TRT question

[thelazygent]

Hi guys,

I have done a couple of blast Testosterone cycles, but mainly have done self TRT for 8 years.

I want to get Test prescribed legally and under a Docs supervision.

Was off TRT for about a month (with no PCT) and got my blood work done at my general doctor.

Test came back 179 on a scale of 250 - 827. Free test was not taken

I then went to a more specialized doctor and she said I need to get two more blood works done.

Test #2 came back - 213 on a 264-916 scale with free test below range.
Test #3 came back - 350 on a 264-916 scale with free test below range.

The specialized doctor message me saying that me testosterone was low. But she referred me to another colleague of hers who deals with TRT more. I took an injection of 150 mg of Test E on 4/26 and 120 mg inj of 5/4 since I knew I was going to get Test prescribed.

Then the doctor said I would have to go to a more specialized doctor (i fucking hate doctors) because he cant prescrib HCG. The new docotor needs to do another test for LSH, LH, and Free/Total Testosterone.

I have the blood work script and obviously I am going to wait as long as I can to do it.

1. I don't want my blood work to show higher Testosterone so when do you think it would be a good time to get the blood work done?
2. Was the 150 mg and 120mg not that much a injection where I would have a big effect? I know Test E half life is 4.5 days.
3. If I get really drunk the night before my blood work, will that lower my testosterone?

[Mooseman33]

so you are 23 and have been doing self trt for 8 years?

you are full of shit man.

[thelazygent]

??? who the hell said I was 23?

Im 34

[Zenpump]

First of all, for a doctor to prescribe TRT almost always only requires two tests, the second one only for confirming the results of the first. Not sure why these doctors are testing the shit out of you other than they probably suspect you are "playing" the system. You obviously have a real need though with those numbers. TBH I would find a new doctor and start over. Most urologists are schooled in and OK with prescribing testosterone these days. My doctor takes bloods every 6 months and leaves me alone as long as the bloods are fine (8 years running and they are always fine). These doctors you are dealing with are going to be a constant pain in the ass.

Please understand though that TRT is not something you go on and off of...it's meant to be permanent.

[Honkey_Kong]

.... ...

[Cylon357]

It is possible OP was 23 when he signed up 11 years ago. According to my profile, I'm still 50... I wish

[Honkey_Kong]

It is possible OP was 23 when he signed up 11 years ago. According to my profile, I'm still 50... I wish

I just noticed that so I fixed my post.

[Mooseman33]

so you are 23 and have been doing self trt for 8 years?

you are full of shit man.

to much medical marijuana. did not see that. my apologies OP.

[thelazygent]

First of all, for a doctor to prescribe TRT almost always only requires two tests, the second one only for confirming the results of the first. Not sure why these doctors are testing the shit out of you other than they probably suspect you are "playing" the system. You obviously have a real need though with those numbers. TBH I would find a new doctor and start over. Most urologists are schooled in and OK with prescribing testosterone these days. My doctor takes bloods every 6 months and leaves me alone as long as the bloods are fine (8 years running and they are always fine). These doctors you are dealing with are going to be a constant pain in the ass.

Please understand though that TRT is not something you go on and off of...it's meant to be permanent.

They do not suspect that I am playing the system. This is what happened. The first test was from my general doctor as a psychical. Then I went to a doctor with TRT doctor experience, but she told me I need to have the blood test done from 8 -10 am (my 1st test was done at 11 am). She wrote me a script for 2 blood tests. She then said she was going to have her colleague take over as he deals with TRT more than her. I did the blood tests. He then saw my blood work but the FSH was missing from the blood work so he wants another test done. He said he cant prescribe HCG only a urologist can. I fucking hate doctors. This whole thing is a fucking shit show.


I am going to go to a urologist like you said. Going back to my original questions. Since I injected Testosterone (150 mg on 4/26 and 120 mg on 5/4):


1. I don't want my blood work to show higher Testosterone so when do you think it would be a good time to get the blood work done?
2. Was the 150 mg and 120mg not that much a injection where I would have a big effect? I know Test E half life is 4.5 days.
3. If I get really drunk the night before my blood work, will that lower my testosterone?

[thelazygent]

Apology accepted.

[teedoff]

If your last injection was 5/4 and you havent injected any testosterone since then, you should be back to your normal test production levels for your blood test. Don't do something purposefully to try to make your levels lower for the labs. lol You want to be testing your natural levels.

[thelazygent]

Doesnt Test E have a 4.5 day half life? I injected 4 days ago.

What Total Test number do you think Id be at?

