah View Post
    At those doses sides should be negligible. Water retention, high BP, edema and always the potential for gyno. Most are due to estrogen overload. That’s why labs are critical otherwise you’re shooting in the dark, but they’re the ones you should be looking out for.

    Potential changes in mood, libido and ED as well. Again estrogen is key here. Some handle it well, others don’t. No broad brush.

    Have to self monitor, be vigilant and have all ancillaries on hand.

    PCT is fine. I’d rather run TRT fro life then ever take clomid again. But that’s just me.

    Be mindful during PCT, you’ll be going from feeling like Superman to a mere mortal. You have to push through and eat and lift even when you don’t want.

    Good luck
    Cheers for that. Been looking into Aromasin and lots of advice is to run it as PCT due to it's ability to increase endogenous T and IGF-1. Any opinions on it?

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    Have never seen Aromasin as a PCT med, but it’s been 1/2 a decade since I’ve run a PCT, so my advice is limited there. Generally what I continue to see is Nolva, Clomid and Hcg . Doesn’t mean guys aren’t using it, I’m just not versed in it.

    I used to utilize it whilst on cycle but learned later it was unnecessary and potentially inhibiting my gains by crushing my estrogen. I never ran an AI or SERM again while on and always felt better. Then at 39 I started TRT and have never looked back.

    As I said earlier, it’s hard to make a recipe everyone can follow because all of our ovens are different.

    I would start low and slow with an AI and be mindful of my body, be cognizant of my nipples, BP and whether you’re holding too much water. Without labs, you’ll have to self check and as I said be vigilant. With your history, I really think TRT would be a viable option but recognize your hesitation in looking for another doctor.

    Test only cycles with an AI and SERM on hand with Nolva and clomid for PCT had been used countless times and I’m sure that more than a few got their start there.

    At some point you just gotta take the plunge


    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyMoo View Post
    Cheers for that. Been looking into Aromasin and lots of advice is to run it as PCT due to it's ability to increase endogenous T and IGF-1. Any opinions on it?
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah View Post
    Have never seen Aromasin as a PCT med, but it’s been 1/2 a decade since I’ve run a PCT, so my advice is limited there. Generally what I continue to see is Nolva, Clomid and Hcg . Doesn’t mean guys aren’t using it, I’m just not versed in it.

    I used to utilize it whilst on cycle but learned later it was unnecessary and potentially inhibiting my gains by crushing my estrogen. I never ran an AI or SERM again while on and always felt better. Then at 39 I started TRT and have never looked back.

    As I said earlier, it’s hard to make a recipe everyone can follow because all of our ovens are different.

    I would start low and slow with an AI and be mindful of my body, be cognizant of my nipples, BP and whether you’re holding too much water. Without labs, you’ll have to self check and as I said be vigilant. With your history, I really think TRT would be a viable option but recognize your hesitation in looking for another doctor.

    Test only cycles with an AI and SERM on hand with Nolva and clomid for PCT had been used countless times and I’m sure that more than a few got their start there.

    At some point you just gotta take the plunge
    I've done some more fact finding-based on the feedback from you guys on this thread and have decided to change tack. I am going to run a trt level of test E (150mg, twice a week) together with 500iu hcg (2 x 250iu subq) and 25mg aromasin eod. 10 weeks. I've got arimidex , clomid and nolvadex on hand if necessary. Going to try and arrange bloods before and after.

    Hopefully this will give me a good indication about how sensitive I am to the different compounds and experience in dealing with them. If all goes well, I can switch it up for a 'blast' in the knowledge that I have prepped my mind and body.

    Will update this thread with my thoughts and experiences throughout, and I'm sure I'll have some questions - only one or two - if you don't mind..

  29. #29
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    Some really good info in this thread

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyMoo View Post
    I've done some more fact finding-based on the feedback from you guys on this thread and have decided to change tack. I am going to run a trt level of test E (150mg, twice a week) together with 500iu hcg (2 x 250iu subq) and 25mg aromasin eod. 10 weeks. I've got arimidex , clomid and nolvadex on hand if necessary. Going to try and arrange bloods before and after.

    Hopefully this will give me a good indication about how sensitive I am to the different compounds and experience in dealing with them. If all goes well, I can switch it up for a 'blast' in the knowledge that I have prepped my mind and body.

    Will update this thread with my thoughts and experiences throughout, and I'm sure I'll have some questions - only one or two - if you don't mind..
    I'm not sure anybody would call 300mg/week TRT levels... Docs in the US will normally start people out with 50 to 100 per week and adjust from there. 200 is what I think of as the high end of TRT, though I'm sure there are other schools of thought.

    I don't have experience with Aromasin (yet), but if the above math is correct (1mg adex = 25 mg Aromasin), then that AI dosage is too much. Crushing your E is no fun and counterproductive.

    We are all paranoid at one time or another about gyno but tanking your E will undo many of the positives associated with your efforts.

