Safer alternative to Nolvadex - Suggestions.

**realityarts** · 09-09-2003, 06:31 PM

I've read some manufacturer information that states that Nolvadex can significantly raise the risk of stroke (...).

What are some other alternatives that I can run with a test-only cycle? I'll take clomid for PCT.

Thanks...

**Devildog99** · 09-09-2003, 06:37 PM

Research proviron and see if you like what you find, I always use that either with or in place of nolv

**TheMudMan** · 09-09-2003, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Devildog99

Research proviron and see if you like what you find, I always use that either with or in place of nolv

Proviron is good... use 10mg per 100 mg of test
Here are more:
Anastrozole
Arimidex
femara

**halifaxsteve** · 09-09-2003, 07:18 PM

nolva is pretty safe...

check your girlfriends birth control pill package...it will say the exact same thing...the risk of stroke is miniscule

**toolman** · 09-09-2003, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by halifaxsteve

nolva is pretty safe...

check your girlfriends birth control pill package...it will say the exact same thing...the risk of stroke is miniscule

Juice also risks strokes with increased BP as well as others like Eq or any others that raise your RBC. I wouldn't sweat the Nolva if your not sweating the gear.

**skii96** · 09-09-2003, 07:33 PM

Nolva is probably the safest out their cuz it only blocks the estrogen and doesnt stop it from being produced. Some estro in your system is a good thing!

**realityarts** · 09-09-2003, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by toolman

Juice also risks strokes with increased BP as well as others like Eq or any others that raise your RBC. I wouldn't sweat the Nolva if your not sweating the gear.

I understand all this, and they are good points. Here's my take on it...

Yes, even salt or lack of salt can even cause a stroke and many other common substances...

Some things are worse that others though. Yes, juice holds potential problems for stoke...so, that is all the more that I do not want to stack it with even more potential. I'd like to use the safest anti-e that I can find.

Nolvadex has HEAVY warnings for stroke... Clomid does not - even though I'm sure it is possible.

So, I will look into some of the other possibilites (as mentioned above). Thanks for the help.

**realityarts** · 09-09-2003, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by TheMudMan

Proviron is good... use 10mg per 100 mg of test
Here are more:
Anastrozole
Arimidex
femara

Thanks TheMudMan - you too Devildog99. I'll be checking them out...

**realityarts** · 09-09-2003, 08:03 PM

Here's some info I read on Nolvadex :

Nolvadex can have potentially serious side effects including increased risk of endometrial cancer and uterine cancer, deep vein thrombosis (blood clotting in the deep veins), and pulmonary embolism (sudden blocking of an artery in the lung). It can also increase the risk of having a stroke.

In June 2002, the FDA and AstraZeneca Pharmaceuticals LP added a boxed warning and strengthened the WARNINGS section of the label for Nolvadex. Serious, life-threatening or fatal events associated with Nolvadex in the risk reduction setting include endometrial cancer, uterine sarcoma, stroke, and pulmonary embolism. The warning recommends that healthcare providers discuss the potential benefits versus the potential risks of these serious events with women considering Nolvadex to reduce their risk of developing breast cancer.

Here's a link to a PDF file on Novaldex from the FDA:

http://www.fda.gov/cder/foi/label/1998/17970ppi.pdf

Hey, at least we're not likely to get breast cance (though that is probably possible too), and most of us will not have "vaginal discharge."

**skii96** · 09-09-2003, 08:16 PM

You know i was just watching a drug ad on TV for paxil or something and it said as side effects "the same as a sugar pill. Dry mouth, fatigue, diarhea....". Most any drug will give side effects, its what we call the placebo effect. Just some food for thought.....

**johnsomebody** · 09-09-2003, 09:02 PM

I'm still trying to figure this stuff out but sometimes warnings are based (I think) on normal doses and normal periods of use. I have no idea how long the stuff is used pharmacologically -isn't it months?

You're doing the right thing anyway -you've got to research your brains out before taking anything questionable, if you ask me. I was really reluctant to use Clomid because it can cause visual impairment, in rare instances permanently, and since I'm an artist, that was a huge hurdle for me. But all the studies I read showed problems occurred primarily after months of use and that helped ease my mind.

**realityarts** · 09-10-2003, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

I'm still trying to figure this stuff out but sometimes warnings are based (I think) on normal doses and normal periods of use. I have no idea how long the stuff is used pharmacologically -isn't it months?