[Cylon357]

Test E does have a half life of roughly 5 days (I choose to round up in situations like this), but note that is a HALF life, not a fully out of the system time span.

5 half lives is a good measure for a minimum time when something is out of your system.

I could math this out, but suffice to say that at 25 days (5 half lives), there is roughly 1/32nd of the last dose in your system. So, a 200mg injection would have about 6mg lingering.

Probably not enough to note, but there were likely other injections before that, too, so the amount will be a little higher, though not much.

Anyhow, use this basic logic to determine clearance times and remaining amounts at any given time.

[Cylon357]

Having said that, the idea of trying to game the system is, in general, a Fool's Game, IMO.

OP, I'm not calling you a fool, just saying that in general, this is a bad plan. I will explain why, but you aren't the first to come up with this scheme.

So, you want the insurance company to pay for your test? Neat! I totally agree that they should... after all, isn't that one of the benefits to being part of the club?

Here is the snag: insurance companies are FOR PROFIT, and one of the ways they keep profits UP is by, you guessed it: not paying for things!

What they do, and it is really just a matter of patience, is force you to demonstrate that you actually have the condition they are paying for. In the most extreme case for TRT, that will typically mean 2 or even 3 low testosterone results, usually about a month apart. If you get those results, then OK, you win the prize: they will give you the special pricing on test!

I have (had) pretty good prescription benefits and my 10ml test is about $16. Costco has it right off the shelf at $65.79. With my dose (and likely the dose the insurance company will be cool with it), that's about a 90 day supply.

So, you jump through all those hoops just to save about 17 dollars a month. Remember you had to feel like shit for 3 months, and that assumes you were successful the first time through.

Was it worth 17 dollars a month? It might be, or maybe you just enjoy sticking it to the insurance company. I can totally get that.


Better plan, IMO, and one that I am likely going to be doing going forward is finding the right doc, and just paying out of pocket from some place like Costco. And in your case OP, you can start that RIGHT NOW, rather than having / trying to game the system.

Sometimes, the best way to win is simply not to play the game.

All this is just one man's opinion, of course, and worth exactly what you paid for it...

[teedoff]

Having said that, the idea of trying to game the system is, in general, a Fool's Game, IMO.

OP, I'm not calling you a fool, just saying that in general, this is a bad plan. I will explain why, but you aren't the first to come up with this scheme.

So, you want the insurance company to pay for your test? Neat! I totally agree that they should... after all, isn't that one of the benefits to being part of the club?

Here is the snag: insurance companies are FOR PROFIT, and one of the ways they keep profits down is by, you guessed it: not paying for things!

What they do, and it is really just a matter of patience, is force you to demonstrate that you actually have the condition they are paying for. In the most extreme case for TRT, that will typically mean 2 or even 3 low testosterone results, usually about a month apart. If you get those results, then OK, you win the prize: they will give you the special pricing on test!

I have (had) pretty good prescription benefits and my 10ml test is about $16. Costco has it right off the shelf at $65.79. With my dose (and likely the dose the insurance company will be cool with it), that's about a 90 day supply.

So, you jump through all those hoops just to save about 17 dollars a month. Remember you had to feel like shit for 3 months, and that assumes you were successful the first time through.

Was it worth 17 dollars a month? It might be, or maybe you just enjoy sticking it to the insurance company. I can totally get that.


Better plan, IMO, and one that I am likely going to be doing going forward is finding the right doc, and just paying out of pocket from some place like Costco. And in your case OP, you can start that RIGHT NOW, rather than having / trying to game the system.

Sometimes, the best way to win is simply not to play the game.

All this is just one man's opinion, of course, and worth exactly what you paid for it...

Ah very good points you make. I've yet to use insurance for my injectable test. I think my 10 week supply is around 65 as well. Its different price everytime I refill, but generally thats the ball park.

I will say though, whether you use your insurance or not, having a legal script for trt is a good thing. But do it the right way. Get true test level readings and yeah, jump through the hoops if needed.

[Cylon357]

Ah very good points you make. I've yet to use insurance for my injectable test. I think my 10 week supply is around 65 as well. Its different price everytime I refill, but generally thats the ball park.

I will say though, whether you use your insurance or not, having a legal script for trt is a good thing. But do it the right way. Get true test level readings and yeah, jump through the hoops if needed.

Definitely get a legit prescription if you can, even if the doc you use initially is a quack. That makes it easier to switch docs and just be like, yeah, I've been on prescribed TRT for a year and feel good.

I have moved away from using insurance for trt, personally. I started injections with UGL, but legitimized with my doc. That was mostly to get the legit script like you describe.

