nolva and clomid for pct--only when cycling roids that aromatize??

**flexshack** · 10-13-2003, 05:23 PM

hey guys
i was wondering if nolva or any anti-e for pct with clomid is necessary if one does NOT take any aromatizing roids in their cycle? i know clomid is a must, that's not what i am questioning here. i think, from what i have read so far, that the reason for using anti-e's in pct is to control the estrogen buildup after your androgen levels are low. now i am guessing that the estrogen rise post cycle is due to the fact that the last amounts of test aromatize. am i correct here? now i could be wrong here, but i don't think that the body produces estrogen post cycle from nothing or no test, right? it is the test aromatizing, right? anyway, if this is the case, then is it really necessary for one to use nolva or arimadex with their clomid if they did a non-aromatizing cycle like anavar , etc.? thanks.
flex

**FrkyBgStok** · 10-13-2003, 05:35 PM

not sure about anavar . all steroids will shut you down because of the similiar bases (as far as i know). Therefore your test will be shutdown.....bro i don't know if this answers you in any way. If not.....disregard this response. Let me know.

**BDTR** · 10-13-2003, 05:36 PM

With test levels lowered/shut down there is always a risk of estrogen in your body doing some harm. I'd run the nolva with the clomid.

**flexshack** · 10-13-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by bdtr

With test levels lowered/shut down there is always a risk of estrogen in your body doing some harm. I'd run the nolva with the clomid.

but if test levels are lowered or shut down, then where is the estrogen coming from? test aromatizes INTO estrogen right. so if there is low or no test in your body then there should be low estrogen too, right?

**goldenear** · 10-14-2003, 10:38 AM

Bro, you run the SERM's to create a hormonal deficit. The deficit is what drives recovery. Remember, LH recovers fairly quickly without any pharmaceutical intervention.

**Warrior** · 10-14-2003, 10:52 AM

Some gear does not shut you down as much as others. True that. But remember, high estrogen levels can shut you down as well... or at least delay full recovery. Aside from keeping your system from recovering, extra estrogen post cycle will contribute to eating up your gains since it has a higher affinitly to lower LBM and increase fat storage. You need the Clomid post cycle to stop the estrogen (even if it is minimal) and to increase LH stimulation (which is unique to Clomid - this effect helps woman ovulate). IMO - better safe than sorry - personally, I would chase an Anavar only cycle with some sort of Clomid PCT... even if it was just 100mg of Clomid for 10 days. The endocrine system is very complex thing and even anabolics that don't directly aromatize to estrogen must have an indirect effect. More so when taken in large doses.

**flexshack** · 10-14-2003, 10:57 AM

thanks for all of these responses guys. btw, i always forget the difference between leuteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone. is it the fsh that stimulates sperm formation which than results in test production? or is it the other way around? thanks again.

**Warrior** · 10-14-2003, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by flexshack

but if test levels are lowered or shut down, then where is the estrogen coming from? test aromatizes INTO estrogen right. so if there is low or no test in your body then there should be low estrogen too, right?

Thats a very good question - one that I can't personally explain other than your system tries to maintain some kind of return to homeostatis and even if you increase your androgen levels via high doses of nonaromatizing AAS... you still increase total free testosterone levels . Something like Anavar is not very suppressive in low doses but deffinitly in higher (and more effective) amounts... when free testosterone levels peak and begin to aromatize indirectly from the Anavar. Just my .02

**Warrior** · 10-14-2003, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by flexshack

thanks for all of these responses guys. btw, i always forget the difference between leuteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone. is it the fsh that stimulates sperm formation which than results in test production? or is it the other way around? thanks again.

FSH stimulates the secretion of estrogen in the ovaries and LH stimulates testosterone in the testes.

**flexshack** · 10-14-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

FSH stimulates the secretion of estrogen in the ovaries and LH stimulates testosterone in the testes.

oh thanks warrior. but what does fsh do in men then?

