How much AAS use before there's no turning back...

**realityarts** · 10-26-2003, 07:44 PM

Ok, this matter has been popping up in other threads, and seems like it could use some fresh, direct discussion.

In general, on average, how much AAS use do you think it takes a a guy (in general - we all know every person is different) before he cannot produce his own testosterone any longer - and in need of permanent replacement/HRT/cycles...?

How common do you think it is for a person (generally speaking) who does beginner to intermediate cycles (as defined in many of the threads here) with appropriate PCT and off-cycle time to become unable to produce his own necessary hormones/steroids and need permanent HRT...?

Also, please reflect on and share your plans regarding long-term AAS use. Do you plan on stopping sometime? Please explain. There are many here who seem to be very interested in these issues.

Thanks bros.

RA

**BUYLONGTERM** · 10-26-2003, 08:50 PM

Bump

**BDTR** · 10-26-2003, 08:50 PM

Probably about.....

<---- this much.

**Mudge** · 10-26-2003, 09:23 PM

As long as you come off and do a post cycle you should have few issues if any, HCG is great by the way.

Even people who have been on for years have been brought back, I am not suggesting this to you however. Your question is a bit ill worded.

**daem** · 10-26-2003, 10:14 PM

i try to structure my entire year so that i am using AS when it will most benefit me, ie. leading up to spring break (depending on where i go) and summer. my cutting cycles tend to be only 8-10 weeks long while a bulking one would go for about 15-17 not including post.

that means that i am on around 23-27 weeks per year. i don't really think i could handle being on all year round because diet, training regiment, and motivation all tend to get boring or old if they are repeated for a long enough time.

i don't plan on stopping until i can't get ahold of any more or i experience some extreme complications that prevent me from cycling. frequent blood work and proper post cycle therapy both contribute to my usage decisions.

i really couldn't answer the first few parts because i don't know the answers.

**LightWeightBaby** · 10-26-2003, 10:46 PM

It all depends on the age, the length of the cycle, the steroids being used, and post cycle treatment

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mudge

As long as you come off and do a post cycle you should have few issues if any, HCG is great by the way.

Even people who have been on for years have been brought back, I am not suggesting this to you however. Your question is a bit ill worded.

A good comment in there - thanks for the input.

Ill worded?

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 12:26 AM

Originally Posted by LightWeightBaby

It all depends on the age, the length of the cycle, the steroids being used, and post cycle treatment

Really?

J/K

**somedude247** · 10-27-2003, 12:51 AM

Once u start - there is no turning back

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by somedude247

Once u start - there is no turning back

Hundreds have stopped... I'm not sure what you mean.

**100571** · 10-27-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by realityarts

Hundreds have stopped... I'm not sure what you mean.

you are exactly right. I'm out of the game, for sure. It is just not that important to me. Going to the doc in 30 min. so I'll ask his opinion. I'm sure that the 3 grams that I used will have little or no effect on me *fingers crossed* if the gear was even real.

100571

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by 100571

you are exactly right. I'm out of the game, for sure. It is just not that important to me. Going to the doc in 30 min. so I'll ask his opinion. I'm sure that the 3 grams that I used will have little or no effect on me *fingers crossed* if the gear was even real.

100571

I know there can be any number or reasons based upon many factors, but I'm curious what changed your mind about using AAS?

What were the deciding factors, if you don't mind sharing...

Thanks.

RA

**D3m3nt3d** · 10-27-2003, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by bdtr

Probably about.....

<---- this much.

I was hoping I had a chance to respond before Bdtr did, however I would say when you reach his point...doubling your body weight of when you started, then you know there is no turning back

**D3m3nt3d** · 10-27-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by realityarts

I know there can be any number or reasons based upon many factors, but I'm curious what changed your mind about using AAS?

What were the deciding factors, if you don't mind sharing...

Thanks.

RA

His girl was his deciding factor

**Testify** · 10-27-2003, 01:05 PM

It would be nice to get some serious and informed answers.

But perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Maybe it should be "What kinds of cycles result in diminished baseline Test (recovery)?" There are at least three variables here: individual reaction to a cycle, types of hormones being used, and length of cycle. If anyone has any to add, please do.

Maybe we then have three separate quetions that all inform the initial one?

My contribution: Cycles without Test will shut you down much more, making it more difficult to regain pre-cycle baseline levels.

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Testify

It would be nice to get some serious and informed answers.

But perhaps you are asking the wrong question. Maybe it should be "What kinds of cycles result in diminished baseline Test (recovery)?" There are at least three variables here: individual reaction to a cycle, types of hormones being used, and length of cycle. If anyone has any to add, please do.

Maybe we then have three separate quetions that all inform the initial one?

My contribution: Cycles without Test will shut you down much more, making it more difficult to regain pre-cycle baseline levels.

