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07-01-2020, 05:05 PM #1Junior Member
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Minimum Viable dose
I tried to ask all questions in one place, but it seems the rules are very strict here.
What is the minimal weekly test enanthate dosage needed to be effective at increasing strength if youre not hypogonadal. I hear 100mg is worthless. So whats worthwhile?
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07-01-2020, 05:29 PM #2Banned- for my own actions
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Well part of that question depends on how long are you going to run it? You’d see an increase from as a little as 200-300mg. And if you’re going to stay on it forever than 200mg is great. If you’re going to stay on it for 12 weeks and then come off I’d say it’s not worth running below 500mg, because you have to consider that you’re going to lose some coming off.
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07-01-2020, 05:44 PM #3New Member
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What about T, dbol & var.. (i'll ask more about how to combine these or if i even should in another thread lol) thx.!
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07-01-2020, 06:36 PM #4Junior Member
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Wait a minute. I thought you could never come off. I recall someone telling me that in here. If I can come off I would absolutely love to try the minimum dose of 200. But from what I’ve been told here that’s not going to even get me to the level I’m at now naturally. Ideally, I would like to stay on for some interval of time it doesn’t really matter. 12 weeks sounds reasonable to me. Get some gains, then come off. To answer your question
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07-01-2020, 06:40 PM #5
I wouldn’t shut my natural test off for anything less than 500 mg a week. The reward wouldn’t be great enough to shut myself down.
What are your stats?
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07-01-2020, 07:02 PM #6Junior Member
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Straight up huh? I like it. Thanks for the straightforward answer.
Im guessing you mean
Age 40
Total test 717 ngdl
Free test 12 ngdl
190 lbs
I am a powerlifter. I want to do what i have to in order to hit a few massive pulls. Then come off. Later in life when I have low testosterone Im up for trt.
Is that what you meant by stats?
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07-01-2020, 07:18 PM #7
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07-01-2020, 07:26 PM #8Junior Member
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07-01-2020, 07:27 PM #9
As much background info you can provide as well as your goals gives folks the opportunity to answer more specifically to your question. Shooting from the hip and painting with a broad brush are difficult as everyone is vastly different.
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07-01-2020, 07:29 PM #10Banned- for my own actions
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People cycle on and off all the time. Most people that are serious about it never come off, or end up hypergonadal as result of cycling after awhile, but you can most certainly cycle on and off. However as Cape Buffalo said, I wouldn’t go shutting my natural production down for anything less that 500mg.
Most of my cycling is based around hypertrophy though. Maybe one of these other guys like Dead Lifting Dog or the guys that are more into power lifting can give you a more power lifting oriented cycle. I believe they utilize more orals than body builders do, and run estrogen heavy cycles, then offset them with a heavy androgen. So something along the lines of a lot of testosterone and dianabol , and then a mild dose of Tren or halo. But this being your first cycle there’s no need to get too creative. You would see a strength increase from 500mg of test. Maybe throw in some anavar or Dianabol to get the strength rolling. I say Anavar because there’s really no side effects. Dianabol is an estrogen bomb, and we don’t know if you’re prone to estrogenic side effects yet (man boobs). Also if you’re going to come off you can look up PCT protocols on here. They combine clomid and nolvadex to get your natural production going faster. I like using HCG as well. I find it beneficial, and it’s inexpensive. I recommend it regardless.
Again, maybe one of the power lifting guys can offer you something more useful.Last edited by i_SLAM_cougars; 07-01-2020 at 07:39 PM.
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07-01-2020, 07:41 PM #11
1st cycle test only imo. See how you handle it and gains you make. No need to add anything to the 1st cycle.
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07-01-2020, 08:07 PM #12Junior Member
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So let me get this right. (Im sorry to fixate on this piece but its the one piece of info im truly seeking). Im getting conflicting messages. One person says you can come off and maintain natural production with pct. The other says 500 is the min cause anything less is not worth shutting off your production (implying youre Going to shutdown regardless of dose). Do you see my confusion?
Is there a dose that wont shut me down in 12 week cycle but also gives tangible gains? Test and hcg only.Last edited by GargaML; 07-01-2020 at 08:09 PM.
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07-01-2020, 08:08 PM #13Junior Member
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My plan exactly. Maybe hcg if i need it
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07-01-2020, 08:30 PM #14
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07-01-2020, 09:06 PM #15Banned
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See above in red.
Just added this... I think this is part of your confusion.
When you take AAS you shut down.
When you stop you take PCT to help restore your natural production.
You always run the risk that you don't restore back to your starting point. (Your HPTA gets damaged.)
This is why people say, if you are going to use you should at least use a decent enough dose, say 500mg/week.
I hope this helps.
FYI: I am a 49yr competitive powerlifter. At our age it ain't easy.Last edited by The Deadlifting Dog; 07-01-2020 at 09:13 PM.