    I would recommend:
    start with good labs
    no more than 200mg test per week
    reduce the aromasin to 12.5 mg PER WEEK, probably as 6.25 mg 2x / week
    run a longer time frame than 10 weeks
    get labs at the 60 day mark to assess response and adjust dosages as needed
    leave everything else as is.

    I know it sounds like I'm pushing a TRT regimen, and it should because I am. Based on your recent training history, nutrition and everything going on with Covid-19, starting your first cycle now is just a Bad Idea. Check out some of the other threads here: experienced cyclers are deferring their cycles because of Covid-19. A lot of them are likely to cruise at TRT doses because those can be maintained indefinitely.

    Listen, I get it: if you want to cycle, you're going to cycle. Just know that you likely won't be able to maximize your benefits right now.

    Good luck with whatever path you choose! And please do keep us updated.
    Last edited by cylon357; 03-28-2020 at 09:17 AM.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    I'm not sure anybody would call 300mg/week TRT levels... Docs in the US will normally start people out with 50 to 100 per week and adjust from there. 200 is what I think of as the high end of TRT, though I'm sure there are other schools of thought.

    I don't have experience with Aromasin (yet), but if the above math is correct (1mg adex = 25 mg Aromasin), then that AI dosage is too much. Crushing your E is no fun and counterproductive.

    We are all paranoid at one time or another about gyno but tanking your E will undo many of the positives associated with your efforts.

    I would recommend:
    start with good labs
    no more than 200mg test per week
    reduce the aromasin to 12.5 mg PER WEEK, probably as 6.25 mg 2x / week
    run a longer time frame than 10 weeks
    get labs at the 60 day mark to assess response and adjust dosages as needed
    leave everything else as is.

    I know it sounds like I'm pushing a TRT regimen, and it should because I am. Based on your recent training history, nutrition and everything going on with Covid-19, starting your first cycle now is just a Bad Idea. Check out some of the other threads here: experienced cyclers are deferring their cycles because of Covid-19. A lot of them are likely to cruise at TRT doses because those can be maintained indefinitely.

    Listen, I get it: if you want to cycle, you're going to cycle. Just know that you likely won't be able to maximize your benefits right now.

    Good luck with whatever path you choose! And please do keep us updated.
    Thank you for the input bud. Can i ask what your source material is for the Aromasin dosage? The reason I ask, I based my numbers on a thread on here by 'Jimmyinkedup'

    https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...rdosed-ai.html

    The points that he made where interesting but the thread itself played out quite nicely, with others giving their opinions and personal experiences on it. Some agreed, some opposed - i guess as this is a first for me, I need to try and work out what is going to work best?

    Also, the Exemestane that I ordered has come in 20mg tabs, and they are tiny and film-coated. I've got a pill cutter but would be surprised if it worked on these.

    The issue I have with the labs is that all medical personnel are being redirected by the NHS to help combat the C19 spread - no labs over here are available currently.

    Another thing - the vial that my hcg came in (5000iu) wouldn't hold 5ml of bac water; reckon I got around 4ml in there. Just to sanity check - 1ml is now 1250iu so if i want to take 250iu subq, twice per week, it's 0.2ml per pin. Right?

    I have test e 300 so the lowest realistic (accurate) dose I reckon I can take will be 0.3ml (100mg), twice weekly. Given my size, do you not think that this is an acceptable level for me to run initially?

  32. #32
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    My thoughts on exemestane dosage are based on the ratio put forward above that 1mg adex = 25mg exemestane. I do not have experience with exemestane but do with adex. At the T doses, I'm recommending, you might not need an AI at all.

    HCG math looks accurate.

    At 300mg / ml, you could dose .16 ml easy. Dr John Crisler suggested subq for doses that small. That would start you at roughly 100mg per week if you dose twice. I will defer to others on subq vs im, though.

    I've spoken on this all I can, that is, we have reached the extent of my knowledge, the vast majority of which has been acquired here. At 38, you are starting to become a trt candidate anyhow. Starting a cycle now, if you don't have access to a gym due to covid-19, is just a really bad idea. That is going to set yourself up for failure and likely negative sides. But what the heck, if you want to do it go for it!

    Trt doses on the other hand are runnable for life. If you are headed that way anyhow, then this seems like a perfect time to start down that road and save your first cycle for a time more likely to be successful.

    Good luck
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    I'm not sure anybody would call 300mg/week TRT levels... Docs in the US will normally start people out with 50 to 100 per week and adjust from there. 200 is what I think of as the high end of TRT, though I'm sure there are other schools of thought.

    I don't have experience with Aromasin (yet), but if the above math is correct (1mg adex = 25 mg Aromasin), then that AI dosage is too much. Crushing your E is no fun and counterproductive.

    We are all paranoid at one time or another about gyno but tanking your E will undo many of the positives associated with your efforts.

    I would recommend:
    start with good labs
    no more than 200mg test per week
    reduce the aromasin to 12.5 mg PER WEEK, probably as 6.25 mg 2x / week
    run a longer time frame than 10 weeks
    get labs at the 60 day mark to assess response and adjust dosages as needed
    leave everything else as is.

