Steroids and Protein vs. Amino Acids

**BASK8KACE** · 07-26-2003, 08:31 AM

3 questions:

--When a person is on a cycle, can eating amino acids (pill or powder form) be occasionally substituted for protein from meals or shakes?

--Do amino acids have the same, better, or lesser effect on the body when injested from a pill or powder as the amino acids that come from full protein souces such as meat and whey?

--What amount of amino acids needs to be injested to be equivalent to 10 grams of protein from chicken, beef or whey?

**cb25** · 07-26-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

3 questions:

--When a person is on a cycle, can eating amino acids (pill or powder form) be occasionally substituted for protein from meals or shakes?

--Do amino acids have the same, better, or lesser effect on the body when injested from a pill or powder as the amino acids that come from full protein souces such as meat and whey?

--What amount of amino acids needs to be injested to be equivalent to 10 grams of protein from chicken, beef or whey?

Technically you could substitute amino acids (AA) for your protein. However you'd have to take such an unbelievable amount of AA to make up the difference. Think about it this way, 50g of AA = 50 g of protein. The big difference is that the protein takes longer to be digested/absorbed by the body.

As far as the effect, you're getting more or less the same effect. The benefit of meat is that it contains other vitamins (b12 etc) and creatine that you will use. Protein is protein is protein, imho...they just breakdown and absorb at different rates.

That being said, there are benefits of taking supplemental glutamine or branch chain aminos in addition to your protein intake.

**ColdSore** · 07-26-2003, 09:34 AM

Amino acids are a waste of money IMO...if your diet is right and you drinking a good protein shake right after your workout you should be fine...you would have to take a ton to really get anything out of them anyways which equals more money that could be spent on more gear or food

**BASK8KACE** · 07-26-2003, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by ColdStone

Amino acids are a waste of money IMO...if your diet is right and you drinking a good protein shake right after your workout you should be fine...you would have to take a ton to really get anything out of them anyways which equals more money that could be spent on more gear or food

The reason I'm asking is because I don't want to drink protein shakes (stamps feet on ground in a temper tantrum); but I will if I must. I would prefer using amino acids and a protein powder (not shake) added to some common foods that I eat--cereals, waffles, etc, to supplement my diet of protein from meats.

I'm not looking to use AA (Amino Acids) to replace all of my protein. If I did that, my kidneys would fail. I just want to find alternatives to protein shakes and protein bars.

**BASK8KACE** · 07-26-2003, 09:56 AM

FYI:
The following is a link to an article on amino acids that sparked the questions I've asked at the beginning of this tread:

NOTE--this article was written in part as an ad, so take it with a grain of salt, but good info is in it:
http://www.vmcs.com/spindel/amino.html

**cb25** · 07-26-2003, 10:14 AM

There is a bit of useful info in that article. However, the point remains that AAs are so much more expensive than protein drinks. You can find flavorless (or little flavor) whey protein powders that you can mix in w/ foods that you eat. I mix some protein in w/ my oatmeal every once in a while. You don't HAVE to take it in shake form. Still, I'd stick to protein powders, not AA powders. If all else fails...chicken breasts, egg whites, tuna, etc. I prefer these anyway.

**BASK8KACE** · 07-26-2003, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by cb25

There is a bit of useful info in that article. However, the point remains that AAs are so much more expensive than protein drinks. You can find flavorless (or little flavor) whey protein powders that you can mix in w/ foods that you eat. I mix some protein in w/ my oatmeal every once in a while. You don't HAVE to take it in shake form. Still, I'd stick to protein powders, not AA powders. If all else fails...chicken breasts, egg whites, tuna, etc. I prefer these anyway.

Actually money is not an issue here. The problem is I work in a corporate atmosphere--I'm in high-level meetings often. So, blowing nasty protein farts is NOT acceptable. Get my uh...drift? (Terrible stretch to make a pun)

I think that using AA(amino acids) where possible would spare my stomach, my clients and my colleagues some serious discomfort.

**ColdSore** · 07-26-2003, 10:34 AM

try iso-pure its 100% lactose free, and has a pretty high protein content...i know it doesnt tear up my stomach like other whey does...

**cb25** · 07-26-2003, 10:34 AM

Yea, I get your...drift...well said.

