Next cycle planning

**Tuggy** · 09-07-2003, 02:40 AM

I know it looks pretty basic, but I want things to be simple.

Weeks 1-4 dbol 25 mg/ed
Weeks 1-11 EQ250 /500 mg/week
Weeks 1-12 Test. Enath.250/ 500mg/week
Nolvadex on hand and for pct (maybe 20mg ed during)

I thought about deca instead of the eq, but I don't have any bromo and I'm not doing it if I can't stop the gyno(if it reared it's ugly head). The dbol is at 25 mg ed because they are 50 mg tabs and I'm definetly not taking 50 a day and any other division of the tablet would be a pain in the ass.
I realize the test usually is run slightly higher than the EQ, but I felt because of the 250mg/ml, it would just be easier. I am still running the test 1 week longer.
I also have a question about the use of nolva. I don't believe I am that susceptable to gyno. In light of that, I have been wondering whether I should just hold onto the nolva in case I feel something during the cycle and just wait until pct to use it. I don't want it to interfere with the estrogen in so far as to hurt any possible gains.
So, what do you Bro's think. I think it is simple enough yet should provide good gains, almost immediately.
Thanks

**n0_Genetics** · 09-07-2003, 03:16 AM

looks cool...
nolvadex kept on hand in case of any emergency. how about clomid for the pct?

**Tuggy** · 09-07-2003, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by n0_Genetics

looks cool...
nolvadex kept on hand in case of any emergency. how about clomid for the pct?

The research that I have done has lead me to believe that Nolv. is better for pct than clomid as it is a much stronger anti-est. I had thought about adding hcg to help with the testicular atrophy problem, but haven't decided.

**Warrior** · 09-07-2003, 03:32 AM

At 500mg per week of testosterone enathate, I would say 10mg of Nolvadex ED. Eq does aromatize too. This will help lower estrogen for less water and fat gain/retention.

**Tuggy** · 09-07-2003, 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

At 500mg per week of testosterone enathate, I would say 10mg of Nolvadex ED. Eq does aromatize too. This will help lower estrogen for less water and fat gain/retention.

Thanks Warrior, I hadn't really considered the water or fat aspect. I naturally assumed that The EQ would help keep the water down and combined with a good (not alot) cardio program, I could keep both fat and water down.
You don't think taking only 10 mg a day would have enough of an effect on estrogen level to effect gains?

**BDTR** · 09-07-2003, 09:48 AM

In my personal experience (not going to ramble on about studies done on lab rats) The one time i experimented on myself with nolva alone PCT instead of clomid, i had gained 15 lbs... I kept 5. Never again will I go without clomid post cycle. I know, the sides suck, but its something you have to deal with. Good luck. 10mg will not hinder gains in the least btw, cycle looks good.

**Rookiejay** · 09-07-2003, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Tuggy

The research that I have done has lead me to believe that Nolv. is better for pct than clomid as it is a much stronger anti-est. I had thought about adding hcg to help with the testicular atrophy problem, but haven't decided.

I don't know about that - so far, I've read only 1 article in favor of Nolva over clomid. The majority still agree - clomid is a must for PCT.

**TheMudMan** · 09-07-2003, 09:53 AM

Cycle looks really good. Simple is always good. I would use the nolva in the cycle (for bloat) and in PCT along with clomid.

**Tuggy** · 09-07-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by bdtr

In my personal experience (not going to ramble on about studies done on lab rats) The one time i experimented on myself with nolva alone PCT instead of clomid, i had gained 15 lbs... I kept 5. Never again will I go without clomid post cycle. I know, the sides suck, but its something you have to deal with. Good luck. 10mg will not hinder gains in the least btw, cycle looks good.

Thanks bdtr, I guess the clomid guys win hands down. Bartender, clomid for the house, I guess I'll include it in my order. I nkew the benifits, I just ciuldn't decide if they outweighed the sides.

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 09-07-2003, 12:16 PM

ive done both, clomid is superior in my experience

however i do both.

**Tuggy** · 09-07-2003, 09:28 PM

Thanks BB, I believe I will be doing both. Any input on still utilizing the HCG for the testicular atrophy that is experienced by most?

**Warrior** · 09-08-2003, 01:50 AM

Clomid for sure! It is used clinically to raise LH levels and block estrogen in woman to induce ovulation. In men, well... it raises LH levels and blocks estrogen. Just no ovulating... however if you were to ovulate then I would say stick to Nolvadex PCT.

Nolvadex is clinically used as an anti-e, thats it. And thats what we use it for. Clomid has the LH tie to it that makes a perfect drug for coming off exogenous androgens.

I always feel much better once I begin Clomid. One side effect I get though is acne. I can run all the test in the world on cycle - but during Clomid PCT the little devils start popping up.

**Tuggy** · 09-08-2003, 01:59 AM

Thanks warrior, I appriciate the input. I am still wondering about the HGC. The way I understand it, because of testicular atrophy, the clomid and or nolvadex are unable to truly accomplish its mission as the testes are unable to support the signals given it by the LH to increase the test naturally. Therefore, one should take HCG to help increase the size of the testes back to normal. Yes or no?

**Warrior** · 09-08-2003, 02:20 AM

HCG is good for that because it kinda slaps your nuts (parden the visual) into thinking LH again. Wakes them up. But unlike Clomid, it does not trigger them to actually produce LH - in fact if HCG is used too much it can shut you down itself. Most will agree that HCG is better for during a cycle to keep the testes awake and... at normal size (if you are prone to atrophy). Especially suited for long term androgen use.

I would say just keep it simple. Just come off with a good Clomid load.