Nah, no more "no AI" for me

[SampsonandDelilah]

Who's?

Teed that up, lol

[kelkel]

LOL! Been there man. This is from when I was 220.

Leaness for the win Alex!

[Lee_1978]

I just don't understand how some can get away with not using an AI? You'v got test levels in the thousands circulating through your blood converting to
oestrogen with no back up? High oestrogen levels cause problems in men and I think those issues don't always manifest during or just after a cycle. I believe prolonged exposure to high levels of oestrogen lead to complications down the line, namely prostate related.

[redz]

In my avatar i was on 900mg Deca , 75mg dbol 250mg test e and no ai yet I was very lean and dry. In the past I ran ai and was less lean, diet and training and of course genetics play into this too. End of the day if you don’t need an ai don’t run one, if you do then run it but it’s stupid to run one without knowing you need it.

[charger69]

I just don't understand how some can get away with not using an AI? You'v got test levels in the thousands circulating through your blood converting to
oestrogen with no back up? High oestrogen levels cause problems in men and I think those issues don't always manifest during or just after a cycle. I believe prolonged exposure to high levels of oestrogen lead to complications down the line, namely prostate related.

Estrogen is anabolic . The meathead in me says, “You let estrogen go and you grow”.
There have been a number of studies that high estrogen when taking exogenous testosterone actually increases libido. A little bit different than what everyone says and what is expected. There are no conclusive studies showing that high estrogen causes problems. The studies are conflicting and the only thing that can be concluded is that it MAY cause problems in men.
High estrogen is present in obese people and even older people. Remember, I am referring to high testosterone and high estrogen. Most people refer to low test and high estrogen and use that as though it works the same. It is not.


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[Gallowmere]

Estrogen is anabolic . The meathead in me says, “You let estrogen go and you grow”.
There have been a number of studies that high estrogen when taking exogenous testosterone actually increases libido. A little bit different than what everyone says and what is expected. There are no conclusive studies showing that high estrogen causes problems. The studies are conflicting and the only thing that can be concluded is that it MAY cause problems in men.
High estrogen is present in obese people and even older people. Remember, I am referring to high testosterone and high estrogen. Most people refer to low test and high estrogen and use that as though it works the same. It is not.


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Exactly the problem for most. They want to focus on that one thing, instead of looking at the whole picture. As with nearly everything in biology, shit finds it’s best results in specific ratio based balance. You don’t crush one of anything while letting everything else run rampant and expect good shit to happen.
And yes, when you have supraphysiological amounts of androgens running through you, “normal” estrogen levels qualify as crushed. That’s how ratios work.

[Chark]

Exactly the problem for most. They want to focus on that one thing, instead of looking at the whole picture. As with nearly everything in biology, shit finds it’s best results in specific ratio based balance. You don’t crush one of anything while letting everything else run rampant and expect good shit to happen.
And yes, when you have supraphysiological amounts of androgens running through you, “normal” estrogen levels qualify as crushed. That’s how ratios work.

This. We often break down processes to simplify and make more understandable. The problem is reality is a myriad of factors all at play interacting at once leading to a many possible outcomes.

[Chicagotarsier]

I just don't understand how some can get away with not using an AI? You'v got test levels in the thousands circulating through your blood converting to
oestrogen with no back up? High oestrogen levels cause problems in men and I think those issues don't always manifest during or just after a cycle. I believe prolonged exposure to high levels of oestrogen lead to complications down the line, namely prostate related.

The whole let estrogen be what it will be is definately a meathead thing said by people who cannot afford Aromasin . I say Aromasin because the top reason people hate AI is they OD with Letro. Second reason to hate AI is "cannot afford it and eat".

You are correct on the prostrate. It also severely impacts the heart longterm. I am willing to bet the same people saying no AI are on the sleep issue thread.

[Gallowmere]

The whole let estrogen be what it will be is definately a meathead thing said by people who cannot afford Aromasin . I say Aromasin because the top reason people hate AI is they OD with Letro. Second reason to hate AI is "cannot afford it and eat".

You are correct on the prostrate. It also severely impacts the heart longterm. I am willing to bet the same people saying no AI are on the sleep issue thread.

Yeap, estrogen clearly destroys the heart, which is why we see women suddenly have a five fold increase in CV event starting immediately after menopause.
Stop basing your thoughts on shitty studies from the 60s and 70s that have been repeatedly disproven, both clinically and through trials. Higher levels of estrogen in men are only problematic when the ratio is fucked, like we see in severely obese males. Hell, even then, there are a lot more systemic issues at play than just the T:E ratio, so fingering any single one of them is disingenuous at best.

