First Cycle, let me know if this is good

[tinymuscles]

Week 1-12 Test E 500mg/week
Week 1-4 Dbol 30mg/daily
Week 4-14 HCG 500iu/weekly (starting it after dbol to prevent high estrogen levels)

PCT
Week 14-18 Clomid 40/40/20/20
Possibly add nolvadex ?? unsure for 40/40/20/20

AI
Take ONLY if i experience any gyno symptoms .5mg E3.5D

Please give me
in depth feedback with an explaination

[tinymuscles]

so you do not recommend stacking dbol ontop of my cycle?

[tinymuscles]

Thank you, also another question about Arimidex , should I wait to see signs of gyno before taking it? or should I automatically start taking it the first day of injections? .5mg eod correct 3.5 days?

[tinymuscles]

Ya i read that you don’t wanna put your estro levels too low... I’ll probably hold off until i see signs of gyno? or should I just take it anyways?

[Vasculardiscuss]

The thinking on AI is somewhat fluid. Personally, I would say if you aren't having any high estrogen negative effects, then I would not take it.

BUT, this is your first cycle. That sticky outlines a nearly idiot proof routine, safe for almost any man. Can it be optimized for given individuals? Yes. But without the knowledge and experience to do so safely, you might end up in a bad spot.

I thought the sticky recommended .25mg adex EOD, though even that could be excessive for a given individual. Once again, without the knowledge and experience to evaluate in real time, it might be better to stick with the program.

Great info here. Everyone is different...I personally would not run AI to start with.

As far as adding the dbol , I would hold off on that untill a later time. I have bad sides from dbol and don't use it. You should have great gains with test only and you will understand how you react to it, next cycle add something else and you will understand that compound too

Good job on doing your homework and getting a plan going, have your diet and training planned out too

[David LoPan]

I agree, no dbol and no AI unless you need it. I would get a blood test not wait to see if you get S/S of gyno. I would start HCG on week one. Protect them boys brother. They are the only two you will ever have.

[Chark]

No dbol . If you're unlucky and your find out body doesn't handle 500mg test well you're adding gasoline to a fire with dbol. Dbol is an extremely potent estrogenic compound and the cycle you mentioned is how a lot of guys begin and end up regretting. IMO ideally one would start with 400mg of test or so and see how that goes and slowly add to that with each successive cycle. I know you're excited to get all the gains but you want to get the most out of the least drug load.

One thing to keep in mind is if you begin your cycling career with an AI you're never going to know how your body takes to aromatase. You'll end up using an AI for every cycle as you continue to pile on a higher drug load. Some people need that...but if you don't you're taking a toxic drug that you didn't need to take. Also remember that if you notice gyno, an AI is only going to inhibit future aromatization...it's not going to do anything for the gyno. Not saying you shouldn't then implement an AI but nolvadex should be taken as it occupies receptors at breast tissue.

Make a log of your cycle and show progress pics under member cycle results. Good luck!

[tinymuscles]

Okay no dbol it is then. Little bit
difficult to get a blood test where i live due to a complete shut down. I’ll hold off on taking the Arimidex , what are the best signs or symptoms to look for... such as gyno, how will i know i need to take the AI

[tinymuscles]

Okay that’s fair, I will not start with an AI, but can you tell me the best symptoms and signs i should look for and then i’ll know if i need to jump on it. Also Is nolvadex good enough for a last minute AI if i’m experiencing symptoms or does it have to be arimidex ?

[Chark]

Okay that’s fair, I will not start with an AI, but can you tell me the best symptoms and signs i should look for and then i’ll know if i need to jump on it. Also Is nolvadex good enough for a last minute AI if i’m experiencing symptoms or does it have to be arimidex?

AI's stop the testosterone from aromatizing into estrogen. Nolvadex boxes out estrogen at breast tissue, it doesn't lower your estrogen or prevent you from getting other estrogenic side effects other than gyno.

[tinymuscles]

Okay so to get this straight just wait before I take any AI, see how my body reacts, what signs or symptoms will tell me that i should start taking an AI

[tinymuscles]

I agree, no dbol and no AI unless you need it. I would get a blood test not wait to see if you get S/S of gyno. I would start HCG on week one. Protect them boys brother. They are the only two you will ever have.

what signs or symptoms should i look for before i take an AI

[Vasculardiscuss]

Blood work would tell you for sure. In my experience you will know when gyno is becoming a problem, itchy nipples and they become very sore and painful to the touch. 20mg nolvadex each day will clear it up quickly

You should be okay with testosterone .

