HCG Suggested?

[H.pYl0ri]

1-4 75mg Prop ED
1-18 500mg Enan
1-17 400mg EQ
7-20 75mg Fina ED

I wanted to make sure I have everything. I have the clomid, Liquarim, & Nolvadex . I've been reading alot about HCG and I think it would be beneficial for me, atleast with the atrophy part aswell as the post cycle recovery. I wasn't really sure about how much and when. I've read several different articles and posts, some say at the end, some say during and some say during and at the end. Types that are available to me are:

One is Pregnyl 3 ampules kit, each ampule 5000iu, total 15000iu. Another one is some brand from Poland, 5 ampule kit, each ampule 2000iu, total 10000iu.

[H.pYl0ri]

BUMP C'mon Guys.

Just want to know if it would be better to add the Hcg and if so how much and when?

[MBaraso]

I would use it for a 20 week cycle.
I'd take 5000 in week 16 and another 5000 during clomid, and 5000 post clomid.

[H.pYl0ri]

Thanks for replying!
So would it be 5000 in one shot? 3 times? Break it down for me.

Week 16: 5000IU HCG total
Week ?: 5000IU HCG total
Week ?: 2500IU or 5000IU HCG total

[arby]

use it...

you should do your own research on the dosages, but as an alternative, may i recommend taking 500 iu every 4-5 days.

RB

[H.pYl0ri]

I understand that I need to do the research and have stated that there are different doses and different times. I'm asking what would be the best for this cycle....

[arby]

well first you didnt state whether or not you were going to be using the liquidarim. using hcg at 5000iu/day for a week can cause a massive estrogen buildup... that's why you need to do your research and find out what's best for you.

RB

[H.pYl0ri]

Arby...EVERYTHING you have SAID I have read! Please stop posting if you don't know the answer. Nolv, CLomid & arimidex /liquidex are essentials for all cycles. SO please use common sense and know that those are a must. I need specifics...SPECIFICS pertaining to my particular cycle. I know that there are plenty of posts about HCG but none agree with each other and the ones that do are just the same pasted articles as the other post...So please don't tell me to research..... Open your eyes! I mean even below my post are similar threads of the same subject but could you get a conclusion from them with this particular cycle? NO. So please stop acting you know! For example, I pulled this of of an article by WIlliam Llewellyn Understanding post cycle "T" recovery:

Sample Post-cycle Plan:


Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily

BUt then you get a response like this:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Rickson
Well my problem with this is Bill Llewllyn didn't conduct any of this research. This is not his theory although I am sure he would like you to believe it is his. He basically took info that most of us already know, threw in some studies, left out info that are in those studies to make sure it fits what he is explaining and then packaged it in an article to try and up his steroid Guru image. None of it is new and honestly some of it is misleading. There is research to show that HCG will lengthen recovery when it is taken without AAS in the system. It also seems foolish to take something to combat testicular atrophy if you are not suffering from it. Very few people suffer from serious testicular atrophy from a ten week cycle and clomid usually quickly restores size and volume. It isn't that HCG is not useful but should be utilized when necessary. It would be nice if he referenced a study less then 22 years old as well. I just want people to realize that just because someone publishes an article doesn't mean people should blindly believe it. If it works for you go for it but there are many very experienced users who are wary of the overuse of HCG from personal experience. As always this is a trial and error business we are in and everyone reacts differently. All you can do is take the experiences of others and hope that guides you in finding what works for you. ENd Quote.

So you tell me? I need a breakdown from someone who knows. I've completely read aleast 100 posts about hcg or posts that list hcg. So again don't tell me to research. I wouldn't ask if I could find the answer. But even then I'm gonna double, triple quadruple check it till I feel like I know what I'm doing. Hate me if you want but I ain't mad at ya.

[Lift Chief]

If i were you i would use it half way through the cycle at 500ius ED for 10 days.

Then again 10 days before clomid at 500iu ED.

Taht would be 2 5,000iu bottles...

You may not need to take it half way through but i personally feel it's always better to try to prevent than to rectify a situation after it's already happened.

[H.pYl0ri]

OK. Lift chief, I thank you for your post and for giving me some useful information. After talking with some mods/vets I have been given an HCG program specific to my cycle. Here is the complete cycle thanks to all the help from a perticular vet here on the board.

1-4 75mg Prop ED
1-18 500mg Enan
1-17 400mg EQ
7-20 75mg Fina ED
HCG:
Wk15 500iu Sat & 500iu Sun
wk17 500iu Sat & 500iu Sun
wk18 500iu ED
wk19 500iu ED
wk20 500iu ED days 1-6
.5mg arimidex ED wks 1-20
10mg nolvadex ED wks 1-20
Clomid starts 3 days after last fina shot
300mg day 1/100 mg days 2-11(10 days)/50mgs days 12-21(10 days)

[H.pYl0ri]

A little info on administration of HCG for those who need to know

Generic Name: E: CHORIONIC GONADOTROPIN (kor-ee-ON-ik goe-NAD-oh-troe-pin)

Drug Manufacturer: ORGANON

Common Uses: This medicine is a hormone used to treat infertility in males and females. It may be used to treat other conditions as determined by your doctor.