[Chark]

The whole let estrogen be what it will be is definately a meathead thing said by people who cannot afford Aromasin . I say Aromasin because the top reason people hate AI is they OD with Letro. Second reason to hate AI is "cannot afford it and eat".

You are correct on the prostrate. It also severely impacts the heart longterm. I am willing to bet the same people saying no AI are on the sleep issue thread.

There are better ways of getting your point across than discounting a different view than your own by calling people broke meatheads. Your wording sounds very certain. Would you mind explaining?

[charger69]

There are better ways of getting your point across than discounting a different view than your own by calling people broke meatheads. Your wording sounds very certain. Would you mind explaining?

It’s obvious he is going off what he has read and has no experience. I have tried it and it works.
I used to have his point of view so I do understand it.


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[Test Monsterone]

The whole let estrogen be what it will be is definately a meathead thing said by people who cannot afford Aromasin . I say Aromasin because the top reason people hate AI is they OD with Letro. Second reason to hate AI is "cannot afford it and eat".

You are correct on the prostrate. It also severely impacts the heart longterm. I am willing to bet the same people saying no AI are on the sleep issue thread.

Hell, I started both threads


I have noticed I get better sleep since I upped my AI, but it may just be a coincidence. I think everyone reacts differently to estrogen. It can be good for 9 things out of 10, but be really bad for that 1 thing. I personally feel better with an AI, physically and mentally.

[SampsonandDelilah]

The whole let estrogen be what it will be is definately a meathead thing said by people who cannot afford Aromasin . I say Aromasin because the top reason people hate AI is they OD with Letro. Second reason to hate AI is "cannot afford it and eat".

You are correct on the prostrate. It also severely impacts the heart longterm. I am willing to bet the same people saying no AI are on the sleep issue thread.

The thing to not lose sight of (and I say it time and time again) is that we are all wired so differently. So much of what we read is anecdotal because let’s face it, a lot of it is bro science and trial and error.

There are certain blueprints in place, but the probability of variability is enormous. The way we interact with hormones is no different than how we interact with food.

Think of the guy that smokes 4 packs a day and lives on bacon and dies peacefully in his sleep at 90, versus the guy that never had had a cigarette in his life and dies of lung cancer in his 50’s. Or the marathon runner who eats nothing but veggies and drops dead on the track from a heart attack.

[< <Samson> >]

Think of the guy that smokes 4 packs a day and lives on bacon

How do you know my father in law?!

Totally amazing, the guy is 77 - and, this exact image. Lives darn near off the land, smokes at least 2 packs a day & never drinks water - instead polishes off 12 packs at a time - still alive, 100% - her grandma is the same, just doesn’t smoke

And, I’m here in shambles at half the age


I def learned that life is not fare - at all, never will be.


No need to speak ill of the old - but, both of these folks are far from perfect - considering we were raising my wife’s sisters half of their lives - who also can care less about what we did for them now

The only thing seems to stand - “only the good die young”


I’m done being good -

[Meloncap78]

I have always been one to feel that less compounds in the bag during a cycle is better. I was wondering why at 600mg test and 600mg eq on my last cycle i never had these bloating issues with no AI but as I now recall I was taking erase pro at the time EOD. Apparently that shit really works as an AI. This cycle I up my test to 600 with no type of AI and I balloon up like I’m in the last throes of heart failure and the edema is at it’s peak. Now finally after taking adex for the past week current blood levels of estro are dissipating and the ADEX is working it’s magic on any further aromatization. First night not being a balloon and I feel some mood stabilization. I would never argue on this subject with anyone because as Sampson stated, we all react differently so arguing whether to or whether not to is a moot point at best. Now if I could just find out where those magical gains are hiding........

[Test Monsterone]

I felt I got the best results when I mixed a few compounds at low doses. I also found that I didn't like test higher than 200 mg/week. So maybe mix 3-4 dissimilar compounds and keep test in the TRT range. Deca is an easy one. I like to add DHB. Primo, etc.

[Gallowmere]

I felt I got the best results when I mixed a few compounds at low doses. I also found that I didn't like test higher than 200 mg/week. So maybe mix 3-4 dissimilar compounds and keep test in the TRT range. Deca is an easy one. I like to add DHB. Primo, etc.

