Starting on TRT or at the very least a longer cycle to try and boost levels

28y
12%bf
For the past 2-4 years i have tested in the mid 300s-low 400s. Also have a decent amount of gyno under both nips that is sensitive as hell. Had lab work from several doctors, endos and primary care and the most i have gotten is a recommendation to take OTC test boosters or being put on nolvadex 20mg daily as i am on now but to obviously no avail this has done nothing and marginally anything at best. I have been told by all doctors i am too young for them to consider putting me on TRT or any kind of anabolic. I have done around 5 cycles in the past 5+ years ago and i am guessing my problem lies somewhere in that. I need to do something though as mood has been in the dumps to say the least and i have had on and off ED. I will just end up ordering myself as doctors have been unreliable, which brings me to my questions. 1) after browsing several forums including here i have come to the conclusion that a starting dose around 100-150 a week of Test E/C should work fine as well as a dose of HCG, if someone could shed some insight on whether or not given my situation if that would be correct. 2) i have always done IM injections in the past but i have seen a lot of research on SubQ lately and wanted some opinions on that. 3) if SubQ is the way to go do i need to find a special oil blend or is it all the same across the board. I ask because i have always used 23-25G in the past IM and i know any smaller made it a pain to inject. I know this is a long post but any and all insight/suggestions is much appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesthetix01

28y
12%bf
For the past 2-4 years i have tested in the mid 300s-low 400s. Also have a decent amount of gyno under both nips that is sensitive as hell. Had lab work from several doctors, endos and primary care and the most i have gotten is a recommendation to take OTC test boosters or being put on nolvadex 20mg daily as i am on now but to obviously no avail this has done nothing and marginally anything at best. I have been told by all doctors i am too young for them to consider putting me on TRT or any kind of anabolic. I have done around 5 cycles in the past 5+ years ago and i am guessing my problem lies somewhere in that. I need to do something though as mood has been in the dumps to say the least and i have had on and off ED. I will just end up ordering myself as doctors have been unreliable, which brings me to my questions. 1) after browsing several forums including here i have come to the conclusion that a starting dose around 100-150 a week of Test E/C should work fine as well as a dose of HCG, if someone could shed some insight on whether or not given my situation if that would be correct. 2) i have always done IM injections in the past but i have seen a lot of research on SubQ lately and wanted some opinions on that. 3) if SubQ is the way to go do i need to find a special oil blend or is it all the same across the board. I ask because i have always used 23-25G in the past IM and i know any smaller made it a pain to inject. I know this is a long post but any and all insight/suggestions is much appreciated.

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Lots to unpack here...

Will you feel good on trt, self prescribed or otherwise? Almost certainly yes, especially with the doses you are thinking about.

Masteron will help with gyno. It has the double impact of lowering estrogen, to prevent more gyno from occurring. Only consider this if you are going with test as well.

DHT cream used to be a treatment for gyno, elevated DHT levels can be effective in this regard as well. This is another reason mast is a good fit. No, it may NOT show up as DHT, but it will lower your SHBG, which binds preferentially to DHT. Thus, your DHT elevates.

To add...

Subq vs IM is a matter of absorption times. Some compounds would be better IM, like high concentration gear, but the net of it is absorption time. IM faster, subq slower.

I have done both 250mg test and 200mg masteron in GSO subq with success, as well as 200mg test c in cottonseed oil. All worked fine. Cottonseed was US pharma, GSO were both PharmaCom.

I use 27g 1/2" insulin pins to draw and inject, though I do backfill for the fresh needle.

