2nd Cycle (Test); Running Nolva; Very Different Results

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 12:29 PM

Hey all. This is my second cycle. The first was mild, 300mg test cyp/week for 9 weeks. I exploded, going from 190 to 218 lbs. All the water I was retaining made me feel and look monstrous and I was a lot stronger. Post cycle, I ran clomid and eventually settled in at 204 lbs. I was quite pleased to keep 14 pounds. However, during that first cycle, along with the water etc. came massive bloat of the midsection and puffiness in the face. Not a big deal, but the midsection bloat sux.

Now, on my second cycle (I'm 1 month in running 400 mgs test/week) (both cycles are human grade) after 1 month I'm only up 3 lbs and I don't feel like I look like I'm on. I'm also not experiencing the massive libido boost that I had on the first cycle. In fact, things have been tame. I don't understand this. My strength is up substantially, and I don't usually just gain 3 pounds in 2 weeks so I know the gear is good (and I have other reasons to know it is good).

I'm running 20 mgs of nolva throughout and this has really, really helped keep the bloat down. In fact, my midsection has started coming back under control. I'm still eating a lot of good, clean food; the same diet I utilized on my first cycle, in which I initially gained 28 lbs in 9 weeks. I am not eating quite as much though, particularly not at night, as the fat I gained on the first cycle was hard to get rid of.

Anyway, can the nolva be having an impact on the libido?

Also, would you expect I would be starting to "bust out" and gain a little more at this stage of the game with hard training and good, clean eating.

Any insight or advice is appreciated.
Thanks, GO

**WiLLpOwEr** · 09-05-2003, 12:36 PM

No, the Nolvadex should not have a negative affect on libido. Espically because you're using 400mg of test a week!! What kind of testosterone are you using? If you're using deca , the progesterone increase might have something to do with it. If not deca, you probably have fake gear! If you're not horny on 400mg of test a week(and it's not deca), than something is wrong.

***Pheedno*** · 09-05-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Gettin'Old

the same diet I utilized on my first cycle, .

This is your problem as far as I can see. When you were 190, you ate and you gained a bunch of weight. Now, your 204, you need to eat like your 220 to get to 220.

I'd increase the cals up 500.

The nolva should not have negatives on your gains.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 12:55 PM

First, thanks for the responses so far.

The test is Schering, enan I believe. I can see needing to eat more to explode but didn't really want to hog down until a few weeks had passed and the test had "kicked in" so to speak. I don't know if this is a valid strategy or not, but don't want anymore fat.

I just don't understand the lack of raging libido. But these Schering amps have checked out and I just don't get this strong on nothing. Are amps easily faked? Could there be deca in the test amps?

I previously posted the lot numbers etc and someone told me the amps checked out.

bump for more replies/input.
Thanks.

**TheMudMan** · 09-05-2003, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Pheedno

This is your problem as far as I can see. When you were 190, you ate and you gained a bunch of weight. Now, your 204, you need to eat like your 220 to get to 220.

I'd increase the cals up 500.

The nolva should not have negatives on your gains.

Diet is always the breaker on a cycle. When I made up my cycles I also changed my diets around to lean towards my goals.

Nolva isn't killing your libido either.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 12:59 PM

I can understand the diet part of the equation and, frankly, I don't mind gaining less overall poundage as long as it's leaner and I don't have gained fat to rid at the end and mid section bloat.

I'm just perplexed by the lack of libido after 1 month. On that last cycle I was walking wood almost immediately.

**TheMudMan** · 09-05-2003, 01:02 PM

Are you sure the gear is real? Unless your getting it from a script than I would always consider that as a factor as it could be fake no matter how good your source is.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 01:03 PM

Here is the excerpt from my previous post of some time ago when I was trying to authenticate the product:

___________________________________________
Now what is supposed to be Schering test cyp:

It came out of the "package" in the amps. The writing on the amps is blue. It says:

Primoteston_ Depo
250mg/ml
The lot number is 1202105
exp 12/07

I don't have it with me so that is all I can describe for now. I don't think there is too much else info though.

Please let me know if you can confirm if these are legit or not. Thanks very much.

___________________________________________

Also, I have a friend using this and he has swole up and his strength is up substantially. I haven't asked him about libido issues.

**TheMudMan** · 09-05-2003, 01:10 PM

Have you tried looking for pictures to compare yours to?

I've never ran human grade until this cycle comming up. I will not get my gear for another week. I can post pix I will be using Schering in the cycle.

**Bench-n-Squat's** · 09-05-2003, 01:16 PM

I am currently in my first week of QV test enat 500mg a week. I want to supplement in 300mg deca in my third week and run it for 5 weeks. By the way, this is a 10 week cycle. Is this ok because all of the test-deca cycles start with 1-10 test and 1-5 deca??? Any help much appreciated.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 01:22 PM

No hijacking my thread!!