I’m currently feeling great following a tried and true base that Broderick Chavez is big on. 3mg/kg test with 5-10mg/kg Masteron (I’m currently on the 5 end). I added 3mg/kg deca and 3.5mg/kg Anavar , and it’s rolling well thus far.

[charger69]

I’m currently feeling great following a tried and true base that Broderick Chavez is big on. 3mg/kg test with 5-10mg/kg Masteron (I’m currently on the 5 end). I added 3mg/kg deca and 3.5mg/kg Anavar, and it’s rolling well thus far.

How does this compare to what you were previously taking?


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[Gallowmere]

How does this compare to what you were previously taking?


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Lower test (was 500 now 300), lower deca (was 400 now 300), higher mast (was 200 now 480), Anavar is a new thing but similar dose as what I have run with Dbol and Adrol.

[charger69]

Lower test (was 500 now 300), lower deca (was 400 now 300), higher mast (was 200 now 480), Anavar is a new thing but similar dose as what I have run with Dbol and Adrol.

What differences are you seeing?


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[Gallowmere]

What differences are you seeing?


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Scale isn’t rocketing up as fast, water isn’t holding as hard in my droopy former fatty skin, work capacity is a bit lower, actual strength is a bit higher, other than that, fairly similar in overall feeling. Just not getting the “great feels” of dbol , nor the “death feels of Adrol”, but that’s to be expected anyway.
This is my first time frontloading a long ester cycle as well, so I was expecting the water to set in notably harder. I’ll be able to judge better once I’m about halfway in.

ETA: oh, and pumps everywhere so hard that it fucking hurts, but that’s to be expected with Anavar from what I understand. Feel like a goddamned overinflated balloon animal when I’m done training.

[tarmyg]

I’m currently feeling great following a tried and true base that Broderick Chavez is big on. 3mg/kg test with 5-10mg/kg Masteron (I’m currently on the 5 end). I added 3mg/kg deca and 3.5mg/kg Anavar, and it’s rolling well thus far.

Never seen a cycle based on numbers in this way. Makes way more sense obviously but would love to learn more. Any resources you can suggest?

[SampsonandDelilah]

Lower test (was 500 now 300), lower deca (was 400 now 300), higher mast (was 200 now 480), Anavar is a new thing but similar dose as what I have run with Dbol and Adrol.

So 250# is 113.398 kilograms.
So if I’m reading this correctly and based off of that math, I would want 340 mgs of test, 560 mgs of mast, 340 mgs of deca and 396 mgs of anavar ? That’s per week, right? So you break the var up daily and that equates to about 56 mgs per day. Am I doing the math correctly for this logic?

(A tad lower on test and deca thank normal and a tad higher on mast but spot on for Var)

The dosages aren’t that far off from what I’ve run historically which is interesting....

Thanks Gallow and to whoever’s thread I just hijacked (just looked, sorry TMO)

[Lethal Hamburger]

Lower test (was 500 now 300), lower deca (was 400 now 300), higher mast (was 200 now 480), Anavar is a new thing but similar dose as what I have run with Dbol and Adrol.

Wow there you have it.
The classic stack used by golden era bbers. Common sense has returned.
What gets me is why the trend today of over the top dosing of aromatisable compounds that upon reaching peak blood concentration creates a cascade of side effects that then need to be mitigated with strength and gains killing ais?
Why not run the least amount of aromatising compounds you need to keep e2 in YOUR sweet spot and stack with high anabolic low androgenic compounds that will be the horsepower of the cycle?

This is a question, please save me, someone.

[SampsonandDelilah]

Wow there you have it.
The classic stack used by golden era bbers. Common sense has returned.
What gets me is why the trend today of over the top dosing of aromatisable compounds that upon reaching peak blood concentration creates a cascade of side effects that then need to be mitigated with strength and gains killing ais?
Why not run the least amount of aromatising compounds you need to keep e2 in YOUR sweet spot and stack with high anabolic low androgenic compounds that will be the horsepower of the cycle?

This is a question, please save me, someone.

You don’t need saving, I think you nailed it.

Especially alarming at the “amateur” level and by that I mean those of us that have zero stage aspirations.

[charger69]

Wow there you have it.
The classic stack used by golden era bbers. Common sense has returned.
What gets me is why the trend today of over the top dosing of aromatisable compounds that upon reaching peak blood concentration creates a cascade of side effects that then need to be mitigated with strength and gains killing ais?
Why not run the least amount of aromatising compounds you need to keep e2 in YOUR sweet spot and stack with high anabolic low androgenic compounds that will be the horsepower of the cycle?