Mind you, if the doc or insurance company ever saw my stash, their eyes would bug right out of their head...

[David LoPan]

I started TRT about your age due to hypogonadism and I can say it is a pain in the ass now vs when I was in my 30s. I would say after having to take injections for over 20 years, try to delay this as long as possible. That check engine light starts going off at age 50. I really look at TRT differently than I did at 30-something.

Have you really looked hard at trying everything you can to avoid having to go on TRT like doing a full PCT to see if your levels will increase on their own? You have a stash so have you tried to avoid a cycle and let your body really recover?

There are ways to crash your T levels and you can find them on here with a search. But I would suggest that you try your best to avoid going on TRT for as long as possible.

[kelkel]

Mind you, if the doc or insurance company ever saw my stash, their eyes would bug right out of their head...

Same here. If my house ever caught on fire my stash is one of the first things I'd be grabbing. Not "the" first, but right up there.

[teedoff]

Same here. If my house ever caught on fire my stash is one of the first things I'd be grabbing. Not "the" first, but right up there.

I'm single, kids grown so stash, guns, and dog. Top three. Lol

[maxbiggerstaff]

$65.79 out of pocket with no insurance? If so, for three months that's not bad at all.

[Cylon357]

$65.79 out of pocket with no insurance? If so, for three months that's not bad at all.

Yep, you can look up prices on Costcos website. Seems like you can on Sam's, too, but maybe not for test.

I trust what Costco posts on their site more than I do like goodrx. Sometimes pharmacies don't honor the goodrx price, but Costco has no middle man there.

[wango]

I would say after having to take injections for over 20 years, try to delay this as long as possible. That check engine light starts going off at age 50. I really look at TRT differently than I did at 30-something.

Just curious, but could you clarify?

BTW; I hope that you found some more green eyed girls. That last pair was pretty hot.

[almostgone]

It is possible OP was 23 when he signed up 11 years ago. According to my profile, I'm still 50... I wish

I think I was 42 or a tad younger, so yeah... I'd like to have those miles back.

I just noticed that so I fixed my post.

to much medical marijuana. did not see that. my apologies OP.

H_K, Moose, Cy.... We appreciate you guys.

[Honkey_Kong]

$65.79 out of pocket with no insurance? If so, for three months that's not bad at all.

You can also get discount coupons by going on GoodRx.

[Zenpump]

Why not switch to gel? Much easier, very effective and covered by insurance.

[teedoff]

Why not switch to gel? Much easier, very effective and covered by insurance.

In my experience the gel is not as effective. I was on it for 2 years. Cream is better I think. Some here use the cream

[kelkel]

Why not switch to gel? Much easier, very effective and covered by insurance.

Many people find that gel's effectiveness seems to wane after a while and you end up pasting more and more on.
It's definitely a huge money maker for big pharma though while injectable test really isn't.

[Cylon357]

In my experience the gel is not as effective. I was on it for 2 years. Cream is better I think. Some here use the cream

Gel is simply too low a dose to be effective. I think it caps out at max 2.5%. You end up slathering yourself daily to get barely mediocre numbers. Gel dries slower than cream and is sticky for longer.

Compounded cream eliminates gels two big weaknesses. It can be compounded up to 20%, thus giving you up to 8x the dose per volume. Further, it goes on easy and dries fast.

Some "drawbacks" to both...

They should be applied 2x per day. This is esterless testosterone, so the half life is about 3 hours, given absorption rates, etc. With the gel, that could be a hassle, but with cream it is not.

In addition, topicals 5 alpha reduce at roughly 2.5x more than injections. If you need the DHT, this is how you get it. If you don't, you should avoid topicals.

Source: I used the cream for about 3 months, I think, before switching to injections. AMA!

[thelazygent]

I want to be clear. I am not trying to game the system. I want to be under a docs supervision so that I do consistent blood work while on TRT and get HCG. My blood work has been out of whack and I have to drive to PA bc NJ doesn't accept those personal blood scripts that you can purchase on the internet. I want HCG so that I stay fertile for when I want to have kids.

I do not care about having to be on this for life. As I stated before, I have been on self TRT for 10 years. I dont not care about having to inject for life.
I do not care about cost. I can simply get the script and if the Test is too expensive, I can get it the way I have for the past 10 years.

I was asking about how I should proceed considering I injected on 4/26 and 5/4 with another blood test coming up.

This thread got hijacked a bit.

[Cylon357]

They do not suspect that I am playing the system.

