Riding out PCT with Clen/Var/Proviron

So let's say you do a simple cycle like:
Test P 100mg EoD
Tren A 150mg EoD
hCG 250iu per week

So you stay on for 3 months and then it's time to come off, so you do 4 weeks of:

Once-off megashot of 5000iu hCG
Clomiphene 50/25/25/25
Tamoxifen 40/20/20/20

To minimise muscle loss during the 4 weeks of PCT, and in the 4 weeks after PCT, how would the following go?

Var 10mg ED
Clen 40mcg ED
Proviron 50mg ED

The aim here is NOT to extend the cycle and keep HPTA shut down for longer. The aim is to maintain muscle mass while Clomiphene and Tamoxifen slowly restore endogenous Testosterone. Those 2 doses i.e. 10mg, 50mg are very low for a male.

What do you reckon?

Garbage, just stay on or don’t do it at all. As most of your threads go (trash) this one is no different

The big shot of hcg at the end is unnecessary if your running hcg during the cycle.

Running orals with your pct is alot of stress on your body. The whole point is to give your body a break from these compounds. Pct drugs as it is are cancer drugs.

If you want to maintain your gains you need to eat big and lift heavy. Pretend you never came off cycle and just keep lifting at 100%. No need to bridge your pct with low doses of weak orals.

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Originally Posted by LiftingLevi

Garbage, just stay on or don’t do it at all. As most of your threads go (trash) this one is no different

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For fucks sake, you have 65 posts and I’m pretty sure 64 of them are responses to Fluidic. Don’t you have anything else to do besides essentially cyber bully him? Offer up some advice, or shut your fucking mouth.

OP - Octane force offers up some good advice...

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Originally Posted by Octaneforce

The big shot of hcg at the end is unnecessary if your running hcg during the cycle.

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That had occurred to me. I thought that the megashot would give the gonads a bit of a kick even if the hCG during cycle kept them at about 70% activity. (I don't know exactly what percentage is accurate here).

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Originally Posted by Octaneforce

Running orals with your pct is alot of stress on your body. The whole point is to give your body a break from these compounds. Pct drugs as it is are cancer drugs.

If you want to maintain your gains you need to eat big and lift heavy. Pretend you never came off cycle and just keep lifting at 100%. No need to bridge your pct with low doses of weak orals.

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I've done about 8 or 9 cycles in the past 11 years. Actually right now is my 10th if you count me taking Var for 3 weeks to try lose fat (I'm taking it with Clen for 21 days).

PCT has always been my downfall, and has always made me a yo-yo gainer. I lose most muscle in the month after PCT. So I take AAS for 3 months, then I do PCT for 1 month, and it's in the next month after that that I shrink.

I'm trying to find a way to maintain size in the second month after I cease AAS. Maybe Clen by itself will work? They say it's anti-catabolic.

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Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah

For fucks sake, you have 65 posts and I’m pretty sure 64 of them are responses to Fluidic. Don’t you have anything else to do besides essentially cyber bully him? Offer up some advice, or shut your fucking mouth.

OP - Octane force offers up some good advice...

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I think cyber-bullying is allowed on this board. I think it's one of those things where they say "We wouldn't have a board if we didn't allow cyber-bullying".

For what it's worth, since I joined this forum in 2009, I've been banned maybe a dozen times -- and a few of those times (but not all of them!) it was for something a lot less severe than what individuals like LiftingLevi get away with all the time.

I think LiftingLevi is tracking and following me... he doesn't seem to post here except in response to me.

Since you have done 11 cycles with pct being your downfall Have you considered just going on trt while your not cycling?

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Originally Posted by Fluidic Cameron

I think cyber-bullying is allowed on this board. I think it's one of those things where they say "We wouldn't have a board if we didn't allow cyber-bullying".

For what it's worth, since I joined this forum in 2009, I've been banned maybe a dozen times -- and a few of those times (but not all of them!) it was for something a lot less severe than what individuals like LiftingLevi get away with all the time.

I think LiftingLevi is tracking and following me... he doesn't seem to post here except in response to me.