I appreciate the insight especially when coming from personal experience. I will definitely look into mast, in your opinion should I also stick with the nolva script or come off that if I go with test and mast. Ultimately that's the goal to just feel at least normal again, I go to the gym 6 days a week but every single time it's a mental battle to keep motivation to stay and I've never had that problem in the past ,so hopefully this will help. As far as pharmacom I've heard lots of great reviews but I've never used and have no idea where to go. I have used naps both geneza and dragon but that was several years ago not sure if they are still good, and then I've used a few domestics I found through a website that starts with eroi...I know I'm not supposed to ask for sources so do you know if anything from naps is still legit. Again appreciate the reply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesthetix01

I appreciate the insight especially when coming from personal experience. I will definitely look into mast, in your opinion should I also stick with the nolva script or come off that if I go with test and mast. Ultimately that's the goal to just feel at least normal again, I go to the gym 6 days a week but every single time it's a mental battle to keep motivation to stay and I've never had that problem in the past ,so hopefully this will help. As far as pharmacom I've heard lots of great reviews but I've never used and have no idea where to go. I have used naps both geneza and dragon but that was several years ago not sure if they are still good, and then I've used a few domestics I found through a website that starts with eroi...I know I'm not supposed to ask for sources so do you know if anything from naps is still legit. Again appreciate the reply.

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I have never ordered from naps but believe them to be legit.

There is a recent thread where someone ordered from some dude on Facebook.... that wasn't a smart move, but that thread does have some good info in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesthetix01

I appreciate the insight especially when coming from personal experience. I will definitely look into mast, in your opinion should I also stick with the nolva script or come off that if I go with test and mast. Ultimately that's the goal to just feel at least normal again, I go to the gym 6 days a week but every single time it's a mental battle to keep motivation to stay and I've never had that problem in the past ,so hopefully this will help. As far as pharmacom I've heard lots of great reviews but I've never used and have no idea where to go. I have used naps both geneza and dragon but that was several years ago not sure if they are still good, and then I've used a few domestics I found through a website that starts with eroi...I know I'm not supposed to ask for sources so do you know if anything from naps is still legit. Again appreciate the reply.

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Nolvadex you can keep but maybe bring it down to 10mg per day.

Test at 2 parts to mast at one part would be a good place to start. This also is covered in a recent thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesthetix01

28y
12%bf
For the past 2-4 years i have tested in the mid 300s-low 400s. Also have a decent amount of gyno under both nips that is sensitive as hell. Had lab work from several doctors, endos and primary care and the most i have gotten is a recommendation to take OTC test boosters or being put on nolvadex 20mg daily as i am on now but to obviously no avail this has done nothing and marginally anything at best. I have been told by all doctors i am too young for them to consider putting me on TRT or any kind of anabolic. I have done around 5 cycles in the past 5+ years ago and i am guessing my problem lies somewhere in that. I need to do something though as mood has been in the dumps to say the least and i have had on and off ED. I will just end up ordering myself as doctors have been unreliable, which brings me to my questions. 1) after browsing several forums including here i have come to the conclusion that a starting dose around 100-150 a week of Test E/C should work fine as well as a dose of HCG, if someone could shed some insight on whether or not given my situation if that would be correct. 2) i have always done IM injections in the past but i have seen a lot of research on SubQ lately and wanted some opinions on that. 3) if SubQ is the way to go do i need to find a special oil blend or is it all the same across the board. I ask because i have always used 23-25G in the past IM and i know any smaller made it a pain to inject. I know this is a long post but any and all insight/suggestions is much appreciated.

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Honestly, I don't recommend treating yourself. And further more, if every doctor who examines you still refuses to put you on TRT, do you think maybe you shouldn't be on it? If it's one doctor, that's a matter of opinion, if it's a consensus of multiple professionals, that's something different? Nobody on a message forum is going to examine you. We're not running bloodwork on you.

From what you're saying is doctors don't want to put you on TRT because of your age. They may have some very good reasoning for that. Steroids do affect your cholesterol profile. They affect your RBC. If you plan to have kids, you can pretty well kiss that goodbye if you're on TRT. They're looking out for your long term health which is more important than you putting a little muscle on or pitching a tent.