<snip>

1. I don't want my blood work to show higher Testosterone so when do you think it would be a good time to get the blood work done?
2. Was the 150 mg and 120mg not that much a injection where I would have a big effect? I know Test E half life is 4.5 days.
3. If I get really drunk the night before my blood work, will that lower my testosterone?

I want to be clear. I am not trying to game the system.

I want to be under a docs supervision so that I do consistent blood work while on TRT and get HCG.

This thread got hijacked a bit.

The thread may have gotten hijacked, but you are, by your own words, trying to play the system. You even say it in your own words, quoted above.

Your third bullet point, mentioned in your original post, is unequivocally trying to game the system.

No one here is judging you for it. Get what you can!

That said, all the info you need to answer your questions is in this thread, particularly the bit about half lives and the 5 half life measure.

Drinking the night before would probably not get you the result you want.

If you want to be under a docs care and don't care about cost, get with a clinic.

[thelazygent]

The thread may have gotten hijacked, but you are, by your own words, trying to play the system. You even say it in your own words, quoted above.

Your third bullet point, mentioned in your original post, is unequivocally trying to game the system.

No one here is judging you for it. Get what you can!

That said, all the info you need to answer your questions is in this thread, particularly the bit about half lives and the 5 half life measure.

Drinking the night before would probably not get you the result you want.

If you want to be under a docs care and don't care about cost, get with a clinic.

I was asked a question by Zenpump if the doctor thought I was playing the system. He assumed I was playing the system but I am not. I answered that I do not think the doctor thinks I am playing the system. But I was never playing the system to begin with but its understandable why a doctor might assume I am playing the system and understandable why Zenpump would ask.

I impatiently took 2 injections after my final blood test bc I thought that would be it for the blood tests (but it wasn't). I didn't want to wait for the 4 week wait time it takes to get an appointment. I am looking for ways to lower my Test so the doctor cant tell me my test is too high and not prescribe me. Once I got my script, I would have injected under his direction.

[Zenpump]

Gel is simply too low a dose to be effective. I think it caps out at max 2.5%. You end up slathering yourself daily to get barely mediocre numbers. Gel dries slower than cream and is sticky for longer.

Compounded cream eliminates gels two big weaknesses. It can be compounded up to 20%, thus giving you up to 8x the dose per volume. Further, it goes on easy and dries fast.

Some "drawbacks" to both...

They should be applied 2x per day. This is esterless testosterone, so the half life is about 3 hours, given absorption rates, etc. With the gel, that could be a hassle, but with cream it is not.

In addition, topicals 5 alpha reduce at roughly 2.5x more than injections. If you need the DHT, this is how you get it. If you don't, you should avoid topicals.

Source: I used the cream for about 3 months, I think, before switching to injections. AMA!

With respect to all, I disagree. I have had GREAT results with gels and can take my T to whatever level I want to with it. You don't need to pin it to get results - its the SAME testosterone! Repeat: It's the SAME testosterone. Eight years running and I have never had a problem with any of my bloodwork (at all) and it has never "waned". And who cares if pharma makes money on it? Just saying, it shouldn't be discounted just because it's not being injected. Personally, I think it's a great BASE even for those using injectable AAS. And it's daily so no peaks/troughs.

[Cylon357]

3. If I get really drunk the night before my blood work, will that lower my testosterone?

^^^That right there is playing the system, or at least trying to.

Your best bet is a clinic in the short-term, then you can switch to a primary care doc. That's what it sounds like you should do anyhow.

[Cylon357]

With respect to all, I disagree. I have had GREAT results with gels and can take my T to whatever level I want to with it. You don't need to pin it to get results - its the SAME testosterone! Repeat: It's the SAME testosterone. Eight years running and I have never had a problem with any of my bloodwork (at all) and it has never "waned". And who cares if pharma makes money on it? Just saying, it shouldn't be discounted just because it's not being injected. Personally, I think it's a great BASE even for those using injectable AAS. And it's daily so no peaks/troughs.

You can disagree, if you like, though I believe that you would be the outlier on effectiveness with gel. It can work for some men, apparently.

I'm not sure what you mean by repeating "it's the SAME testosterone". I didn't see anyone say it isn't. If you mean it's attached to the cypionate Ester, or any Ester, please post evidence of that.

[teedoff]

With respect to all, I disagree. I have had GREAT results with gels and can take my T to whatever level I want to with it. You don't need to pin it to get results - its the SAME testosterone! Repeat: It's the SAME testosterone. Eight years running and I have never had a problem with any of my bloodwork (at all) and it has never "waned". And who cares if pharma makes money on it? Just saying, it shouldn't be discounted just because it's not being injected. Personally, I think it's a great BASE even for those using injectable AAS. And it's daily so no peaks/troughs.