If $ truly is no issue, and you can find a good AA supplement - make sure it has all essential AAs and figure out how much you'll need to take and try it out...just my opinion. Remember, you need to take the same amount of AA as you would regular protein. If you want 50g of protein per serving, you need 50g of AA.

If you find a good product, let me know how you like it...I'd be interested to hear

**longhornDr** · 07-26-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

Actually money is not an issue here. The problem is I work in a corporate atmosphere--I'm in high-level meetings often. So, blowing nasty protein farts is NOT acceptable. Get my uh...drift? (Terrible stretch to make a pun)

I think that using AA(amino acids) where possible would spare my stomach, my clients and my colleagues some serious discomfort.

Why do you think that using AA over protein shakes will not give you bad gas? Taking all your protein requirements in AA form would decrease absorption and thus increase gas.

I suggest you try having a healthy serving of broccoli or some other fibrous green with your protein shake to slow things down and that should solve the gas problem. Flax oil helps a bit with that too if your diet will allow it.

If money is not an issue you could also use micellar caesin, we use it in burn patients with outstanding results. There is real science behind that and not just supplement company claims.

**BASK8KACE** · 07-26-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by cb25

If you want 50g of protein per serving, you need 50g of AA.

Are you sure about this?? I would think that when the body breaks down 10 grams of protein, it does not equal 10 grams of AA. I believe the weights would be different, if only for the fact that the protein has been split apart.

I need to find out how much of each AA is in each gram of meat or whey protein. (PS--I wouldn't rely on the box of a protein shake drink for this info, becuase they are not regulated by the FDA).

**Mudge** · 07-26-2003, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

if only for the fact that the protein has been split apart.

If I cut a pizza into 8 slices who says I throw one away? You use energy to break down food, you dont neccessarily throw stuff away. The idea is to have carbs/fats with the food to avoid losing any as energy (glucose).

Your going to take 40g in amino acid pills? Thats going to be about $15 a meal, waste of f'ing cash. Whats wrong with protein powder? Whats wrong with carrying a can of tuna around? Some chicken with garlic powder and salsa with brown rice?

I fail to see the logic in wanting to swallow 40-80 horse sized pills per meal when it costs so damn much, plus you'd still have to take in some kind of fats/carbs to avoid using the aminos as energy when converted into glucose.

4 of my horse pills = 2 grams of aminos.

Lets look at this in simple terms. How big is a bottle of aminos, versus a meal you would normally eat - at best an amino bottle is between 50-100% of a small meal of mine, unless you get one of the massive $50 bottles or so. Common sense says, they aren't compressing the stuff in there that efficiently, a handfull of pills does a meal make.

Aminos are for quick absorbtion only, you need more than 10-20 minutes worth of aminos in the blood stream to be effective at positive nitrogen retention.

**BASK8KACE** · 07-26-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mudge

And if you split something apart do you lose some? Not neccessarily, even if it became 8 grams, so what?

Your going to take 40g in amino acid pills? Thats going to be about $15 a meal, waste of f'ing cash. Whats wrong with protein powder? Whats wrong with carrying a can of tuna around? Some chicken with garlic powder and salsa with brown rice?

I fail to see the logic in wanting to swallow 40-80 horse sized pills per meal when it costs so damn much, plus you'd still have to take in some kind of fats/carbs to avoid using the aminos as energy when converted into glucose.

4 of my horse pills = 2 grams of aminos.

You may fail to see the logic, but that's not the point. Would you please stop flaming my logic and use of MY money and answer my questions?

If you read my responses you'd have known that I am NOT going to take all my protein supplementaion through amino acids, that would be ridiculous. I only want to know the equivalence for some MINOR supplementation.

There is more to protein than just amino acids, I believe. When you break down protein in a chemical reaction (digestion), I'm guessing the amino acids are present with other by-products of the reaction. I don't believe the AA will weigh the same as the original protein. The AA + the by-products will weigh the same, because there is a conservation of mass in every chemical reaction. For example if you break down a molecule of water into oxygen gas and hydrogen gas, the weight of the combination of the two gases will equal the original weight of the molecule. In other words, the oxygen gas alone will NOT equal the weight of the original water molecule. Therefore I doubt the AA weigh the same as the original protein.

Are there any chemists on the board who can answer my Amino acids and protein equivalence questions?