    I know it sounds like I'm pushing a TRT regimen, and it should because I am. Based on your recent training history, nutrition and everything going on with Covid-19, starting your first cycle now is just a Bad Idea. Check out some of the other threads here: experienced cyclers are deferring their cycles because of Covid-19. A lot of them are likely to cruise at TRT doses because those can be maintained indefinitely.

    Listen, I get it: if you want to cycle, you're going to cycle. Just know that you likely won't be able to maximize your benefits right now.

    Good luck with whatever path you choose! And please do keep us updated.
    You guys are wayyy more cautious then we used to be lol
    Diet/ exercise then jump on some test 400mgs a week ....you will see results. Pct as suggested

  34. #34
    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    My thoughts on exemestane dosage are based on the ratio put forward above that 1mg adex = 25mg exemestane. I do not have experience with exemestane but do with adex. At the T doses, I'm recommending, you might not need an AI at all.

    HCG math looks accurate.

    At 300mg / ml, you could dose .16 ml easy. Dr John Crisler suggested subq for doses that small. That would start you at roughly 100mg per week if you dose twice. I will defer to others on subq vs im, though.

    I've spoken on this all I can, that is, we have reached the extent of my knowledge, the vast majority of which has been acquired here. At 38, you are starting to become a trt candidate anyhow. Starting a cycle now, if you don't have access to a gym due to covid-19, is just a really bad idea. That is going to set yourself up for failure and likely negative sides. But what the heck, if you want to do it go for it!

    Trt doses on the other hand are runnable for life. If you are headed that way anyhow, then this seems like a perfect time to start down that road and save your first cycle for a time more likely to be successful.

    Good luck

    ***UPDATE***

    Alright then - I've taken some time to think things over based predominantly on the advice (mostly yours Cylon - I really appreciate it bud, genuinely thank you) within this thread , which has then prompted further research. It appears that the TRT route (in the first instance) is the best option for me, given my medical history and current standing physically.

    I started this week - Monday morning was my first pin, and again last night. I'm running test e @ 100mg along with roughly 250iu hcg. No AI for now. Both pins in the left glute, no PIP or discomfort whatsoever, so far (the scar from my hip replacement does a pretty good job of giving me a target!). hcg subq into the belly, again no problems to report.

    So I guess that kills this thread for now. When the world returns to normal, I'll hopefully be better placed to make a decision on cycling properly. If and when I do decide to go ahead, I will come back here and pick up again.

    Thanks to all who have taken the time to shoot some advice and personal experience my way.

    Cheers,
    M



    First cycle-hip-scar.jpg
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  35. #35
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    That’s a hell of a scar and a hell of a plan. Best of luck and I applaud your thoughtfulness and decision.

    Cheers

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeyMoo View Post
    ***UPDATE***

    Alright then - I've taken some time to think things over based predominantly on the advice (mostly yours Cylon - I really appreciate it bud, genuinely thank you) within this thread , which has then prompted further research. It appears that the TRT route (in the first instance) is the best option for me, given my medical history and current standing physically.

    I started this week - Monday morning was my first pin, and again last night. I'm running test e @ 100mg along with roughly 250iu hcg . No AI for now. Both pins in the left glute, no PIP or discomfort whatsoever, so far (the scar from my hip replacement does a pretty good job of giving me a target!). hcg subq into the belly, again no problems to report.

    So I guess that kills this thread for now. When the world returns to normal, I'll hopefully be better placed to make a decision on cycling properly. If and when I do decide to go ahead, I will come back here and pick up again.

    Thanks to all who have taken the time to shoot some advice and personal experience my way.

    Cheers,
    M


    You might be able to subq those doses to make things a little easier. Dr John believed that TRT doses administered subq were about 20% more effective than IM.

    Get comfortable with the term 'blast and cruise', because I'm betting you will be hooked and not come off. At least that saves on PCT drugs

    Good luck, brother!
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  37. #37
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    **UPDATE**

    Hope everyone is keeping well?

    It's week 11 of my test e 'trt' cruise so just wanted to check in with my recent bloods - picture attached. How do those numbers look?

    I feel great personally, strength gains have been consistent and my physique is noticeably fuller. Therapeutic dose of deca was introduced to the protocol on week 5.

    Is there anything that I can consider which will help me shed this belly fat? I've dropped at least 5% bf but still way too high.

    All help, advice and suggestions welcome.

    Cheers,
    M

    First cycle-bloods-16-06-20.png

  38. #38
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    I'm not sure but I THINK deca can skew your numbers. If not, those numbers are high for trt.

  39. #39
    MikeyMoo is offline New Member
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    Based on the E number though, no need to introduce any sort of AI?

    LH is super low - should that be a concern?

    Prolactin is high but only just - proceed as normal?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by cylon357 View Post
    I'm not sure but I THINK deca can skew your numbers. If not, those numbers are high for trt.
    Yes, deca can give false testosterone readings.
    Tren can give false estrogen readings.

    (It depends on which method they use to test the blood....)

    His numbers are definitely overly high because of the deca.

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