My intention was to leave it very general... As it is, many cycles/situations is/are relative. If the question doesn't fit a cycle or situation, then it is not related to the initial intention of the thread.

Yes, we know what will shut one down, but it is not necessarily permanent - extended PCT is often indicated.

Thanks for the comments.

RA

**Testify** · 10-27-2003, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by realityarts

As it is, many cycles/situations is/are relative.

That says it all. There may be a way to generalize this information, to a degree, but at some point it loses meaning. The answer would be too broad. Its better to accept that there may be three (or two - or four?) general components that may be used to find your answer. This at least will make the information applicable.

The only other way to find an answer is to collect scientific data on a broad range steroid users and try to average the time at which HRT becomes necessary. However, this result would be specious. It would be a correlation with too many variables to draw a valid conclusion.

Just my .02

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Testify

That says it all. There may be a way to generalize this information, to a degree, but at some point it loses meaning. The answer would be too broad. Its better to accept that there may be three (or two - or four?) general components that may be used to find your answer. This at least will make the information applicable.

The only other way to find an answer is to collect scientific data on a broad range steroid users and try to average the time at which HRT becomes necessary. However, this result would be specious. It would be a correlation with too many variables to draw a valid conclusion.

Just my .02

You're making too much out of my post. I know what I am after... That is why I underline and bold text, to make it painfully clear to avoid debates over how or what I should think or post.

Relax Testify. People get the idea. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 01:56 PM

Just to add... I don't get my science here -- I'm thinking that many don't. I'm looking for opinion and thoughts for the sake of interesting discussion. I see a plethora of incorrect information given in forums quite regularly.

**johnsomebody** · 10-27-2003, 01:57 PM

The real tragedy, in my opinion, about all this is that there are people out there who are permanently damaged right where I assume they least want it -and I mean permanently diminished natural test production from having done gear, despite having followed all the precautions. I've collected way too many quotes by people to that effect since I've been surfing these sites. What shocks me is that some people who are using gear are so into it it seems to me like they just don't care -and it looks more and more to me like a LOT of people are that way.

Is having your normal ability to produce test pretty much destroyed, or at least not caring if you do, just part of this game?

Maybe that's the more direct question.

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by D3m3nt3d

His girl was his deciding factor

Ok, I think I do remember a recent post of his about that. Thanks.

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

The real tragedy, in my opinion, about all this is that there are people out there who are permanently damaged right where I assume they least want it -and I mean permanently diminished natural test production from having done gear, despite having followed all the precautions. I've collected way too many quotes by people to that effect since I've been surfing these sites. What shocks me is that some people who are using gear are so into it it seems to me like they just don't care -and it looks more and more to me like a LOT of people are that way.

Is having your normal ability to produce test pretty much destroyed, or at least not caring if you do, just part of this game?

Maybe that's the more direct question.

I also see what seems to be a lack of care or perhaps a lack of thinking about the negatives (as if believed to be invinsible) by more than a few...

I think a lot of this comes from a lack of life experience (age-maturity), and a great deal comes from the subconscious thought inbedded in the back of the mind: "It can't happen to me."

Many live for the here and now, without much regard for the future. We've all done (or are doing) this to some extent.

I think this is just like any other thing that can get a hold of people. We all put our time (perhaps too much) into this or that, and over-indulge at times in one thing or another. Perhaps some of us have taken chances with other drugs, and know more about things like this. It really is an interesting thing to ponder...that is, the things that we give ourselves over to.

It pays to get quite and ask ourselves (while alone): "why am I doing this?" (whatever "this" is). And give ourselves the REAL (honest) answers - and then weigh the possible consequences to see if it is really worth it or not. Then, one cannot simply give something up without putting something in its place - so it is wise to offer one's self an alternative to any unwanted behavior/practice...

Interesting...

RA

**Testify** · 10-27-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by realityarts

You're making too much out of my post. I know what I am after... That is why I underline and bold text, to make it painfully clear to avoid debates over how or what I should think or post.

Relax Testify. People get the idea. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I'm not dogging you, Bro. I am only trying help get at the answer. You say that you only want a simplistic hypothesis, based on the anecdotal experience of others. And that's cool, if that's what you want. There are a few guys here on HRT, but not many. Its tough to draw a broad conclusion based on the experience of a few. But I hope we get some of them to reply here. Perhaps they have second hand info from their doctor about this?

And I think johnsomebody asks a good question. I'd like to hear responses to both.

**McBain** · 10-27-2003, 03:13 PM

I'd say biggest factor is time. I know most bros say time on = time off is a good rule of thumb.......but I think personally you need more time off than that in order to make sure you body FULLY recovers.