I actually did look at pictures Mud and mine look exactly like the ones posted.

Does everyone get a massive libido boost off of test or has maybe my body adjusted to it somewhat from the first cycle??

**majorpecs** · 09-05-2003, 01:22 PM

EAT EAT EAT EAT....and EAT some more.......

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 01:24 PM

I'm upping the food bigtime now that I'm 4 weeks in. That's less of my concern as I believe I'm about to do some real growing on the big food plan. Like I said, I'm just perplexed about the other thing - - and my wife is hot too!!

**iron4life79** · 09-05-2003, 01:42 PM

you only upped the test 100mg from your last cycle, right?

how long were you off in between these 2 runs?

i know you said you did your pct, but you might not be fully rcovered if your running these too close together. give me a rough timeline bro.........

peace I4L

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 01:50 PM

Hey, thanks for chiming in here Iron. That is correct, I only upped the dose 100 mg/week. I'm taking 400 total mg of test/week and am 26 days in.

I was on the last cycle for 9 weeks and I took 10 or 11 weeks off. I definitely didn't short cut the time off. My testes had shrunken a bit on the last cycle but were fully restored at least 3-5 weeks before I started this second cycle, and my libido was basically average or a little below that for the time in between cycles.

Perhaps I did not 100% recover. I don't know. But even if I had not, wouldn't this 400 mg/week currently make me walking wood?

Thanks.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-05-2003, 08:09 PM

Bump

**iron4life79** · 09-06-2003, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Gettin'Old

Hey, thanks for chiming in here Iron. That is correct, I only upped the dose 100 mg/week. I'm taking 400 total mg of test/week and am 26 days in.

I was on the last cycle for 9 weeks and I took 10 or 11 weeks off. I definitely didn't short cut the time off. My testes had shrunken a bit on the last cycle but were fully restored at least 3-5 weeks before I started this second cycle, and my libido was basically average or a little below that for the time in between cycles.

Perhaps I did not 100% recover. I don't know. But even if I had not, wouldn't this 400 mg/week currently make me walking wood?

Thanks.

GO,
i thought i was on to something, but i have to admit, i was mistaken. i was looking for the source of your libido problem, and thought your timing might have had something to do with it.
that being said, everything you did looks spot on bro. your time off is perfect, and as long as your pct went ok, i think you did everything pretty much right.
i tend to lean towards the other guys opinions.....you might have some bad or at least "underdosed" gear. lets face it...........you arent gaining a lot of weight, and on cyp this is a given(provided your diet is on). your libido isnt responding, and again, on cyp(or any test for that matter) this is a given.
the only thing that stands out here is your time on.....26 days(roughly 4 weeks) is just about starting time for cypionate . give it another week or 2, along with upping the cals, and then drop me a line if your still having problems, ok?

peace I4L

**johnsomebody** · 09-06-2003, 11:29 AM

There's something no one has mentioned here that is worth considering. There's at least one good study out there that asserts that it's not just testosterone that boosts libido but testosterone AND the estrogen that it normally generates, which is what caused your bloat previously. (If you like, PM me and I can find it for you.)

On man in the study, who didn't normally produce estrogen from testosterone due to an endocrinological problem (a "non-aromatizer" I think was the term) had no increase in libido from additional test and a substantial increase when given estrogen.

I'd be willing to bet that it's the Nolva that's making the diff, not the test and that if you quit it your libido (and probably some bloat) would come back. You're right to point out that it's the biggest independent variable in this, and thus most likely the culprit. (Don't I talk fancy sometimes?) It may just not bother others to use Nolva because of the normal variability in the way people respond to estrogen.

Anyway, I hope that helps!

**Gettin'Old** · 09-07-2003, 10:53 AM

Iron & Johnsomebody: First, thanks very much. I really appreciate your responses and can tell you are actually putting some serious thought into my problem.

This test I have, apparently, is actually enan, which should have kicked in a fair bit quicker than cyp, if I understand this correctly.

I stopped taking the nolva a few days ago to see if I will notice a difference. John, that is the first I've heard mentioned of the estrogen playing a factor in libido, and in fact, was exactly the type of information I was looking for. I'll have to wait a little while and see if, as estrogen develops, the problem resolves.

To be blunt (and this is painful to do), I am having some very serious problems in the libido department, the likes of which I have never had before. In fact, I would say, I'm heavily suppressed at present. What a mindf**k!!

I'm going to keep in touch with you two on this and keep this bumped up until I get this resolved. Thanks.

**slobberknocker** · 09-07-2003, 12:16 PM

IMO, less circulating estrogen = more free testosterone , so that should actually raise the libido, but anyway...

