proof that nolvadex is superior to clomid for raising test after cycle

[freddygunns]

i got this from bobybuilding.com wat do u guys thin of it? i thins hees talkin rubbish
Characteristics:

While practically similar compounds in structure, few people ever really consider Clomid and Nolva to be similar. Its not just a common myth in steroid circles, but even in the medical community. This misconception originates from their completely different uses. Nolvadex is most commonly used for the treatment of breast cancer in women, while clomid is generally considered a fertility aid. In bodybuilding circles, from day one, clomid has generally been used as post-cycle therapy and Nolvadex as an anti-estrogen.

But as I intend to demonstrate this is in essence the same. I believe the myth to have originated because Nolva is clearly a more powerful anti-estrogen, and the people selling clomid needed another angle to sell the stuff, so it was mostly used as a post-cycle aid. But few users really understand how clomid (and also Nolvadex, logically) works to bring back natural testosterone in the body after the conclusion of a cycle of androgenic anabolic steroids . After a cycle is over, the level of androgens in the body drop drastically. The body compensates with an overproduction of estrogen to keep steroid levels up. Estrogen as well inhibits the production of natural testosterone, and in the period between the return of natural testosterone and the end of a cycle, a lot of mass is lost. So its in everybody's best interest to bring back natural test as soon as humanly possible. Clomid and Nolvadex will reduce the post-cycle estrogen, so that a steroid deficiency is constated and the hypothalamus is stimulated to regenerate natural testosterone production in the body. That's basically how the mechanism works, nothing more, nothing less.

Both compounds are structurally alike, classified as triphenylethylenes. Nolvadex is clearly the stronger component of the two as it can achieve better results in decreasing overall estrogen with 20-40 mg a day, than clomid can in doses of 100-150 mg a day. A noteworthy difference. Triphenylethylenes are very mild estrogens that do not exert a lot, if any activity at the estrogen receptor, but are still highly attracted to it. As such they will occupy the receptor and keep it from binding estrogens. This means they do not actively work to reduce estrogen in the body like Proviron , Viratase or arimidex would (by competing for the aromatase enzyme), but that it blocks the receptor so that any estrogen in the body is basically inert, because it has no receptor to bind to. This has advantages and disadvantages. The disadvantage is that when use is discontinued, the estrogen level is still the same and new problems will develop much sooner. The advantage is that it works much faster and has results sooner than with an aromatase blocker like Proviron or arimidex. Therefor, when problems such as gynocomastia occur during a cycle of steroids one will usually start 20 mg/day of Nolva or 100 mg/day of clomid straight away, in conjunction with some Proviron or arimidex. The proviron or arimidex will actively reduce estrogen while the clomid or Nolvadex will solve your ongoing problem straight away. This way, when use is discontinued there is no immediate rebound.

So which one should you use? Well personally, I'd have to say Nolvadex. Both as an on-cycle anti-estrogen and a post-cycle therapy. As an anti-estrogen its simply much stronger, demonstrated by the fact that better results are obtained with 20-40 mg than with 100-150 mg of clomid. For post-cycle, this plays a key role as well. It deactivates rebound estrogen much faster and more effective. But most importantly, Nolvadex has a direct influence on bringing back natural testosterone, where as clomid may actually have a slight negative influence. The reason being that Tamoxifen (as in Nolvadex) seems to increase the responsiveness of LH (luteinizing hormone) to GnRH (gonadtropin releasing hormone), whereas clomid seems to decrease the responsiveness a bit1.

Another noteworthy fact about Nolvadex is that it acts more potently as an estrogen in the liver. As you remember, I mentioned that clomiphene and tamoxifen are basically weak estrogens. Well, tamoxifen is apparently still quite potent in the liver. This offers us the positive benefits of this hormone in the liver, while avoiding its negative effects elsewhere in the body. As such Nolvadex can have a very positive impact on negative cholesterol levels2 in the body, and therefore too should be considered a better choice than clomid. It will not solve the problem of bad cholesterol levels during Steroid use , but will help to contain the problem to a larger degree.

Lastly, one should be aware that use of these compound can reduce the gains made on steroids. Nolvadex more so than clomid, simply because it is stronger. Estrogen is responsible for a number of anabolic factors such as increasing growth hormone output, upgrading the androgen receptor and improving glucose utilization. This is why aromatizing steroids like testosterone are still best suited for maximum muscle gain. When reducing the estrogen levels, we therefore reduce the potential gains being made. For this reason one may opt to try clomid during a cycle instead of Nolvadex. Although I would imagine that the problem that needed solved would be of more concern, in which case Nolva remains the weapon of choice. It's a plain fact that there is a high correlation between gains and side-effects. Either you go for maximum gains and tolerate the side-effects, or you reduce the side-effects, and with it the gains. That's life, nothing is free.