As long as training and diet are in check you can have a solid cycle. Don't forget to start a log

[rise_against]

You need to wait for the test e to clear your system before you pct. Go off for 4-6 weeks and then pct. It has like a 8 day half life and will supress you for 5 full half lives. Also don't use dbol . You don't need it during the first cycle

[Vasculardiscuss]

You need to wait for the test e to clear your system before you pct. Go off for 4-6 weeks and then pct. It has like a 8 day half life and will supress you for 5 full half lives. Also don't use dbol. You don't need it during the first cycle

No, I don't agree with that. Go look at the start time sticky in pct. Test E,14 days after.

You have your timing right on pct, keep it two weeks after last pin.

You don't need both climid and nolvadex ... I would recommend using both, I personally use both in pct

[Chark]

You need to wait for the test e to clear your system before you pct. Go off for 4-6 weeks and then pct. It has like a 8 day half life and will supress you for 5 full half lives. Also don't use dbol. You don't need it during the first cycle

This is contrary to the advice often seen here of 2 weeks but I have also heard the 5 full half lives on a moreplates moredates video. I believe it was called "90% of bb'ers have never done a proper PCT." Anyway, that's a whole different conversation. OP you'll be fine, just use test and forget about the dbol . Follow the rest of what you learned already here. Let us know if you have anymore questions.

[tinymuscles]

Thanks everyone for the help. This is my revised cycle, please confirm if it’s okay to start.

Always sanitize

18gauge needle for drawing
25gauge needle for injection

Week 1-10 400mg TEST E/weekly .8ml x2
Week 1-10 HCG 500iu/weekly

Post cycle therapy

Week 12-16
Nolvadex Dosing - 40/40/20/20
Clomid Dosing - 75/50/50/50

If I experience water retention or gyno - get arimidex - .25 mg EOD

[Chark]

Thanks everyone for the help. This is my revised cycle, please confirm if it’s okay to start.

Always sanitize

18gauge needle for drawing
25gauge needle for injection

Week 1-10 400mg TEST E/weekly .8ml x2
Week 1-10 HCG 500iu/weekly

Post cycle therapy

Week 12-16
Nolvadex Dosing - 40/40/20/20
Clomid Dosing - 75/50/50/50

If I experience water retention or gyno - get arimidex - .25 mg EOD

Looks great. If you experience gyno, you'll want to begin taking 10-20mg nolvadex immediately in addition for the reasons I stated on one of your threads. Everything looks good, maybe double check the nolvadex dosing...i'm not sure if it's recommended 40/40/20/20 but rather 40/20/20/20, i could be wrong though. Have fun with this!

[David LoPan]

Thanks everyone for the help. This is my revised cycle, please confirm if it’s okay to start.

Always sanitize

18gauge needle for drawing
25gauge needle for injection

Week 1-10 400mg TEST E/weekly .8ml x2
Week 1-10 HCG 500iu/weekly

Post cycle therapy

Week 12-16
Nolvadex Dosing - 40/40/20/20
Clomid Dosing - 75/50/50/50

If I experience water retention or gyno - get arimidex - .25 mg EOD

Me personally I would go with HCG until you start PCT or until your boys look and feel natural. This is all depending on the individual. I take way more HCG on cycle than 500IU a week, so keep an eye on it. HCG is cheap so just remember that.

Dex is not taken for water retention. You are going to notice water retention. It is just gonna happen. Now edema, or pitting edema is something different. You should be able to control access amount of water retention with your diet. Watch your sodium intake.

[tinymuscles]

Looks great. If you experience gyno, you'll want to begin taking 10-20mg nolvadex immediately in addition for the reasons I stated on one of your threads. Everything looks good, maybe double check the nolvadex dosing...i'm not sure if it's recommended 40/40/20/20 but rather 40/20/20/20, i could be wrong though. Have fun with this!

Okay. thanks, if i experience gyno do i really need the arimidex or is nolva fine until it
subsides? or take both

[tinymuscles]

Me personally I would go with HCG until you start PCT or until your boys look and feel natural. This is all depending on the individual. I take way more HCG on cycle than 500IU a week, so keep an eye on it. HCG is cheap so just remember that.

Dex is not taken for water retention. You are going to notice water retention. It is just gonna happen. Now edema, or pitting edema is something different. You should be able to control access amount of water retention with your diet. Watch your sodium intake.

Okay thank you, I will definitely run it up to starting my PCT

[Chark]

one thing to be aware of is it's easy as a newbie to start thinking every sensation is omg gyno. i think it's quite unlikely you will get gyno from this cycle. you are going to go from never thinking about your nipples to thinking about your nipples and it's easy to placebo yourself into it. just something to keep mind.

[tinymuscles]

Good advice thus far!

Have EVERYTHING on hand BEFORE you start your cycle. It will royally suck to need an AI, for instance, and not be able to get it.