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07-01-2020, 09:19 PM #16
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07-01-2020, 09:24 PM #17Banned
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Thank you. Just trying to help.
It ain't rocket science but it sure can be confusing to someone at first.
I remember when I first started.
I outsmarted everyone and injected test P sub Q ED to avoid pinning IM.
Ended up with black and blue welts across my stomach.
Couldn't get a good night sleep for days it hurt so bad.
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07-01-2020, 10:20 PM #18Junior Member
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07-01-2020, 10:43 PM #19Junior Member
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07-03-2020, 07:42 PM #20Junior Member
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After reading all of this and the great post by a member from TX 7 years ago, I decided not to run anything less than 200-300mg per week (test) during my first 12 wk cycle plus hcg ...thanks to all of your inputs. I'd opt for more but I think 2-300 is as much as I'll be able to get with my current resources. Unfortunately, to stockpile that much I'll have to wait til September to start but at least I have a plan.
Thanks again.
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07-04-2020, 08:55 AM #21
200mgs is double you naturall test levels. So Im at 650 free test on 100mgs, now everyone is different but you should be somewhere close to that, so then 1300 would give you decents results with a good diet and exercise. So now you ask yourself what kind of gains are you looking for. Because at 200mgs you will get subtle gains, 500mgs your going to have very noticeable, people will ask if you are using. 200-250 would be good for a first try, see how you react, see what sides you get from it and if its even something you want to do. Its best to start lower and learn what side effects you get at certain dosages and the sides you get from different compounds. Thats why you want to start with just test, see how that goes then if you add a secondary compound the next time you will be able to see what sides you get from that. Takes the guessing out.
Last edited by BG; 07-04-2020 at 08:59 AM. Reason: horrible spelling and missing words
Disclaimer-BG is presenting fictitious opinions and does in no way encourage nor condone the use of any illegal substances.
The information discussed is strictly for entertainment purposes only.
Everything was impossible until somebody did it!
I've got 99 problems......but my squat/dead ain't one !!
It doesnt matter how good looking she is, some where, some one is tired of her shit.
Light travels faster then sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Great place to start researching ! http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...-database.html
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07-04-2020, 09:30 AM #22Junior Member
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07-04-2020, 09:35 AM #23Junior Member
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This is a refreshingly different perspective that no one has offered here in my opinion(i’m sorry if anyone reading this is offended but it’s true). So thank you. I have a few questions
When you said 1300 did you mean 300?
When you said to start lower and move up, does that mean you recommend starting with 100? Or is 200 /wk a good start.
Are you saying you are at 650 free after all of your stuff has shut down naturally and you are coasting off 100 per week?
Test and hCG is all I want to do at first.Last edited by GargaML; 07-04-2020 at 09:42 AM.
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07-04-2020, 09:45 AM #24Banned- for my own actions
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I believe he’s talking about “total testosterone ” the scale is like 265-915ng/dL.
As a general rule every 100mg of testosterone Cypionate or enanthate should knock you up about 500 points on that scale (usually it’s a big higher). So yes, 200mg a week should put you over 1000 total, which is slightly off the charts.
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07-04-2020, 11:40 AM #25Associate Member
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Too much variation for that rule to be of any use imo. I'm at 1000 with 80mg (with 700 IU HCG ).
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07-04-2020, 11:53 AM #26Junior Member
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Wait a minute. Hold the phone. YouÂ’re telling me youÂ’re at 1000 free testosterone using 80 mg per week? Are you Strong, or Jacked? Were you hypogonadal before you started?
IÂ’m fascinated by this. It goes in the face of everything everyone has said here
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07-04-2020, 12:53 PM #27Associate Member
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Minimum Viable dose
Without adding to more confusion I disagree with you, and very much agree with the general rule previously stated.
That rule is that you can take the mg test administered per week multiply it by 5 and that will roughly equate to hour total test value when running labs. Keep in mind everyone metabolizes test a little differently but thus general rule is a good basis (worse case the 5 multiplier is a 3.5 best case 5.5 generally). Also keep in mind this is assuming your test is 100% legit and correctly dosed, and is just a broad estimation that does not take things like hcg (negligible effects) or other compounds you may run concurrently.
Now using this general rule you can clearly see that 150 mg test weekly will put you around 750 total test level, and if your at a 700 level of test naturally it’s a useless amount to run.
Im with the people saying 500mg is a good place to start. It’s not that around 250-300mg per week wouldn’t be noticed it’s just not worth it imo, especially if your 40 plus years old. I am of the strong belief that building completely new tissue beyond 40 is very very different than a 20-30 year old putting on new mass. Simple truth as people age we just don’t assimilate food nearly as well. I’m definitely not saying it’s not possible it’s just more challenging.