What I suggest you do is continue going to TRT clinics and seeking medical opinions and maybe you'll find a good clinic or doctor that thinks after examining you that you're a good candidate for TRT. I don't suggest you treating yourself. That's a bad idea.

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Originally Posted by Cylon357

Lots to unpack here...

Will you feel good on trt, self prescribed or otherwise? Almost certainly yes, especially with the doses you are thinking about.

Masteron will help with gyno. It has the double impact of lowering estrogen, to prevent more gyno from occurring. Only consider this if you are going with test as well.

DHT cream used to be a treatment for gyno, elevated DHT levels can be effective in this regard as well. This is another reason mast is a good fit. No, it may show up as DHT, but it will lower your SHBG, which binds preferentially to DHT. Thus, your DHT elevates.

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Masteron can help with the gyno and estrogenic sides. That might be fine for a cycle, but it's not a good solution for a long-term treatment. If we're going to use a DHT treatment, probably proviron would be better, but again that's not a long-term solution. I would probably look more in to WHY he's having gyno and treat that. Maybe a SERM would make more sense? That also does have its own risks though. It's something he needs to address with a physician.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesthetix01

28y
12%bf
For the past 2-4 years i have tested in the mid 300s-low 400s. Also have a decent amount of gyno under both nips that is sensitive as hell. Had lab work from several doctors, endos and primary care and the most i have gotten is a recommendation to take OTC test boosters or being put on nolvadex 20mg daily as i am on now but to obviously no avail this has done nothing and marginally anything at best. I have been told by all doctors i am too young for them to consider putting me on TRT or any kind of anabolic. I have done around 5 cycles in the past 5+ years ago and i am guessing my problem lies somewhere in that. I need to do something though as mood has been in the dumps to say the least and i have had on and off ED. I will just end up ordering myself as doctors have been unreliable, which brings me to my questions. 1) after browsing several forums including here i have come to the conclusion that a starting dose around 100-150 a week of Test E/C should work fine as well as a dose of HCG, if someone could shed some insight on whether or not given my situation if that would be correct. 2) i have always done IM injections in the past but i have seen a lot of research on SubQ lately and wanted some opinions on that. 3) if SubQ is the way to go do i need to find a special oil blend or is it all the same across the board. I ask because i have always used 23-25G in the past IM and i know any smaller made it a pain to inject. I know this is a long post but any and all insight/suggestions is much appreciated.

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The first thing I would do is STOP trying to self-medicate your way through this. You are a relatively young man that needs first and foremost to stabilize your situation; playing guesswork and trial and error with your health is a horrible idea. Make it a #1 priority to find a knowledgeable medical doctor (endocrinologist/urologist) to run the bloods and get you on a sound TRT program (no, you are not too young) and to fix the gyno issue. Once stable (a year or so) you can consider gear. But get yourself straight first.

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Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong

Masteron can help with the gyno and estrogenic sides. That might be fine for a cycle, but it's not a good solution for a long-term treatment. If we're going to use a DHT treatment, probably proviron would be better, but again that's not a long-term solution. I would probably look more in to WHY he's having gyno and treat that. Maybe a SERM would make more sense? That also does have its own risks though. It's something he needs to address with a physician.

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You make some good points, let me explain a little about where I'm coming from with my recommends.

You are correct, mast is probably not a true long term solution, but it would not have to be. Therapeutic doses of masteron for breast cancer treatment in women are (were) around 300mg per week for 12 weeks, then re-evaluate. A man without breast cancer would almost certainly not need that much to reduce / eliminate gyno. Boom, problem solved. Well, OK solved for now... nothing short of surgery will eliminate the possibility of recurrence. But, mast can provide "enough solving" to not be a concern. So what if there is a fraction of a bb sized lump remaining?

In other words, 100'ish mg of Mast per week, with a TRT level of test, would be a good place to start knocking out that gyno, IMO. Keep an eye on blood work, donate blood on the regular, and reevaluate in that same 12 week time frame.