Stacking and Use:

If problems of Gynocomastia or other estrogen related symptoms tend to pop up during a cycle the use of 20-30 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid daily should easily contain the problem, and be used until a few days after the problem subsides. For best results and the least amount of problems upon cessation it is best stacked with Proviron (50 mg) or arimidex (0.5 mg) for this duration as well. Its not advised that these products be ran concomitantly with the steroid for the entire duration of the stack, as this will reduce your gains. Instead cease the usage of anti-estrogens once the problem is contained, and should the problem resurface, simply recommence the use of the products in the same manner as described above.

Once a cycle of steroids is concluded one should always initiate a post-cycle therapy to help bring back natural testosterone as soon as possible. This will help you to retain the mass you gained. How this is done depends highly on the type of steroid used. If only orals were used, therapy should start immediately, even the last day of the stack. If short-acting esters or water-based injectables were used, therapy should commence within 4-7 days after last injection, and if long-acting esters were used then it should commence 1.5 to 2 weeks after the last injection was given. The length of the therapy will vary as well, from 3-5 weeks. The longer acting the product was, the longer therapy should be continued to make sure all suppressive factors are cleared before use of Clomid/Nolvadex is discontinued.

For best results, it is best stacked with HCG (Human Chorionic gonadotrophin), which functions as an LH analog and can help bring testicle size back up. HCG use starts the last week of a cycle, and on from there every 5-6 days (usually 1500-3000 IU) and discontinued 1.5 to weeks prior to the cessation of Nolvadex/clomid. The reason being that HCG itself is also suppressive of natural testosterone and should be out of the body before therapy is over, or it will inhibit natural testicle function. But I can not stress enough that HCG possibly plays a more important role in post-cycle therapy than clomid/Nolvadex. For clomid and Nolvadex, Doses are usually tapered down. Its best to start with 40 mg of Nolvadex or 150 mg of Clomid for the first week or the first two weeks, and then finish the program with 20 mg of Nolvadex or 100 mg of Clomid.

References

1 Vermeulen A., Comhaire F., Hormonal effects of an anti-estrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men, Fertil. Ster. 29 (1978) 320-27

2 Bruning PF, Bronfer JMG, Hart AAM, Jong-Bakker M, tamoxifen, serum lipoproteins and cardiovascular risk, Br. J. Cancer 1988 Oct, 58 (4) 497-9

[Anabolik]

Not gonna comment on nolva's superiority, however, I want to point out the benefits of estrogen during the cycle, as mentioned in the article. Too many people take anti-es unnecessarily, especially those on the first cycles. Why take anti-es if you dont know how you body is gonna respond to estrogen? Some will get gyno, but the majority won't. If you fall in the majority group why inhibit the gains? Of course if symptoms become prominent then one should begin taking anti-es. Water retention also depends on the individual as do all the sides of test/ Some get them, some dont. Why not see how your body responds to estrogen and then act accordingly. Anti-es not only inhibit gains, but also constitute a high cost proportion of your cycle and are not without sides.

[STACKEDMATT]

good work both of you..

[BIG_GUNS_21]

I have tried them both and clomid worked better for keeping gains (for me anyways) some will argue that nolva is far better (on BBing.com) but in my EXPERIENCE its not.

[PaPaPumP]

Originally posted by Anabolik
Not gonna comment on nolva's superiority, however, I want to point out the benefits of estrogen during the cycle, as mentioned in the article. Too many people take anti-es unnecessarily, especially those on the first cycles. Why take anti-es if you dont know how you body is gonna respond to estrogen? Some will get gyno, but the majority won't. If you fall in the majority group why inhibit the gains? Of course if symptoms become prominent then one should begin taking anti-es. Water retention also depends on the individual as do all the sides of test/ Some get them, some dont. Why not see how your body responds to estrogen and then act accordingly. Anti-es not only inhibit gains, but also constitute a high cost proportion of your cycle and are not without sides.

Completely agree with you that ROOKIES should roll with maybe .5mg arimidex and see how that works.

However, in my case, taking nolva is necessary thruout a test based cycle, as I am very sensitive and I know that I will get symtpoms regardless. Well..I have every time so far. So I won't gain those extra 2-5lbs due to low IGF1 levels caused by nolva...big whoop, I'll throw in some extra NON aromatizing gear to compensate for those 5lbs...