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I’ll be honest bud, you ask some whacky shit but I appreciate your eccentricities. Regardless, I don’t think that just because you don’t fit “the norm” that you deserve to be harassed and put down. We all have our shit...
There’s enough going on in the world and quite frankly this should be a safe place.
That being said, it’s aggravating when solid advice is offered up only to be ignored and argued with. You don’t fit that bill though.

When it does happen however, then yes that poster should be flamed and roasted

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Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah

I’ll be honest bud, you ask some whacky shit but I appreciate your eccentricities. Regardless, I don’t think that just because you don’t fit “the norm” that you deserve to be harassed and put down. We all have our shit...
There’s enough going on in the world and quite frankly this should be a safe place.
That being said, it’s aggravating when solid advice is offered up only to be ignored and argued with. You don’t fit that bill though.

When it does happen however, then yes that poster should be flamed and roasted

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It’s funny you say this, my first post ever towards OP was about his clen usage and was actual advice, similar yet slightly different (being my opinion of course) to many other users. He “ignored and argued” with all of us. That was when I decided anytime I were to see this user post some absolutely idiotic post (99% success rate so far on his behalf) I would ensure he knew how stupid it was without offering much, if any, advice. As far as my post count, you’re correct I do not post much, long time lurker, became a member, mostly read the informative threads. Unfortunately sometimes those informative threads are drowned out by OP making a useless one or commenting nonsense that has no meaning in the good ones. So I won’t be “shutting my fucking mouth” :icon_roll

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Originally Posted by LiftingLevi

It’s funny you say this, my first post ever towards OP was about his clen usage and was actual advice, similar yet slightly different (being my opinion of course) to many other users. He “ignored and argued” with all of us. That was when I decided anytime I were to see this user post some absolutely idiotic post (99% success rate so far on his behalf) I would ensure he knew how stupid it was without offering much, if any, advice. As far as my post count, you’re correct I do not post much, long time lurker, became a member, mostly read the informative threads. Unfortunately sometimes those informative threads are drowned out by OP making a useless one or commenting nonsense that has no meaning in the good ones. So I won’t be “shutting my fucking mouth” :icon_roll

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Then just “let it go”....you don’t have to be the one

All the best buddy

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Originally Posted by xxblazenlowxx

Since you have done 11 cycles with pct being your downfall Have you considered just going on trt while your not cycling?

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I was going to ask the same. Even as the old fart that I am, Cameron, the gains that I did make while on cycle didn’t vanish when I went to TRT only.

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Originally Posted by Proximal

I was going to ask the same. Even as the old fart that I am, Cameron, the gains that I did make while on cycle didn’t vanish when I went to TRT only.

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Absolutely, depending on where your natural test levels are now TRT could take you past where you get on cycle and like proximal said you keep them.

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Originally Posted by xxblazenlowxx

Absolutely, depending on where your natural test levels are now TRT could take you past where you get on cycle and like proximal said you keep them.

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Well I'm considering a vasectomy because of a condition that runs in my family, so that's one less concern I have about permanently damaging my HPTA.

Living in N. Ireland, UK, I don't know how eager a doctor would be to put a 30-something year old man on TRT for the rest of his life. Also I don't know what dose he'd give me.

I'll see how I look and feel after two or three three-week bursts with Clen and Var.

you could blast and cruise without a doctor. After all, as an enhanced athlete your on test like 8 months out of the year anyway. To me, blasting and cruising is as healthy, if not healthier, than sending your body on hormonal roller coaster with pct.

That being said, im only suggesting this because it sounds like you have experience. I wouldnt tell a young kid to start cruising.

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Originally Posted by Octaneforce

you could blast and cruise without a doctor. After all, as an enhanced athlete your on test like 8 months out of the year anyway. To me, blasting and cruising is as healthy, if not healthier, than sending your body on hormonal roller coaster with pct.

That being said, im only suggesting this because it sounds like you have experience. I wouldnt tell a young kid to start cruising.

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i'll ask the owner of my gym what the chances are of getting high-dose TRT at my age.