It beats surgery... or does it? I personally try to avoid surgery because it ain't fun, but if OP has the money and doesn't mind being out of the gym for up to a couple of months, then that is the only way to be sure.

Based on my experimentation, I don't think nolvadex is as good at resolving gyno... not that it isn't effective, it just takes longer and really only acts in one manner in this regard: it binds to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue. Masteron has the triple impact of binding to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue AND lowering estrogen (at least according to my blood work) AND increasing DHT via reduction of SHBG. High DHT and reduced estrogen spells D E A T H for gyno.

There are several members, myself included, that pretty much run proviron year round. I run 25mg per day in two doses, with no impact on lipids. This is regardless of whether on SERM or injection based TRT. I know, 25mg doesn't do much... We hear that a lot with low doses. You don't always have to feel a drug for it to be working, and dosing is a matter of individual response.

Thanks for taking the time, HK, it helps to generate discussion!

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Originally Posted by Zenpump

The first thing I would do is STOP trying to self-medicate your way through this. You are a relatively young man that needs first and foremost to stabilize your situation; playing guesswork and trial and error with your health is a horrible idea. Make it a #1 priority to find a knowledgeable medical doctor (endocrinologist/urologist) to run the bloods and get you on a sound TRT program (no, you are not too young) and to fix the gyno issue. Once stable (a year or so) you can consider gear. But get yourself straight first.

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These are not awful points.

Self medicating leads people to do dumb things like "I ran 50mg of dianabol solo for 8 weeks why do I feel like a little depressed girl now?" and "I injected 500mg of bath tub brew tren and can see little bugs floating in it did I screw up??"

Those two dumba** questions brought to you by "spending too much time on Reddit". OK, those are made up, but sometimes they aren't far off.

Point being that self medicating can be a bad plan.

BUT

Seeking the advice of knowledgeable members provides the foundation of a good plan, dare I say a Very Good Plan. Finding a good doc can be like finding a needle in a hay stack... Most docs simply don't know enough about these types of issues to be of assistance. The VAST majority don't. But, it does make sense to explore all the options, which I gather is what OP is doing.

I mean, the best advice the OP has received thus far from the medical community has been nolvadex and OTC test boosters. Good call on the first one, but WTF on that second one?

BTW, OP, you are 100% sure that this is actually gyno, and not just normal hormonal fluctuations? Like, this is one place where a doc should be able to make the call, or order an ultrasound to confirm.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cylon357

You make some good points, let me explain a little about where I'm coming from with my recommends.

You are correct, mast is probably not a true long term solution, but it would not have to be. Therapeutic doses of masteron for breast cancer treatment in women are (were) around 300mg per week for 12 weeks, then re-evaluate. A man without breast cancer would almost certainly not need that much to reduce / eliminate gyno. Boom, problem solved. Well, OK solved for now... nothing short of surgery will eliminate the possibility of recurrence. But, mast can provide "enough solving" to not be a concern. So what if there is a fraction of a bb sized lump remaining?

In other words, 100'ish mg of Mast per week, with a TRT level of test, would be a good place to start knocking out that gyno, IMO. Keep an eye on blood work, donate blood on the regular, and reevaluate in that same 12 week time frame.

It beats surgery... or does it? I personally try to avoid surgery because it ain't fun, but if OP has the money and doesn't mind being out of the gym for up to a couple of months, then that is the only way to be sure.

Based on my experimentation, I don't think nolvadex is as good at resolving gyno... not that it isn't effective, it just takes longer and really only acts in one manner in this regard: it binds to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue. Masteron has the triple impact of binding to the estrogen receptors in breast tissue AND lowering estrogen (at least according to my blood work) AND increasing DHT via reduction of SHBG. High DHT and reduced estrogen spells D E A T H for gyno.