With all that being said if your 5’9” at 190lbs that’s a pretty good size base naturally if your body fat is relatively low. What do you honestly estimate your body fat percentage currently? I’m not a you have to be Uber lean to run gear proponent, but if your over 16% or so things can get be a bit more complicated with aromatization etc.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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07-04-2020, 03:04 PM #28Associate Member
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Last edited by Ephemeral; 07-04-2020 at 03:09 PM.
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07-04-2020, 03:20 PM #29Associate Member
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HCG is not negligible at all, there was a study indicating that up to 300 ng/dL in T production can be expected from HCG doses >875 IU per week (to be fair, <500 doses didn't do much). This matched my own experience as well. I've also seen a lot of TRT lab results in the last 2-3 years, and your numbers seem to be off. But it doesn't really matter, it's a trial and error process anyway for everyone to dial the dose in, just start somewhere and modify after every 6 weeks.
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07-05-2020, 01:41 PM #30Junior Member
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I just saw this. Thanks for your input. I would say my body fat is around 10 Percent. I train really hard about five days per week. In my head I’m always about to sign up for another powerlifting competition, but I don’t always do it. I work from home and I do two-a-days usually. I don’t eat very well but I can improve that part. I think, theoretically, if I introduced 200 mg into my routine I would see some pretty big impact for the first 90 days or so from what I read. But I see what you’re saying as well not being worth it.
If that guy is at 1000, using 80 mg per week I sure would like to hear about it
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07-05-2020, 01:43 PM #31Junior Member
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07-05-2020, 01:46 PM #32Junior Member
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I’m trying to determine that “somewhere “to the best of my ability. So far everyone says 500, but that seems excessive to me. I’m really not interested in that high of a dose. My hematocrit is already just under 50, I want to live. that’s why I’m looking for any evidence that I can start with less, much to the dismay of a lot of these guys. I like your different perspective. Keep it coming
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07-05-2020, 01:53 PM #33Junior Member
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Guys. Maybe the question can be better addressed if I didn’t have any time limit on the cycle. Meaning, I would rather do a low dose for a longer period then a massive amount for 8 to 12 weeks. Not sure if that changes anyone’s answer.
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07-05-2020, 04:14 PM #34Junior Member
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1. I know now. It took multiple dialogues to figure out shut down was not permanent necessarily and that was where I was stuck.
2. Yup. I had that part down as well.
3. This also makes sense. I knew this piece of information as well.
4. I am the opposite of all over the place I am focused like a laser and I know exactly what I want. Much like a machine learning algorithm I’m trying to take the opinions of a bunch of different models to come up with a weighted answer. No three people say the same thing, and I expect that. That’s why am here together multiple opinions before I do exactly what I was aiming to do. But I will enter at the proper point because of you guys. Gracias.
Also, I know I will be shut down. The severity and length of that shut down is a variable. I have gathered this information thank you.
I have read that post at least 24 times, day and night. I can recite all the dosages by memory. I have already ordered all of the requisite material. I am proud to be from the same town as that original poster as I have said in three or four posts prior to this.
Sorry if I have frustrated anyone. But my goal is to gather information.Last edited by GargaML; 07-05-2020 at 04:18 PM. Reason: Spelling
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07-05-2020, 04:19 PM #35Junior Member
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I’d really love to hear from BG again.
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07-05-2020, 05:38 PM #36Banned
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GargaML
One thing I think you are missing is:
The longer you are on cycle the harder the recovery can be.
Think if it this way...
If you start a car up every day, it fires right up.
If you start it up every month, it probably fires up fine.
If you start a car up once a year, it may not fire up at all. And if it does fire up, it probably will run like shit.
So yes, you can make gains at 200mg/week but you may have to run it for a year straight to reach your goals.
You may reach those goals in 12-16 weeks at 500mg/week.
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07-05-2020, 06:27 PM #37Junior Member
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07-05-2020, 06:37 PM #38Junior Member
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07-05-2020, 07:02 PM #39Banned
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400-500mg of test per week is a beginner cycle. It is not an intense cycle.
It may seem scary or intense to you but it is fairly mild.
I will try to make this short:
You could go on 200mg a week for 12 weeks and put on 3lbs of muscle.
You could go on 500mg a week for 12 weeks and put on 7lbs of muscle.
But what happened when you come off (and probably run a PCT)?
You will lose some of your gains because you will go thru a phase where your body produces a low amount of test.
So let's say you lose 2lbs of muscle during this low test period.
Well the net affect is either a 3-2=1lb gain or a 7-2=5lb gain.
And you always run the risk that you have damaged your HPTA.
Well is a 1lb gain worth the risk of a cycle?
And is a 5lb gain worth the risk of a cycle?
For me... I wouldn't run the risk of damaging my HPTA for a 1lb gain.
This is all over simplified but just trying to get you to understand why people say:
They wouldn't recommend shutting down your HPTA for less than 400-500mg of test.
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07-05-2020, 07:03 PM #40Junior Member
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