I think at least every 2-3 cycles you should take a solid 6-9 months off the gear to be safe. Now for some this isn't realistic if they are competing, etc. But I'd say for many this is a realistic precautionary move. If they have the patience and self-discipline to stay off the juice for that long.

I don't know if it's just me but if you've taken 6 months off of AAS you do start to notice differences (at least in my sex drive).

Just my 2 cents

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by Testify

I'm not dogging you, Bro. I am only trying help get at the answer. You say that you only want a simplistic hypothesis, based on the anecdotal experience of others. And that's cool, if that's what you want. There are a few guys here on HRT, but not many. Its tough to draw a broad conclusion based on the experience of a few. But I hope we get some of them to reply here. Perhaps they have second hand info from their doctor about this?

And I think johnsomebody asks a good question. I'd like to hear responses to both.

Again, I'm not after any scientific survey. If I were, I'd be elsewhere...getting just that.

I did not direct my question specifically to people on HRT - though I did ask about those who are now in need of permanent HRT. This for any person who is or has used AAS.

Yeah, JS always asks good questions

He's a thinker and that's a good thing!

It is obviously a good subject, however my guess is that many are not willing or ready to discuss it. And, not everyone is on AR at the same time.

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by McBain

I don't know if it's just me but if you've taken 6 months off of AAS you do start to notice differences (at least in my sex drive).

Just my 2 cents

McBain, do you, personally, notice positive or negative differences?

**100571** · 10-27-2003, 04:08 PM

I wrote a lenghty resonse on why I quit... and it fucked up and didn't post. Here's teh abridged version:

I like learning. I learned about roids, but when it came to taking them, I did not really get into it like I thought I would. There are a lot of risks (documented and yet to be determined) that people convince themselves are not factors so that they can feel OK about doing roids. I was nto goign to do another cycle after my current one b/c I don't want to be a blocky meathead. I had even contemplated cuting it short b/c I was nto seeing gains. My (former?) girlfriend was just the icing on the cake. For me, it is important to take into consideration the impact my actions will have on the people I care about. Plus, I just wan't "into it" like some people on the board. There is good info here, and some bad. But if you are goign to do AAS, at least untilize communities like this one to the best of your ability. I'm glad I did... but not glad I did the roids. Caused more personal problems than it was worth.

**100571** · 10-27-2003, 04:12 PM

oh, the Dr. was vague about your question. Too many factors to consider, he said. In my case, he said the HTPA was probably not effected, and if it was it will come back very quickly on its own. We are very resiliant, evidently. He advised me not to take Clomid bc my test levels will basically level out when the man made gear leaves my body. Although 500 mg a week is A LOT more than normal, it is nto enough to fuck anythign up... especially for only 5.5 weeks. Long cycles and multiple cycles are where you run into problems, evidently.

**100571** · 10-27-2003, 04:13 PM

evidently

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by 100571

I wrote a lenghty resonse on why I quit... and it fucked up and didn't post. Here's teh abridged version:

I like learning. I learned about roids, but when it came to taking them, I did not really get into it like I thought I would. There are a lot of risks (documented and yet to be determined) that people convince themselves are not factors so that they can feel OK about doing roids. I was nto goign to do another cycle after my current one b/c I don't want to be a blocky meathead. I had even contemplated cuting it short b/c I was nto seeing gains. My (former?) girlfriend was just the icing on the cake. For me, it is important to take into consideration the impact my actions will have on the people I care about. Plus, I just wan't "into it" like some people on the board. There is good info here, and some bad. But if you are goign to do AAS, at least untilize communities like this one to the best of your ability. I'm glad I did... but not glad I did the roids. Caused more personal problems than it was worth.

I can respect what you're saying for sure. I wonder though, why do you still post/reply to the steroid forum. Let me emphasize that there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, and you are certainly welcome and encouraged to do so (independent of my saying so for sure). I understand that you may have made some forum friends here and such... I'm just curious if part of the reason has to do with any regret that you quit and perhaps still some lingering desire to use(?)

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by 100571

oh, the Dr. was vague about your question. Too many factors to consider, he said. In my case, he said the HTPA was probably not effected, and if it was it will come back very quickly on its own. We are very resiliant, evidently. He advised me not to take Clomid bc my test levels will basically level out when the man made gear leaves my body. Although 500 mg a week is A LOT more than normal, it is nto enough to fuck anythign up... especially for only 5.5 weeks. Long cycles and multiple cycles are where you run into problems, evidently.

How did you doctor appear to react to your telling him you used AAS? Obviously, not too bad to help you...

Did he run any blood tests to look at your levels, or did he just guess?