Good luck man!

I have everything except arimidex , that’s why i’m
wondering if nolva will work if i start experiencing Gyno? If it doesn’t i’ll
grab some Arimidex.

Also what can you guys expect me
to gain from this cycle, i’m 5”9 160lb 29 years old

[tinymuscles]

one thing to be aware of is it's easy as a newbie to start thinking every sensation is omg gyno. i think it's quite unlikely you will get gyno from this cycle. you are going to go from never thinking about your nipples to thinking about your nipples and it's easy to placebo yourself into it. just something to keep mind.

I have everything except arimidex , that’s why i’m
wondering if nolva will work if i start experiencing Gyno? If it doesn’t i’ll
grab some Arimidex.

Also what can you guys expect me
to gain from this cycle, i’m 5”9 160lb 29 years old

[Vasculardiscuss]

Nolva will not bring down estrogen, it will only block it from reaction. Arimidex well lower the estrogen, I always have it ready. Even though I have never used it.

You will most likely not use it, you should always have it ready.

Depending on your diet and training, you should be able to hit a solid 175-185.

[Chark]

I have everything except arimidex , that’s why i’m
wondering if nolva will work if i start experiencing Gyno? If it doesn’t i’ll
grab some Arimidex.

Also what can you guys expect me
to gain from this cycle, i’m 5”9 160lb 29 years old

It's always good to have both on hand. In the mail isn't on hand

What can you expect? It's hard to say. We each have our own individual genetic responses to AAS. Some people BLOW up. Also will completely depend on how good your diet/training/sleep regimen is. I went from ~164 to a quality ~194 at 5'6, you can see my first cycle log with pics and what I did in the members cycle subforum. The fellas here commented that it was very unusual and it was a phenomenal response. I was a little older than you are. Just do your best, you only get one first cycle where you're PRIMED for growth.

[Honkey_Kong]

I have everything except arimidex , that’s why i’m
wondering if nolva will work if i start experiencing Gyno? If it doesn’t i’ll
grab some Arimidex.

Also what can you guys expect me
to gain from this cycle, i’m 5”9 160lb 29 years old

Nolva can help fight gyno that's already there, but an AI at the onset of symptoms should be fine (don't take too much either). You should have both on hand. It's easier to bulk if you're getting the "wet" effects from the estrogen so you don't want to kill it off (plus it'll make your joints hurt and will give you problems popping a boner if you completely crash your estrogens).


At 5'9 and 160lbs, honestly you need to eat more. In fact, I'd put off this cycle for 6 months to a year and spend that time training yourself to eat more food. Steroids aren't magic and you're not going to grow very much if you're not consuming enough food. What little gains you make from it, will likely not make it through your PCT. It's not something to hurt your feelings or anything, it's just a fact.

[Chark]

Nolva can help fight gyno that's already there, but an AI at the onset of symptoms should be fine (don't take too much either). You should have both on hand. It's easier to bulk if you're getting the "wet" effects from the estrogen so you don't want to kill it off (plus it'll make your joints hurt and will give you problems popping a boner if you completely crash your estrogens).


At 5'9 and 160lbs, honestly you need to eat more. In fact, I'd put off this cycle for 6 months to a year and spend that time training yourself to eat more food. Steroids aren't magic and you're not going to grow very much if you're not consuming enough food. What little gains you make from it, will likely not make it through your PCT. It's not something to hurt your feelings or anything, it's just a fact.

This is very true and it's not to rain on your parade. Estrogen is an anabolic hormone and has several benefits (including keeping your dick working). From a muscle-building perspective alone, it's not something that bodybuilders should be looking to avoid. It can be done but Honkey is right, you will need to make sure you're eating enough and continue that through PCT and beyond to give your body a reason to hold onto all that newly acquired mass. We don't want you to be underwhelmed with your cycle results.

PCT is a bitch too...it's hard to keep a significant amount of what you gained when your hormones will be in the toilet for a significant period of time. I don't want to say it's temporary muscle, but it's...there's a quote I heard that i'm going to butcher but it's something like "steroids are like playing at a blackjack table where you're always winning but if you leave the table you can't take your winnings, so you just have to keep playing."

[tinymuscles]

This is very true and it's not to rain on your parade. Estrogen is an anabolic hormone and has several benefits (including keeping your dick working). From a muscle-building perspective alone, it's not something that bodybuilders should be looking to avoid. It can be done but Honkey is right, you will need to make sure you're eating enough and continue that through PCT and beyond to give your body a reason to hold onto all that newly acquired mass. We don't want you to be underwhelmed with your cycle results.