You're eating less, and using basically the same dose, and expecting the same gains. It won't work like that. You should be eating more, and using more test, IMO.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-07-2003, 03:53 PM

As stated above Slobber, my dose is actually higher. Also, I'm far more concerned about the "libido issues" than the lack of gains. Although, I think the lack of gains are odd too.

Bump for anyone else that can help at all.

**realityarts** · 09-07-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Gettin'Old

As stated above Slobber, my dose is actually higher. Also, I'm far more concerned about the "libido issues" than the lack of gains. Although, I think the lack of gains are odd too.

Bump for anyone else that can help at all.

I'm not sure how old you are... Libido can be affected by a host of things. Do you think it could be mere coincidental (other factors) rather than the cycle? As one ages, it can come and go -- and can even just go (forbid that).

Anxiety or even worrying about performace can greatly reduce libido.

I'm probably not helping much...but felt like trying. I hope you get it resolved.

**johnsomebody** · 09-07-2003, 04:54 PM

Hey bro,
Well, for what it's worth, here's that study I mentioned ealier, which was sent to me by Ichabod several weeks ago..
"The intriguing concept that a role for estrogens exists in male reproduction has recently been recognized in the field of endocrinology..."

http://www.endotext.com/male/male17/male17.htm

CONCLUSION:
"Advances in the understanding of the role of estrogens in animal and human models suggest a role for this sex steroid in the reproductive function of both sexes."

It also points out that the response varies widely in males and that the amount of estrogen makes a difference as well.

It's pretty obtuse, if you ask me, but I thought it was interesting. Obviously, they're still trying to figure this stuff out! No wonder it's confusing!

**Gettin'Old** · 09-07-2003, 09:01 PM

Reality, I'm only 34 and have never experienced anything like this. In fact, I was highly anticipating a repeat of my first cycle, during which I was walking wood and experienced heightened sensation; a very good thing.

John, thanks much for posting that study. It is quite complex. A few conclusions seem to indicate the lack of estrogen caused by the nolvadex may in fact be the culprit. The study states:

"It is clear that the aromatization of testosterone into estradiol is required for a normal gonadotropin feedback at the pituitary level."

And

"Thus negative effects on male reproduction are the result of estrogen deprivation directly in the reproductive structures or indirectly through changes in the regulation of sex steroid secretion."

Perhaps I am one of the few individuals who is detrimentally affected by the inhibition of aromatization into estrogen. It seems odd though that this situation would not be addressed more often by more people, as use of an anti-e on cycle is hardly a rarity.

I am now 3 full days off the nolva and have yet to have any "relief" from the problem. Thanks again for the study and I'll keep you posted. If there is resolution in a day or two I'll have to assume it was the nolva.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-07-2003, 09:12 PM

AHA . . . I'm posting more from the study below. Now I'm convinced it is the effect of the nolva blocking aromatization to estrogen that is having this affect. I can't be the only one affected by taking nolva on cycle. I'd like to hear from others.

From the study:

Sexual behavior

"In mammals, adult male sexual behavior is at least partially dependent on the presence of testosterone . Androgens are also necessary for male sexual behavior during adult life (100-102). In fact, the lack of testosterone frequently produces loss of libido and erectile dysfunction (101, 102). At the same time, testosterone replacement therapy increases sexual interest and improves sexual behavior (86, 101). By contrast, the role of aromatization in the establishment and maintenance of male sexual behavior has been characterized only recently.

Congenital aromatase deficiency and estrogen action blockade result in a severe impairment of sexual behavior in rodents. ArKO mice (41) exhibit a significant reduction in mounting frequency and a significantly prolonged latency to mount when compared with heterozygous and wild-type animals (103). Also the sexual behavior of aERKO mice is characterized by a reduction of intromissions, an increase in the latency to first intromission and a lack of ejaculation, despite the presence of a normal motivation to mount females. The same sexual behavior pattern occurs in abERKO male mice (see 3, 13 for review). On the contrary, bERKO mice showed all three components of sexual behavior including ejaculation (Figure 7). These findings suggest that at least one of the ERs (ERa) is required for the expression of simple mounting behavior in male mice and, as a consequence, that activation of the androgen receptor alone is not sufficient for a fully normal sexual behavior, confirming that aromatization of androgens is also required."

And

"The role of estrogens in male sexual behavior is confirmed by studies in gonadectomized rats treated with testosterone (104). Vagell and McGinnis showed, in fact, a complete inhibition of male sexual behavior in gonadectomized rats when the aromatase inhibitor fadrozole was administered in addition to testosterone, demonstrating that this inhibition disappeared when estrogen administration was added."