RA

**talon** · 10-27-2003, 06:20 PM

I have always been under the perception that, like others have said, time off equals time on. The only true answer to the question is in you OWN bodies response to the hormones you are putting in your body. Any hormone will effect any person different then it did the last. This is the only true answer to this question. Someone can post I had to go on HRT, because I used for years on end straight w/ out stoping. Yet, as mentioned earlier somone stated that a person can be on for large spans of time and still recover. Like mentioned earlier, also, experimentation on this subject couldnt not be pheasable, especially in my like, because of to many associative variables. I feel that you own blood work and feeling should be the determining factor to how long you can stay on and there is really no other way around it. I mean I read a post along time ago about a guy who used at a young age, stunted his growth, and nearly deminished his sex drive for the latter part of his life. Everyone is different.
Realityarts, this is my opinion btw, it does not reflect the views or opinions of others. Im on my FIRST cycle and couldnt possible have obtained the knowledge needed to answer your question. This is how I feel it should be answered.

***Billy_Bathgate*** · 10-27-2003, 06:22 PM

I dont think its the dose, but the duration.

Then again I know guys that have been on a good 3 yrs to come off just fine.

Hard to say really...

**johnsomebody** · 10-27-2003, 07:31 PM

One thing I think about too is that the crowd at AR is pretty much self-selected for people who are either still learning or not having problems with the stuff. I assume anybody who got messed up, whether temporarily or permanently, isn't going to be hanging around giving feedback, or not for long.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think 100571 is probably kinda rare.

I don't want to seem down on AAS use or HRT at all, I'm just questioning things, as usual. I have a bad habit of questioning everything.

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by talon

I have always been under the perception that, like others have said, time off equals time on. The only true answer to the question is in you OWN bodies response to the hormones you are putting in your body. Any hormone will effect any person different then it did the last. This is the only true answer to this question. Someone can post I had to go on HRT, because I used for years on end straight w/ out stoping. Yet, as mentioned earlier somone stated that a person can be on for large spans of time and still recover. Like mentioned earlier, also, experimentation on this subject couldnt not be pheasable, especially in my like, because of to many associative variables. I feel that you own blood work and feeling should be the determining factor to how long you can stay on and there is really no other way around it. I mean I read a post along time ago about a guy who used at a young age, stunted his growth, and nearly deminished his sex drive for the latter part of his life. Everyone is different.
Realityarts, this is my opinion btw, it does not reflect the views or opinions of others. Im on my FIRST cycle and couldnt possible have obtained the knowledge needed to answer your question. This is how I feel it should be answered.

Understood. I certainly do not base my decisions with what I read here...rather on what fits my own personal condition...

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Billy_Bathgate

I dont think its the dose, but the duration.

Then again I know guys that have been on a good 3 yrs to come off just fine.

Hard to say really...

That makes sense. As you know, there are obviously so many variables in this.

It would be good to hear from some who have found out that they cannot produce test on their own...

**realityarts** · 10-27-2003, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by johnsomebody

One thing I think about too is that the crowd at AR is pretty much self-selected for people who are either still learning or not having problems with the stuff. I assume anybody who got messed up, whether temporarily or permanently, isn't going to be hanging around giving feedback, or not for long.
Maybe I'm wrong but I think 100571 is probably kinda rare.

I don't want to seem down on AAS use or HRT at all, I'm just questioning things, as usual. I have a bad habit of questioning everything.

You're right - good point, but some who are here may know of others (who may not be here in AR) with the problem -- and direct to other sites or whatever to read about such cases.

There's nothing wrong with questioning things.

RA

**100571** · 10-28-2003, 09:22 AM

I question things way too much. And, yes... I feel like I sold myself short changed myself by not finishing the cycle. I have made friends on this board and will continue to hang around. I have A LOT of free time at work, so this helps me pass the time. I seriously doublt that I will juice again, but there is a small question in the back of my mind: "what if I had stayed on for 10 weeks?" The Dr. ordered blood work, but assured me that everythign was peachy (just on a hunch). He said people come in and ask for blood work because they use steroids "all the time". Interesting, eh?

**realityarts** · 10-28-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by 100571

I question things way too much. And, yes... I feel like I sold myself short changed myself by not finishing the cycle. I have made friends on this board and will continue to hang around. I have A LOT of free time at work, so this helps me pass the time. I seriously doublt that I will juice again, but there is a small question in the back of my mind: "what if I had stayed on for 10 weeks?" The Dr. ordered blood work, but assured me that everythign was peachy (just on a hunch). He said people come in and ask for blood work because they use steroids "all the time". Interesting, eh?

It's probably best to not entertain the 'what-ifs.' You've made your decision, and perhaps one 'what-if' you can rest well with is: what if your mind/body was trying to tell you to quit because you were going to be really messed up if you continued. IMO, the best way is the natural way. I waited decades before getting to the point that I used AAS - and hopefully my decision will prove to be a good one. I am very cautious, and try not to take things lightly. As long as I look and feel good (healthy), and the equipment still works, I am a happy camper.

Good luck.

RA