**DBarcelo** · 10-14-2003, 11:43 AM

This is a copy of a post I just put up in the over 30 forum:

Both Nolvadex and Clomid are anti-estrogens, or more accurately, estrogen receptor antagonists. They attach to estrogen receptors and keep the estrogen from binding to your cells. There are different estrogen receptors in the body and they can cause different effects. Nolvadex targets breast tissue and prevents gynecomastia . Clomid prevents testicular shrinkage and gets your body to start producing it's own testosterone again. So, you should really be taking both anti-estrogens at the same time after your cycle. Since you're taking Sustanon 250, you should take both Clomid and Nolvadex for four weeks after your cycle, because Sust stays in your system longer than something like Dbol . Nolvex 20mg per day and Clomid 50 mg per day for a month should be good for you.

You may also want to take an aromatase inhibitor like Teslac , Arimidex or Cytadren . Teslac, Arimidex and Cytadren keep your body from converting excess testosterone into estrogen.

(estrogen rise post cycle is due to the fact that the last amounts of test aromatize. am i correct here?) Estrogen rises post cycle because while on cycle, you're putting a synthetic testosterone into your system and your body tries to maintain a ratio of testosterone/estrogen, something like 100/1. As you put more testosterone in your body, your body produces more estrogen to keep things even and balanced. Once you stop putting the testosterone into your system, it takes a little while for your body to figure out that it has to stop producing so much estrogen. Your body also tends to convert excess testosterone into estrogen to try to maintain that balance, so you can get the effects of gyno WHILE you're on your cycle. (but i don't think that the body produces estrogen post cycle from nothing or no test, right?). Because of what I already explained, it's not true, your body can produce estrogen without the presence of testosterone. (so if there is low or no test in your body then there should be low estrogen too, right?) The male human body produces testosterone and estrogen and the female human body produces estrogen and progesterone. The body doesn't need one to produce the other, but it does try to maintain a balance of both.

(anyway, if this is the case, then is it really necessary for one to use nolva or arimadex with their clomid if they did a non-aromatizing cycle like anavar , etc.?) Nolva, Arimadex and Clomid all do different things. You wouldn't need to take the aramatase inhibitor like arimadex, but you would still need the Nolva and the Clomid to combat the gyno and to get your own test production up and running again.

Hope that clears things up a bit for you.

**flexshack** · 10-14-2003, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by DBarcelo

This is a copy of a post I just put up in the over 30 forum:

Both Nolvadex and Clomid are anti-estrogens, or more accurately, estrogen receptor antagonists. They attach to estrogen receptors and keep the estrogen from binding to your cells. There are different estrogen receptors in the body and they can cause different effects. Nolvadex targets breast tissue and prevents gynecomastia . Clomid prevents testicular shrinkage and gets your body to start producing it's own testosterone again. So, you should really be taking both anti-estrogens at the same time after your cycle. Since you're taking Sustanon 250, you should take both Clomid and Nolvadex for four weeks after your cycle, because Sust stays in your system longer than something like Dbol . Nolvex 20mg per day and Clomid 50 mg per day for a month should be good for you.

You may also want to take an aromatase inhibitor like Teslac , Arimidex or Cytadren . Teslac, Arimidex and Cytadren keep your body from converting excess testosterone into estrogen.

(estrogen rise post cycle is due to the fact that the last amounts of test aromatize. am i correct here?) Estrogen rises post cycle because while on cycle, you're putting a synthetic testosterone into your system and your body tries to maintain a ratio of testosterone/estrogen, something like 100/1. As you put more testosterone in your body, your body produces more estrogen to keep things even and balanced. Once you stop putting the testosterone into your system, it takes a little while for your body to figure out that it has to stop producing so much estrogen. Your body also tends to convert excess testosterone into estrogen to try to maintain that balance, so you can get the effects of gyno WHILE you're on your cycle. (but i don't think that the body produces estrogen post cycle from nothing or no test, right?). Because of what I already explained, it's not true, your body can produce estrogen without the presence of testosterone. (so if there is low or no test in your body then there should be low estrogen too, right?) The male human body produces testosterone and estrogen and the female human body produces estrogen and progesterone. The body doesn't need one to produce the other, but it does try to maintain a balance of both.

(anyway, if this is the case, then is it really necessary for one to use nolva or arimadex with their clomid if they did a non-aromatizing cycle like anavar , etc.?) Nolva, Arimadex and Clomid all do different things. You wouldn't need to take the aramatase inhibitor like arimadex, but you would still need the Nolva and the Clomid to combat the gyno and to get your own test production up and running again.

Hope that clears things up a bit for you.