This is a question, please save me, someone.

Well, there seems to be a lot of controversy over this. I will make a log on my estrogen phase of the cycle. I will be the lab rat. I am trying to perfect it, but haven’t yet. I still think that I will still need to adjust it.
A lot of people take an AI because they “are supposed to “ not because they need it. The question is... what is your sweet spot?
Back in the day, little knowledge was available. They did t do PCT. there is more knowledge available and increased testing.
I have ran low and high in just about everything and I never feel like I know everything. Seeing how I grew when I stopped using an AI and then when I did an estrogen rich cycle has me thinking that I am on to something. Phase cycling is another thing that I am trying to perfect. I have an anabolic and androgenic phase.


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[Gallowmere]

Never seen a cycle based on numbers in this way. Makes way more sense obviously but would love to learn more. Any resources you can suggest?

Broderick Chavez’s resources aren’t public, unfortunately. He gives away a fair amount of general info for free, but his actual practical advice is behind a paywall on his website teamevilgsp.com
That said, if you just Google his name along with “podcast” you can find a shitload of stuff from him that is freely available. Dude’s hilarious to boot, and is obsessed in his knowledge of three things: human biology, PEDs, and coffee. The human biology part obviously covers nutrition and training.

[Gallowmere]

So 250# is 113.398 kilograms.
So if I’m reading this correctly and based off of that math, I would want 340 mgs of test, 560 mgs of mast, 340 mgs of deca and 396 mgs of anavar ? That’s per week, right? So you break the var up daily and that equates to about 56 mgs per day. Am I doing the math correctly for this logic?

(A tad lower on test and deca thank normal and a tad higher on mast but spot on for Var)

The dosages aren’t that far off from what I’ve run historically which is interesting....

Thanks Gallow and to whoever’s thread I just hijacked (just looked, sorry TMO)

Pretty damned close, and I’d say just round to whatever is easiest to actually draw and pin based on your compounds dosing. I went with 300/300/480, primarily because my test and deca are 250/ml and Mast is 200/ml, so .3+.3+.6 4x/week makes the drawing much easier without a bunch of fuckery between syringe marks. And remember, the mast is on a big ass range of 5-10/kg, so that could be anywhere between what you have there and 1100 or so. I just always start on the more conservative end, as I’m not exactly fucking huge at this point.

[SampsonandDelilah]

Did I miss why the huge doses of mast? I’ve always been a fan and think it has a lot of uses and things to offer but why such big blasts?

[SampsonandDelilah]

Pretty damned close, and I’d say just round to whatever is easiest to actually draw and pin based on your compounds dosing. I went with 300/300/480, primarily because my test and deca are 250/ml and Mast is 200/ml, so .3+.3+.6 4x/week makes the drawing much easier without a bunch of fuckery between syringe marks. And remember, the mast is on a big ass range of 5-10/kg, so that could be anywhere between what you have there and 1100 or so. I just always start on the more conservative end, as I’m not exactly fucking huge at this point.

and while maybe not “fucking huge”, absolutely one of the best transformations ever. Fucking badassery
You’re smart as shit too bro

(Alright enough of the Internet hand job)

[Gallowmere]

Did I miss why the huge doses of mast? I’ve always been a fan and think it has a lot of uses and things to offer but why such big blasts?

Mast has gained a goofy (and unearned) reputation over the years as “primarily androgenic ”. Chavez’s entire reasoning behind it is that using just the 3/kg test and 5-10/kg Mast, he’s been able to repeatedly and verifiably (through four compartment body composition testing) put what translates to ~100g/week of dry contractile tissue on his clientele. The mast dosage scales up as people get bigger, while the test dosage remains static.
Contrary to all of the silly ass “hardener” and “cosmetic drug” nonsense, it’s actually a fairly potent anabolic . It falls into that same realm as Anavar where people think it’s “weak” because it doesn’t slam you with 10 lbs. of bloat in the first week. If anything, it “hides” some of what people normally think of as “test gains”, because of its proven anti-estrogen capabilities.
Some have started buying into the silly bro bullshit that it doesn’t do that either, because they dose it low as shit while running a gram+ of test. Yeah, nothing short of targeted aromatase inhibitors will keep that dose from turning you into a water buffalo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5742531/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2830431/