How to use this Medicine: This medicine is given as an injection into the muscle. IF YOU ARE USING THIS MEDICINE AT HOME, a healthcare professional will provide detailed instructions for its appropriate use. Ask any questions that you may have about this medicine or giving injections. Using the technique described to you by your doctor or nurse, add the diluent to the vial that contains the medicine. Mix the solution by gently rotating the vial. DO NOT SHAKE. The solution should be clear and free of particles. Wipe the rubber stopper of the vial with an alcohol swab. Insert the needle straight through the center circle of the rubber stopper. Draw up the solution for injection. After drawing up the solution, switch needles. Needles with higher gauge (25G or higher) are smaller and are more comfortable to the patient. Be sure all air bubbles are tapped out of the syringe. Wipe the appropriate injection site (usually the upper thigh or buttocks) with an alcohol swab, then insert the syringe. TO BE SURE THAT THE NEEDLE IS NOT IN A VEIN, pull back on the plunger of the syringe while holding the syringe in place. If the syringe begins to fill with blood, the needle is in a vein. If this happens, remove the needle from the skin, throw the syringe away, and start the procedure again using new materials (drugs, syringes, etc.). AFTER GIVING THE INJECTION, cover the injection site with a small bandage if necessary. STORE THIS MEDICINE as directed on the prescription label.

Cautions: KEEP ALL DOCTOR AND LABORATORY APPOINTMENTS while you are using this medicine. IF YOU PLAN ON BECOMING PREGNANT, discuss with your doctor the benefits and risks of using this medicine during pregnancy.

Possible Side Effects: SIDE EFFECTS, that may go away during treatment, include headache, breast tenderness, restlessness, or tiredness. CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE if you experience swelling of feet or legs, pain or redness at the injection site, or depressed mood. FEMALES: CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE if you experience abdominal pain or swelling. If you notice other effects not listed above, contact your doctor, nurse, or pharmacist.

[Mudge]

I agree with the Quake fan, 500iu a day, 1000 max.

[BASK8KACE]

Bump.

Xxample

[johnsomebody]

I agree, it's way better to go lower dose, like 500iu every few days. From what I've read large doses can cause gyno due to the test spike you'll get. Plus from what I've read too much HCG can fry your own LH production.

I'd say keep in mind you should only use it if you need it. Some guys just don't get shrinkage from gear.

[Phillyboy1]

do it this way, 250 - 500 I.U.'s every 4th day threw the cycle and finish using it 2 weeks after you last injection of AAS. DO NOT use it with clomid....

HCG mimics the LH (luteinizing hormone) produced by the pituitary gland in your brain, clomid is supposed to be used to restart your pituitary gland into making LH.. If you use the HCG and Clomid at the same time your body will see the LH from the HCG and still not make any. so all your clomid will be wasted. so when your done your PCT with clomid and HCG your nuts still wont be doing there job.

you want to use the HCG during the cycle to prevent your nuts from shrinking (atrophy SP?) in the first place. making restarting them alot easier when you start clomid therapy. got any questions just PM me and ill answer them

[legend]

i would not do it throughout the whole cycle. there is no reason for that. do it in the middle of the cycle and then at the end just before clomid starts. through out is senseless. hcg is not a great drug to be using for long periods of time. it will **** you up if you do.in a 20 week cycle, i'd do it around weeks 8-10, and then again at weks 18-20. 500iu every 3-5 days is the way i go also. but i lie to do the first shot at 1000iu, then 500 till the bottle is gone.usually around three weeks. 2-5000iu bottle is good. 1 mid and 1 end. my opinion, based on my own experiences.

[Phillyboy1]

do it this way, 250 - 500 I.U.'s every 4th day threw the cycle and finish using it 2 weeks after you last injection of AAS. DO NOT use it with clomid....

HCG mimics the LH (luteinizing hormone) produced by the pituitary gland in your brain, clomid is supposed to be used to restart your pituitary gland into making LH.. If you use the HCG and Clomid at the same time your body will see the LH from the HCG and still not make any. so all your clomid will be wasted. so when your done your PCT with clomid and HCG your nuts still wont be doing there job.

you want to use the HCG during the cycle to prevent your nuts from shrinking (atrophy SP?) in the first place. making restarting them alot easier when you start clomid therapy. got any questions just PM me and ill answer them

my opinion is based on experiance too and on the thoughts of most of the mods and vets on this board. HCG will become useless if you used it in large amounts, what happens is it becomes non effective. but at 250 - 500 I.U.'s its hardly alot. ill find the Doctor's quote that said to do it this way.

[Phillyboy1]

have fun reading:


This is Dr. John's(Swale) PCT protocal.

Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.