There are several members, myself included, that pretty much run proviron year round. I run 25mg per day in two doses, with no impact on lipids. This is regardless of whether on SERM or injection based TRT. I know, 25mg doesn't do much... We hear that a lot with low doses. You don't always have to feel a drug for it to be working, and dosing is a matter of individual response.

Thanks for taking the time, HK, it helps to generate discussion!

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If I was going to bet money, I'd be betting the OP isn't at 12% bodyfat. Likely those moobs he's got are mostly fat tissue. But I'm just supposing this, so that's just my off-the-hook guess.

The reason why I say use a SERM (possibly nolvadex), is because they're regularly used long term in women with breast cancer. I say they pose their own risks, because you definitely increase your odds of having something like a stroke from one (in addition to other sides). I would also suspect maybe he has something like a prolactinoma (which could bring up a lot of the same issues).

But really if he's got a natural total test in the 300-400 range, estrogenic sides are probably not his issue. And really 100-150mg of test divided in 2-3 shots per week really shouldn't be an issue though. Really though, he needs to have some more comprehensive bloods drawn

Heck, at least he had a Dr recommend nova. When I brought up using it for my gyno to my former pcp, she frowned and basically said we don't do that here. Said I had two choices. Surgery for the gyno, or stop trt and hope it goes away.

Fair points. I'm just saying from my experience, his situation is similar to trying to mix yellow and blue paint to get green. You don't get the "right" green that you want so you add a little more red. This doesnt work so try a little yellow. Too light so lets darken it with a small amount of black...etc. what you end up with is shit gray. My point is once it goes bad, you are better off starting over if for no other reason your health.

Op what's your free T and range?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aesthetix01

28y
12%bf
For the past 2-4 years i have tested in the mid 300s-low 400s. Also have a decent amount of gyno under both nips that is sensitive as hell. Had lab work from several doctors, endos and primary care and the most i have gotten is a recommendation to take OTC test boosters or being put on nolvadex 20mg daily as i am on now but to obviously no avail this has done nothing and marginally anything at best. I have been told by all doctors i am too young for them to consider putting me on TRT or any kind of anabolic. I have done around 5 cycles in the past 5+ years ago and i am guessing my problem lies somewhere in that. I need to do something though as mood has been in the dumps to say the least and i have had on and off ED. I will just end up ordering myself as doctors have been unreliable, which brings me to my questions. 1) after browsing several forums including here i have come to the conclusion that a starting dose around 100-150 a week of Test E/C should work fine as well as a dose of HCG, if someone could shed some insight on whether or not given my situation if that would be correct. 2) i have always done IM injections in the past but i have seen a lot of research on SubQ lately and wanted some opinions on that. 3) if SubQ is the way to go do i need to find a special oil blend or is it all the same across the board. I ask because i have always used 23-25G in the past IM and i know any smaller made it a pain to inject. I know this is a long post but any and all insight/suggestions is much appreciated.

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typically, general practice doctors will be hesitant to prescribe TRT, but going to a TRT clinic is much more likely to get you a prescription. I would highly recommend going that route as it is guaranteed that you will always get your prescription, and the quality and sterility are going to be on point.

TRT also goes hand in hand with cycling. from my personal experience, cycling gear then coming off completely is not very effective for long term growth, being on TRT and throwing in shorter blast cycles will allow you to keep your gains and continue to grow.

i know that some guys on here will disagree with this, but if given the choice i would have gone on TRT at 20, and started blasting gear after this.

also, regarding your question about SQ vs IM injections, i dont believe you need special oils for this, my TRT doctor has me on some test cyp in grapeseed oil, and this also works for IM injections.

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Originally Posted by teedoff

Heck, at least he had a Dr recommend nova. When I brought up using it for my gyno to my former pcp, she frowned and basically said we don't do that here. Said I had two choices. Surgery for the gyno, or stop trt and hope it goes away.

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nolva will work to treat gyno, but raloxifene is supposedly more effective.