[Gallowmere]

and while maybe not “fucking huge”, absolutely one of the best transformations ever. Fucking badassery
You’re smart as shit too bro

(Alright enough of the Internet hand job)

Haha, greatly appreciated.
I didn’t mean it in a derogatory sense toward myself though. More that, I just don’t have the mass of muscular androgen receptors yet to justify the higher end doses.
People get it fucked up on how this stuff works mechanistically. Essentially it’s a collision model. The higher the concentration of anything in your system, the more likely that receptors will come into contact with that substance. They lock up, information is transmitted, they are released and go about their merry way again. So, let’s say you have enough muscular receptors to hold the total equivalent of 15mg/kg total androgenic agent. Anything beyond that is going to do absolutely nothing but increase the likelihood of that shit ending up where you don’t want it (organs, prostate, follicles, sebum sites, etc.). That stuff is going to get hit anyway just through pure chance, so why make it worse to no benefit?

[Fluidic Kimbo]

I went with 300/300/480, primarily because my test and deca are 250/ml and Mast is 200/ml, so .3+.3+.6 4x/week makes the drawing much easier without a bunch of fuckery between syringe marks.

For my next cycle -- depending how crazy it is -- I'll get an empty sterile 30cc vial, and I'll transfer my other 10cc vials of Test, Tren , Eq into it in the desired ratios (e.g. 1 : 6 : 10).

Then I'll get a nail varnish shaker and put my 30cc vial into it and set it shaking for 2 or 3 minutes.

Then I just suck up and shoot.

[charger69]

Mast has gained a goofy (and unearned) reputation over the years as “primarily androgenic ”. Chavez’s entire reasoning behind it is that using just the 3/kg test and 5-10/kg Mast, he’s been able to repeatedly and verifiably (through four compartment body composition testing) put what translates to ~100g/week of dry contractile tissue on his clientele. The mast dosage scales up as people get bigger, while the test dosage remains static.
Contrary to all of the silly ass “hardener” and “cosmetic drug” nonsense, it’s actually a fairly potent anabolic . It falls into that same realm as Anavar where people think it’s “weak” because it doesn’t slam you with 10 lbs. of bloat in the first week. If anything, it “hides” some of what people normally think of as “test gains”, because of its proven anti-estrogen capabilities.
Some have started buying into the silly bro bullshit that it doesn’t do that either, because they dose it low as shit while running a gram+ of test. Yeah, nothing short of targeted aromatase inhibitors will keep that dose from turning you into a water buffalo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5742531/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2830431/

Thanks for the studies. The first one really doesn’t say much except maybe we are on to something.
It caught my Interest because I need to be careful with the DHT and my prostrate, so I think just the opposite of the study. For those that don’t know, an enlarged prostrate is reason to start checking for cancer.


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[Gallowmere]

Thanks for the studies. The first one really doesn’t say much except maybe we are on to something.
It caught my Interest because I need to be careful with the DHT and my prostrate, so I think just the opposite of the study. For those that don’t know, an enlarged prostrate is reason to start checking for cancer.


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Yeah, I have several damned studies by name that I recall, but sci-hub is currently being a bitch, and the main one has been lost to time outside of the original paywalled version. Love you guys, but I’m not paying $200 and uploading here just to prove a point. xD
ETA: it’s also in some slavic language that I damned sure can’t read without the translated version.

[charger69]

Yeah, I have several damned studies by name that I recall, but sci-hub is currently being a bitch, and the main one has been lost to time outside of the original paywalled version. Love you guys, but I’m not paying $200 and uploading here just to prove a point. xD
ETA: it’s also in some slavic language that I damned sure can’t read without the translated version.

If you come across anything ( I know you will) about mast and prostrate cancer prevention, please let me know. Right now, I have my opinions, but some data showing otherwise can change that. Obviously, I will look at it critically.


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[Gallowmere]

If you come across anything ( I know you will) about mast and prostrate cancer prevention, please let me know. Right now, I have my opinions, but some data showing otherwise can change that. Obviously, I will look at it critically.


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I honestly don’t believe that Drostanolone has been looked at in any way for this purpose, unfortunately. The entirety of the literature at this point is based around testosterone , DHT itself, and androgen deprivation therapy. Masteron fell out of favor entirely for it’s designed purpose a long time ago, and to my knowledge there isn’t even a pharmaceutical company making it currently. As such, this means that medical research is probably never going to happen for what would be a currently off-label use.