**cb25** · 07-26-2003, 02:43 PM

I'm not 100% on this, but from my biochem understanding, here goes:

Each protein is essentially a string of aa's bonded together through peptide bonds, no more. If you get pure whey protein, that's what you're getting - just AA's bonded together. If you get (like most of us) any other brand of protein with flavorings, preservatives, etc, you would lose a little, but not an incredible amount. I say 50g = 50g, because it's an estimate. You won't get the equivalent of 50g of protein in 25 g of AA, so you should shoot for closer to your ideal protein intake. Just my .02 - someone correct me if I'm mistaken

**Riki** · 07-27-2003, 12:24 AM

Protein is amino acids! Only the process to differ the protein costs money. But ya stomach does it for free.

Grtz

**arby** · 07-27-2003, 02:31 AM

Look at the amino acid profile of Protein Factory's whey isolate: http://www.proteinfactory.com/in_cfm-whey.htm

If all those mg's add up to one gram, then it's the same gram for gram. Otherwise you can figure out the proportion.

RB

**arby** · 07-27-2003, 02:32 AM

That's funny, it actually adds up to 1100mg+.

RB

**Rookiejay** · 07-27-2003, 05:35 AM

Am I missing something???????

PROTEIN IS AMINO ACIDS

Various proteins may have various strings of amino acids....

It makes me laugh every time I see at the GNC products like "Amino fuel" or "Pure Amino Acids" - GREAT MARKETING to sell simple proteins at inflated prices

Jay

PS
To answer your questions:
1 Yes
2 Depends on the strings in AA - However, meat and whey contain all the strings of AA
3 10g of AA = 10g of protein because 10g of protein = 10g of protein.

The only difference - AA's are chemically "predigested" proteins - thus, get absorbed faster (under 1 hour) - which is something you don't really need, since proteins (AA) remain in your system for only 3 to 4 hours. (why would you want to shorten this time?)

**BASK8KACE** · 07-27-2003, 08:42 AM

Thanks to Rookiejay and the others in this tread who took time to answer my questions directly.

It looks like I will use casein protein powder to add to my food an drinks. Now, the trick now is to find casein protein powder without the flavorings.

**arby** · 07-27-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

Thanks to Rookiejay and the others in this tread who took time to answer my questions directly.

It looks like I will use Whey Protein powder to add to my food an drinks. Now, the trick now is to find whey protein powder without the flavorings.

www.allthewhey.com

**BASK8KACE** · 07-27-2003, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by arby

www.allthewhey.com

Thanks,

I actually meant to write Casein (not Whey). I'm looking for Casein protein powder.

**punk_bbuilder** · 07-27-2003, 02:25 PM

Here is a great site where i get all of my supplements. www.dpsnutrition.com

**arby** · 07-27-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by BASK8KACE

Thanks,

I actually meant to write Casein (not Whey). I'm looking for Casein protein powder.

www.proteincustomizer.com
www.proteinfactory.com also makes unflavored mixes if you so request

RB

**rxarms** · 07-27-2003, 10:44 PM

All you brianiacs are forgeting about protein stereochemistry and denatured protein. I would not trust no one on this, but natural sources. Many benefits we gain from natural sources are lost in the manufacturing process. If the protein is denatured, you may not be getting its full potential. This science is much more involved that what was once thought. It is OK to supplement, but treat it for wwhat it is a supplement. I try to avoid protein powders as much as possible. Keep things as simple and natural as you can. My thoughts

**NBN** · 07-28-2003, 07:26 AM

Hi there BASK8KACE.
There's no way to substitute amino acids for protein, as there are 20(?) essential amino acids you must have at the same time plus a bunch of non-essential aminos that are good to have.

If money is no problem for you, invest in a HIGH QUALITY whey protein powders and good casein powders. I don't know about the good protein powders in the USA so I hope other bro's can help you out with that. Quality protein is well digested and it tastes good.

**cb25** · 07-28-2003, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by NBN

Hi there BASK8KACE.
There's no way to substitute amino acids for protein, as there are 20(?) essential amino acids you must have at the same time plus a bunch of non-essential aminos that are good to have.

If money is no problem for you, invest in a HIGH QUALITY whey protein powders and good casein powders. I don't know about the good protein powders in the USA so I hope other bro's can help you out with that. Quality protein is well digested and it tastes good.

Actually there are 8 (some will say 10) essential aminos and 20 total aa's used in the body. You can get an amino liquid or powder that contains all 20 of them; that being said, I still lean towards a high quality protein powder...