[Ajax]

I posted a link to that post by BigCat from BB.com a while back. Lots of responses and few seemed to support BigCat's theory...

Check it out:

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...threadid=14842

[Jimmy_Bravo]

Originally posted by Anabolik
Not gonna comment on nolva's superiority, however, I want to point out the benefits of estrogen during the cycle, as mentioned in the article. Too many people take anti-es unnecessarily, especially those on the first cycles. Why take anti-es if you dont know how you body is gonna respond to estrogen? Some will get gyno, but the majority won't. If you fall in the majority group why inhibit the gains? Of course if symptoms become prominent then one should begin taking anti-es. Water retention also depends on the individual as do all the sides of test/ Some get them, some dont. Why not see how your body responds to estrogen and then act accordingly. Anti-es not only inhibit gains, but also constitute a high cost proportion of your cycle and are not without sides.

My question is. If I don't take any anti- es and I develop gyno, I thought that it would be too late. I heard that gyno is irreversable unless you have surgery done. Wouldn't it be better to just take the Nolva and not take the chance that you'll get gyno? You say that if the symptoms become promenent then take an anti-es, but by this time wouldn't you be permenently damaged with gyno anyway? I'm going to be starting my first cycle soon and want to know all the facts.
Thanks,

[raoul3]

Not gonna comment on nolva's superiority, however, I want to point out the benefits of estrogen during the cycle, as mentioned in the article. Too many people take anti-es unnecessarily, especially those on the first cycles. Why take anti-es if you dont know how you body is gonna respond to estrogen? Some will get gyno, but the majority won't. If you fall in the majority group why inhibit the gains? Of course if symptoms become prominent then one should begin taking anti-es. Water retention also depends on the individual as do all the sides of test/ Some get them, some dont. Why not see how your body responds to estrogen and then act accordingly. Anti-es not only inhibit gains, but also constitute a high cost proportion of your cycle and are not without sides.

Disagree... I had everything on hand during my first cycle letro and nolva, but eventually decided not to use them from the get-go and see what happens. Big mistake, I got no warning, no symptoms, no nothing until I got a lump developping at the very end of the cycle... Then I hit the nolva hard but it didn't go away completely.

So my advices to first time users:
1) anti-e's are cheaper than gyno surgery!
2) better be safe than sorry
3) gains might be inhibited by a couple of lbs... So what? It's probably water anyways.

[MR.BICEPS]

Great posts. It's my understanding that femara increases 1-GF levels!

Also the post above says to not take anties throughout the cycle because it reduces their effectiveness but to take them when symtoms appear or get off them in the middle of your cycle or whenever gyno dissapears. This kinds of contradicts most who say stay on anties throughout the cycle??? Now explain that one please!!!

Thanks

[Billy_Bathgate]

I have tried them both and clomid worked better for keeping gains (for me anyways) some will argue that nolva is far better (on BBing.com) but in my EXPERIENCE its not.

same here

[FrkyBgStok]

Jimy-Bravo had a good question. i also thought gyno was irreversible, so yeah, wouldn't it be too late?

[tony_canuck]

once you get gyno, then its too late. when you get symptons, you still have a chance, but realistically, the gains you inhibit are mostly water. In my eyes, it is better not to gain the water in the first place for several reason. The water is the first to go upon the end of your cycle, and you lose a lot of weight, and mentally this can be difficult, plus it looks odd to be bouncing around in weight due to water. Plus high water retention can lead to high blood pressure, which causes all sorts of problems. So I use it throughout, for all these reasons, plus i don't want to get gyno as well..........

Tony

[Rookiejay]

I've read this article a while ago. I'm glad this old thread popped up - it's definitely a worthy discussion.

[Lift Chief]

I always include an anti-aromatase while on cycle.

The only thing i potentially lose is some strength and therefore a small amt of muscle because imnot retaining water. Water weight helps with leverage and therefore increases strength which therefore will increase muscle mass to a certain degree.

But i would much rather gain 15 lean pounds on a cycle than blow up with 25 water logged pounds and end up keeping say 17...

Also from a health standpoint it's smart to use an anti-e so you keep your blood pressure down and avoid the hugest of weight fluxuations.

[lskvee]

how much do you take a day if you are taking it throughout the cycle?

[punk_bbuilder]

Im def. going to take one of the two at the end of this cycle...i fucked up a while back and reacted bad to D-bol ended up with a lump in my chest. went to the doc and he said it was my estrogen bumping up, stupid me for not takin clomid or Nolv. Eventually it went away but that was my first time cycle....So id tell newbies to take some form of anti-E