And

"In order to evaluate the role of estrogens in human male sexual behavior, sexual activity has been investigated in a man with aromatase deficiency, before and during testosterone or transdermal estradiol treatment. When the patient received his physiological dose of estrogens (i.e. 25 mg transdermal estradiol twice weekly) he experienced an increase of all the parameters of sexual activity (the frequency of masturbation, sexual intercourse, erotic fantasies and libido) (Table 7, Figure 8), without change during testosterone treatment."

Wow!

**johnsomebody** · 09-07-2003, 09:24 PM

Yup, that's the guy I was referring to earlier.

**Rickson** · 09-07-2003, 10:44 PM

Nolvadex is not an estrogen Inhibitor it is a SERM that acts as an anti-e in certain receptor areas like breast tissue.

**RC_0891** · 09-07-2003, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Rickson

Nolvadex is not an estrogen Inhibitor it is a SERM that acts as an anti-e in certain receptor areas like breast tissue.

Hmm. Well I guess that kinda ruins the whole nolva causes libido loss. Unless it has something to do with where the nolva binds, but I dont have much of an Idea on this. I CAN tell you that I have been on nolvadex (Yes only nolvadex, I am trying to reduce some slight gyno) for 4 days and no loss of sexual function yet. Your problem is confusing bro, I hope it gets resolved fast. Best of luck to ya man, I know how it feels

RC

**johnsomebody** · 09-08-2003, 01:07 PM

Rickson, of course, is right about how Nolva works.

But I've read it described as an anti-estrogen so many times it raised the possiblity in my mind that it might be part of the problem so I thought it was worth mentioning. Plus what I don't understand is, if estrogen is responsible for bloat when on test, and Nolva stops it, as it has in GettinOld's case, isn't that due to reduced estrogen? And isn't it possible that Nolva may effect sites in the nervous system as well as breast tissue? It seems like the more stuff I read the more I realize how much they DON''T know about how all this works.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-08-2003, 01:19 PM

I agree with that John and would like to know too. I've been off the nolva for 4 days now and don't seem to be gaining the water and certainly no relief of the major underlying problem.

Only 2 things make any possible sense to me and they both seem like long shots:

1. The test is counterfeit and is actually deca (which I have never used but have read it can cause major libido problems particularly in the absence of test) (I don't know how easy it is to fake these amps and they look like the pictures that are posted);

2. Somehow either I'm just not responding properly to the test. Is it possible my receptors are not clean after 10 weeks off? Could my receptors have been overwhelmed by 400mgs/week - - that doesn't make sense considering the doses some are using!!??

I'm really reaching here but I'm just absolutely perplexed . . . and stressed . . and depressed.

Oh, one more thing, this is not in my head, believe me. I don't just shut down and become all nervous when I'm with my wife of many years.

**goldenear** · 09-08-2003, 01:32 PM

The best thing you could do, bro, would be to go to your doc and request a few blood tests. We can all sit here and guess til the end of time, but one thing's for sure...a few panels will get you a lot closer to finding out the truth about your specific physiological state.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-08-2003, 01:33 PM

Hmmm .. . very good point.

**Gettin'Old** · 09-08-2003, 02:33 PM

Here is a link to some pics.

Mine look exactly like these except mine have a white line around the neck of the amp, where you would break it open:

http://www.steroidology.com/forum/s...=%2Aschering%2A

Is it possible they could have been opened and resealed and still look that good? How would they get faked?

**johnsomebody** · 09-08-2003, 03:19 PM

Hey bro, for what it's worth, if I recall correctly, the half life of Clomid is five days, so it may be about the same for Nolva. It may just take time, if that's the cause.

**iron4life79** · 09-16-2003, 11:07 PM

g.o.
rickson is spot on, and he beat me to the answer i was going to post after reading your comments on the study.

if youre using nolva, the estrogen is still in your system bro, its not being aromatized in any way. its just being blocked at the receptor. this in turn shouldnt affect gains in a negative way at all, especially since there are quite a few out there who believe some estrogen in the system actually ENHANCES gains, and can most likely back it up with real world experiences and results.

i'm not disagreeing with the study conclusions, but i've never heard of nolva being a cause of libido induced problems.

peace I4L

**Gettin'Old** · 09-17-2003, 07:08 AM

I'd agree at this point that the nolva is/was not the problem. I'm not sure what it was.

On my first cycle, at 300mg/week of test, I really held a lot of water and just generally blew up. I also had very slightly tender nips. I haven't had either of those symptoms on this latest cycle at 400 mg/week and have no idea why.

I'm wondering if my receptors were not fully cleaned, or if they were, if they got "saturated" really quickly. I'm trying to figure out all the differences between the two cycles and don't have my finger on it.