I can tell you what I experienced. Gel for 2 years at one pump a day. Had blood work done by a urologist and my test was around 300. He suggested I double the dose to two pumps or switch to injections. I did two pumps a day for a month or so before going to a hormone clinic and switching to injections.

[Zenpump]

I can tell you what I experienced. Gel for 2 years at one pump a day. Had blood work done by a urologist and my test was around 300. He suggested I double the dose to two pumps or switch to injections. I did two pumps a day for a month or so before going to a hormone clinic and switching to injections.

This is a prime example of misuse/understanding! 1 pump per day? Thats definitely not enough! If 1 pump got you to 300, then 2 would have put you 450-500 ( guestimating). 3 pumps would have been 650-800 (guestimating) and 4 pumps over 1000 (its not linear).

Why did you not get tested after migrating to 2 pumps when a single pump put you at the low end of normal?

The gel makers themselves suggest up to 4 pumps daily.

[Zenpump]

My point is your T levels ( as a base) are your T levels, whether its injected or rubbed on your skin. I think to some extent we are talking past each other. The point isn't to get JACKED on your TRT. Never has been. TRT by definition involved re-installing "normal" levels of T in those deficient. Anything above "normal" (high end is debateable but somewhere around 1000) is not TRT - it's a steroid cycle.

I am not suggesting you use gels for your steroid cycle! I am suggesting, depending on your goals, that gels are very effective for TRT (hell millions of men on using them). Are you going to win the Olympia on gels? Of course not. But I would suggest that TRT in general and gels in particular are a great way to form a T BASE for cycles. They are doctor prescribed (including ongoing blood work), insurance covered, low to no side effects (I have had 0 in 8 years with a T level above 700), easy to use (put on in the morning after shower like deoderant), easy to travel, etc. And they WORK for what they are meant for....TRT. And your T levels are upped DAILY and are YEAR ROUND so no PCT needed.

[teedoff]

This is a prime example of misuse/understanding! 1 pump per day? Thats definitely not enough! If 1 pump got you to 300, then 2 would have put you 450-500 ( guestimating). 3 pumps would have been 650-800 (guestimating) and 4 pumps over 1000 (its not linear).

Why did you not get tested after migrating to 2 pumps when a single pump put you at the low end of normal?

The gel makers themselves suggest up to 4 pumps daily.

Not enough according to whom? Thats what my Dr prescribed. One pump a day...worked fine for almost 2 years until it didnt work any longer. One pump got me to around 700. Have all my labs from the last 4 years to prove it. Then for some reason, the labs I had done at my urologist, my test was 300 again. Perhaps it was drawn on different days, but he's the one that suggested I do 2 pumps which I did for about 2 months before just switching to injections.

Just got labs done 2 weeks ago on Friday morning. My injections are on Saturday or Sunday as I forget sometimes. This lab my test was 800+ on 100mg/week.

[Honkey_Kong]

This is a prime example of misuse/understanding! 1 pump per day? Thats definitely not enough! If 1 pump got you to 300, then 2 would have put you 450-500 ( guestimating). 3 pumps would have been 650-800 (guestimating) and 4 pumps over 1000 (its not linear).

Why did you not get tested after migrating to 2 pumps when a single pump put you at the low end of normal?

The gel makers themselves suggest up to 4 pumps daily.

Some guys have skin that better absorbs the testosterone than others. And over time the absorption rate can change for some people as their skin conditions can change. My real gripe with the gels and cream are that you have to be careful about making physical contact with your wife/girlfriend before they totally gel. Plus if you have young kids that's another factor.

That and injecting is one or two times a week (depending on your protocol) and then you don't have to worry about it at all.

[Zenpump]

Not enough according to whom? Thats what my Dr prescribed. One pump a day...worked fine for almost 2 years until it didnt work any longer. One pump got me to around 700. Have all my labs from the last 4 years to prove it. Then for some reason, the labs I had done at my urologist, my test was 300 again. Perhaps it was drawn on different days, but he's the one that suggested I do 2 pumps which I did for about 2 months before just switching to injections.

Just got labs done 2 weeks ago on Friday morning. My injections are on Saturday or Sunday as I forget sometimes. This lab my test was 800+ on 100mg/week.

Did you get bloods after switching to 2 pumps?

I never said injections dont work - I just said gels do and have for me for 8+ years. All respect...we should probably move on at this point!!