You're doing the right thing anyway -you've got to research your brains out before taking anything questionable, if you ask me. I was really reluctant to use Clomid because it can cause visual impairment, in rare instances permanently, and since I'm an artist, that was a huge hurdle for me. But all the studies I read showed problems occurred primarily after months of use and that helped ease my mind.

Yeah, I am wondering about taking higher than normal doses though - like 300mg or 100mg of Clomid...

Everything has some risks, I just want to keep them at a minimum.

**TheMudMan** · 09-10-2003, 05:54 AM

I wouldn't use clomid as an anti-e. For one thing it's weak for that job, second it has sides that effect your vision, thinning of your blood..... Sides are going to be there in all drugs that you take but that doesn't mean you will see them.

**Warrior** · 09-10-2003, 06:43 AM

Like TheMudMan was gettin' into - Clomid should be kept under 6 weeks since it has been shown to cause visual disturbances with long term use. Potentially irreversable.

I wouldn't sweat the Nolvadex . I am assuming you are an otherwise very healthy, active person. Stroke risks are probably more to do with those nonathletic type people out there who wake up at 3 in the morning for 5 or 6 hotdogs chased down with some Krispy Cremes... ya they do exist... weird ain't it?

**halifaxsteve** · 09-10-2003, 07:05 AM

These are all excellent points...

something else to consider, nolva can help improve your lipid panel...which can in turn, reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease (which includes stroke)

realityarts-one other thing...your post listing all the potential negative sides of nolva...i strongly suggest you look at a pack of birth control pills, read the product monograph well, they carry all the same warnings...how many young girls do you see dropping dead of stroke???

the risk is higher in Warriors krispy creme example...and lower for athletic, fit individuals.

don't sweat it...the sides from gear use are much more significant...if you can deal with those, then dont' lose any sleep over nolva

**realityarts** · 09-10-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by halifaxsteve

These are all excellent points...
something else to consider, nolva can help improve your lipid panel...which can in turn, reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease (which includes stroke)

halifaxsteve,

Please post more about Nolva and lipid benefits.

Thanks.

**realityarts** · 09-12-2003, 01:44 PM

Anyone know about benefits in lipid panel from Nolva?

**halifaxsteve** · 09-12-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by realityarts

Anyone know about benefits in lipid panel from Nolva?

To answer your question, nolva is traditionally known to have an effect on lipid metabolism in females. I uncovered this from a study on the effects of tamoxifen (nolva) on lipid panel in women: In a study of breast cancer patients, those taking Tamoxifen tended to have lower cholesterol concentrations (predominantly low-density lipoprotein cholesterol) and raised triglyceride concentrations. These changes are likely to be protective for coronary heart disease, suggesting Tamoxifen has an oestrogenic rather than anti-oestrogenic effect as regards lipid metabolism.

In subsequent research, i happened upon this article which looked into it's effects on the lipid panel in males:

Effects of tamoxifen on lipid profile and coagulation parameters in male patients with pubertal gynecomastia .

Novoa FJ, Boronat M, Carrillo A, Tapia M, Diaz-Cremades J, Chirino R.

Department of Endocrinology, Hospital Universitario Insular, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, Spain. [email protected]

BACKGROUND/AIM: The estrogenic actions of tamoxifen on lipid profiles and hemostasis have been extensively demonstrated in women. Due to limited experience with this drug in males, it is uncertain whether these effects are also present in men. The aim of our study was to assess the response of blood lipids, lipoproteins, and coagulation parameters in a group of men taking tamoxifen. METHODS: We studied 15 healthy boys with pubertal gynecomastia who were given 10 mg tamoxifen per day. Total testosterone , sex-hormone-binding globulin, estradiol, serum lipids, apolipoprotein B, apolipoprotein A-I, lipoprotein(a), fibrinogen, antithrombin III, von Willebrand factor, and markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis were determined at baseline and 1 and 3 months after beginning of the tamoxifen treatment. RESULTS: Total cholesterol and lipoprotein(a) showed moderate but significant decreases from baseline. Low-density lipoprotein and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol concentrations as well as triglyceride and apolipoprotein B levels became lower, but these changes were not statistically significant. Among clotting parameters, antithrombin III was reduced, and von Willebrand factor increased significantly. Markers of activated coagulation and fibrinolysis remained unchanged throughout the period of therapy. CONCLUSIONS: The effects of tamoxifen on blood lipids and hemostasis we found in this group of healthy young men were qualitatively similar, but lesser than those previously described in women. Copyright 2002 S. Karger AG, Basel

i believe this should answer your question, and then some. let me know if there is anything else. i can get into the chemistry on the effects on tamoxifen on lipid metabolism if you're really that interested