PCT is a bitch too...it's hard to keep a significant amount of what you gained when your hormones will be in the toilet for a significant period of time. I don't want to say it's temporary muscle, but it's...there's a quote I heard that i'm going to butcher but it's something like "steroids are like playing at a blackjack table where you're always winning but if you leave the table you can't take your winnings, so you just have to keep playing."

I know I’ll stay hard in the gym, and eat good. I’d hope to retain at least 50% of my gains. I have a smaller sized genetic body, I eat and eat and eat but it’s hard for me to keep weight on.

[tinymuscles]

also what’s the best place to shoot the hcg ? thigh?

[Hughinn]

also what’s the best place to shoot the hcg? thigh?

In the fat of the belly. Just under the skin.

HCG is subcutaneously injected. Not intramuscular.

[Honkey_Kong]

I know I’ll stay hard in the gym, and eat good. I’d hope to retain at least 50% of my gains. I have a smaller sized genetic body, I eat and eat and eat but it’s hard for me to keep weight on.

Are you weighing your portions and counting your calories and macros? The only way you know how much you're actually eating is if you quantify it. Skinny people tend to think they eat more than they actually do. Fat people think they eat less than they do. The human mind remembers tends to remember the good things and think they happened more frequently than they do.

And really if you're quantifying your diet, it's easier to schedule times to eat and it's easier to increase/decrease the portions to meet your needs.

[AwareXx]

This is a very informational thread. Great info as always.

[Chark]

I know I’ll stay hard in the gym, and eat good. I’d hope to retain at least 50% of my gains. I have a smaller sized genetic body, I eat and eat and eat but it’s hard for me to keep weight on.

If you are this body type and it’s not what Honkey said about people very commonly not well estimating what they’re eating...then you need to eat on top of what you’re doing now because what you’re doing down is keeping you this lean. A real easy way if you feel like you can’t eat anymore is adding nuts or nut butters to your diet. Try adding a shake with milk, protein powder, quick oats, peanut butter, and banana.

[Honkey_Kong]

If you are this body type and it’s not what Honkey said about people very commonly not well estimating what they’re eating...then you need to eat on top of what you’re doing now because what you’re doing down is keeping you this lean. A real easy way if you feel like you can’t eat anymore is adding nuts or nut butters to your diet. Try adding a shake with milk, protein powder, quick oats, peanut butter, and banana.

An easier way of "eating more," isn't increasing the portion sizes. It's just simply adding a meal in your day. Also, I've found that I have problems with overly processed foods. I just feel "fuller" longer.

[tinymuscles]

To add to this, OP, if you think you are eating now and having a hard time, add some MK-677, say 12.5mg per night, even 3 to 4 nights a week. Good legit MK (like oh say what you might find from Mike Arnold) jacks my appetite through. the. roof. I love the effects, but can not handle the appetite. I believe this would be an EXCELLENT add on to your cycle (especially being your first cycle). If you tolerate the lower dose, you could go as high as 25mg 5 nights a week, but I suggest easing into it.

And of course, you might respond differently, but a lot of people report the appetite stimulation.

I think i’ll keep it simple on just the test e cycle for now, i’ve done all my research on that and i’ll add a mutant mass weight gainer to my diet, 1300 calories extra per day

[rise_against]

....

[rise_against]

No, I don't agree with that. Go look at the start time sticky in pct. Test E,14 days after.

You have your timing right on pct, keep it two weeks after last pin.

You don't need both climid and nolvadex... I would recommend using both, I personally use both in pct

That's old bro science If it's still in your system at unnatural levels it's going to continue to supress you. Clomid and nova doesn't clear it out faster. It will do nothing until it clears your system. Studies show 5 half lives before it's low enough for a pct to have an effect. For test e that's like 6+ weeks minimum. Test prop might be 2 weeks.. long lasting esters can take months on end

[Vasculardiscuss]

That's old bro science If it's still in your system at unnatural levels it's going to continue to supress you. Clomid and nova doesn't clear it out faster. It will do nothing until it clears your system. Studies show 5 half lives before it's low enough for a pct to have an effect. For test e that's like 6+ weeks minimum. Test prop might be 2 weeks.. long lasting esters can take months on end

I see the point your trying to make, I still don't agree. I have successfully recovered from cycling anabolics with the sticky recommended PCT here at this forum. And many others have as well.

It's not old bro science, it's proven to work. There's no reason to fix what is not broken with this new age bro science bullshit.

[owias]

Run 400 for 16 weeks to see result
u need healthy high calories .
if u are not satisfied for result in week 10-11 , take anadrol 50 for only last 4 weeks with Liver support tablet

Note : I highly recommend use hcg from week 1 or 2 until pct start .

Good Luck ..