If I was to do it by myself -- i.e. buying my own vials instead of getting a prescription --
then I'd have a little grief getting bloodwork done once in a while. My doctor did bloodwork for me once but said he wasn't keen on doing it continually. I think he's more concerned about covering himself than any ethical objection.

From now until the end of Summer I'll just do 3 week spurts of Clen and Var. Gym is closed so I put a chin bar in the doorway.

Regarding the cycle and question:

Without being redundant, Octane already addressed the HCG, your Test dosage should always be in excess of Tren (and everything else for that matter), not vice versa.

The short version:
The fellas are right. Just cycle, come off, and run PCT. Greater minds than ours have contemplated remaking this wheel, and lesser ones have made these mistakes.

Since I know you always want rationale, which is commendable...

...The long version:
I like where your mind is, but although Var and Proviron are mild androgenically, they are still aas. Consequently, though they won't shut natty down when coming from baseline, but they will not only hinder/delay, they’ll completely stall full natty recovery.

Your hypothalamus (responsible for balancing bodily system set-points -- natty in the case) will, via the negative feedback loop (NFL), receive data from the endocrine system members/axis responsible for testosterone production, namely the pituitary, testes (HPTA - and in part adrenals) that enough Test exists within the system. Consequently, the NFL will never read and recognize ZERO Test (attained during our PCT time), and subsequently not initiate a HPTA restart. As such, the body will sustain a perpetually low Test state (as Var/Prov are Test derivatives), similar too TRT or cruising, but not as high, and too low to be as effective.

The net result will be you ending what you think is PCT, when in actuality you’ll be entering the real post-cycle month with no ancillaries, and therefore susceptible to the conditions they protect against.

Overthinking what has been not merely theorized, but PROVEN to be true, can be hazardous. I'm glad you had the forethought and guts to inquire first.

Best to you.

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Originally Posted by magic32

Overthinking what has been not merely theorized, but PROVEN to be true, can be hazardous. I'm glad you had the forethought and guts to inquire first.

Best to you.

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I hear you.

So how about I find something anabolic (or anti-catabolic) to take during PCT. Four things come to mind: insulin, IGF1, hGH, Clen.

If I don't want to risk all the crazy (and potentially fatal) sides of insulin and IGF1, I suppose I could just go with Clen and hGH.

So during PCT I could take Clomiphene, Tamoxifen, Clenbuterol, hGH.

I'm also mulling over the idea of never doing PCT again and just cruising on high dose TRT.

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Originally Posted by magic32

Regarding the cycle and question:

Without being redundant, Octane already addressed the HCG, your Test dosage should always be in excess of Tren (and everything else for that matter), not vice versa.

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This is bro science. Having testosterone being higher than other compounds is absolutely not necessary.

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Originally Posted by jstone

This is bro science. Having testosterone being higher than other compounds is absolutely not necessary.

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Testosterone gives me moon face quite easily, so I always keep the dose very low, e.g. 50 - 100 mg/wk.

The example I gave above of a cycle with 100mg T EOD was just as an example of a typical cycle.

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Originally Posted by jstone

This is bro science. Having testosterone being higher than other compounds is absolutely not necessary.

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Agreed. I feel much better with my tren higher than my test. I have zero science to back it up other than my own anecdotal evidence. But I feel much better running tren at 4-500 and keeping my test around 250 a week

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Originally Posted by Fluidic Cameron

Testosterone gives me moon face quite easily, so I always keep the dose very low, e.g. 50 - 100 mg/wk.

The example I gave above of a cycle with 100mg T EOD was just as an example of a typical cycle.

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No problem, cycles are fluid just like your handle. You have to roll with it, and adjust accordingly. If running tren low test is great. Let the tren do most of the work while the test helps maintain normal functioning.

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Originally Posted by SampsonandDelilah

Agreed. I feel much better with my tren higher than my test. I have zero science to back it up other than my own anecdotal evidence. But I feel much better running tren at 4-500 and keeping my test around 250 a week

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I think test just makes the sides worse for most people. I dont know of to many people that run test higher than tren or decca, after running low test with those compounds. Some people are very sensitive to nandrolones, but running test higher doesnt seem to solve anything. They need to add mast or some type of DA.