Eyesight damage?

[bigdave91]

Does Clomid damage your eyesight? I heard that it can cause visual disturbances but can it actually damage your eyesight?

This is very inportant for me as my job requires good eyesight.

Dave

[PurePower]

yes it can cause blurred vision

[Pheedno]

Occular damage is a possiblity, but any study I've seen where permanent damage has occured, the patients had been administered 50mg doses for up to 5 years.

No telling what the long term is for us, but for short term, the length of time we're on couldn't produce such drastic permanent changes

[johnsomebody]

Yeah, I'm an artist and I was worried sick the one time I did a cycle. I was flabbergasted I had no problems at all except maybe a little light sensivitivy toward the end. I had my eyes checked recently and they're fine.

I agree with Pheedno, but there is one case I came across in the lit of a woman who had permanent damage after only a few weeks, but she was the rare exception. If you do begin to have problems you may want to bail, but you could try switching to Nolva first to see if that helps. They're not identical but a lot of people say they're interchangeable for PCT.,

[bigdave91]

You mean that i could run Nolva instead of clomid? im running 40mg Tamoxifen (nolva) per day at the moment.

Dave

[legend]

if your not having problems with the clomid you should stick with it.

[Pheedno]

Studies have shown Nolva to have the same effect, only less drastic results, and also, very long administration of the drug

I use both for PCT

[bigdave91]

Is there any alternative to Clomid for PCT that is as effective?
Ifso what?

I havent started it yet and dont for a few weeks.

Dave

[johnsomebody]

Hello? Didn't we just day Nolva is similar to Clomid and can be used instead for PCT? Be sure you use an equivalent dose if you do since they're not equal mg for mg.

And I agree you should stick with Clomid unless you have problems, for whatever that's worth.

[ichabodcrane]

I am pretty sure we have discussed this. Try doing a sesarch. Both drugs (being chemically/structurally similar) seem to have the potential to cause oculotoxicity. They can accumulate in the macula/fovea and crystallize out. Most studies with nolva were, of course, done in women who took the drug for long durations, and may have also been on other oculotoxic drugs (ie. corticos). But there is increasing evidence that both drugs can induce this damage.

[johnsomebody]

I am pretty sure we have discussed this. Try doing a sesarch. Both drugs (being chemically/structurally similar) seem to have the potential to cause oculotoxicity. They can accumulate in the macula/fovea and crystallize out. Most studies with nolva were, of course, done in women who took the drug for long durations, and may have also been on other oculotoxic drugs (ie. corticos). But there is increasing evidence that both drugs can induce this damage.

Ichabod

[Ntpadude]

Does Clomid damage your eyesight? I heard that it can cause visual disturbances but can it actually damage your eyesight?

This is very inportant for me as my job requires good eyesight.

Dave

I think some people advise using 300 mg per day at first in PCT... this high dosing is what causes the problems... maybe 150 mg for starters would be effective without changing the eyeglass prescription.

Nolva is completely effective at just 20 mg everyday from the get go... never need more because no matter how bad the estrodiol levels, 20 mg will block the most important estrogen receptors in breasts, testicles, prostrate and fat cells. At 40 mg Nolva some noticed big increases in CUM production similar to high doses of clomid and also has similar effects for triggering LH increases which get everything running again in the natural testosterone department.

[bermich]

Good thread. I did feel my vision was blurry at times which made me wonder. Now I know what it was from since the time lines match and it has never occured before my clomidia cycle.

[groverman1]

I thought my blurry vision was from whacking off.

[TheSevnthWarrior]

Studies have shown Nolva to have the same effect, only less drastic results, and also, very long administration of the drug

I use both for PCT

Pheedno, do you mean in regardds to the blurred vision, or PCT?
The reason I ask is because this topic of Nolva vs. Clomid comes up a lot, and I don't now, and probably never will understand this, cuz "back in the day" (I'm not saying how long ago this was!) Clomid wasn't popular, around my click anyway (The net was relatively unused in my circle) so we had the natural stuff, HCG , and Nolva...and believe me, going off was not looked forward to, HCG made for a good start, but legthened PCT overall, and Nolva never "really" brought my boys back like they should be IMO. Great for bloat and bitch tits though.
When I had my first experience with Clomid, I was stoked, and thought Finally something that really works.
So I cannot imagine using Nolva only for PCT.
Can you explain the accepted science on this, cuz personally from experience the Nolva only thing just has never worked well for me.

[johnsomebody]

I'm confused too -here's a big Bill Lewellyn article saying Nolva is preferable to Clomid but I don't think that means much...

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-77.html

And here's one discrediting it...

http://www.rippedcanadians.ca/articles/hcg.html

Stuff like this makes me crazy.

[TheSevnthWarrior]

I'm confused too -here's a big Bill Lewellyn article saying Nolva is preferable to Clomid but I don't think that means much...

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-77.html

And here's one discrediting it...

http://www.rippedcanadians.ca/articles/hcg.html

Stuff like this makes me crazy.

Me too, I just don't get it, I've read NUMEROUS articles, most of them violently conflicting.
I can say this:
If there wasn't anything but Nolva for PCT, I'm not sure I would do many more cycles, and if I did, they would be lighter, shorter, and farther apart.
I can remember in the old days panicing, taking up to 100 mg of Nolva ED and eating like Preditor/Carnavore trying desparately to save what I'd just made.
I keep Nolva on hand year round, can't imagine doing this without it, and I'm a big Nolva fan, just not for PCT by itself.

[Doc M]

The blurred vision is a short term side effect and rarely is ever seen beyond discontinuation of the drug..Especially at the doses that are recommended for post cycle recovery..Nolva can also cause this effect but is often less noticeable..I would stick with the clomid and ride out the blurred vision unless it causes you to be put in danger, i.e..driving, operating heavy equipment, etc..

Doc M

[ichabodcrane]

The blurred vision is a short term side effect and rarely is ever seen beyond discontinuation of the drug..Especially at the doses that are recommended for post cycle recovery..Nolva can also cause this effect but is often less noticeable..I would stick with the clomid and ride out the blurred vision unless it causes you to be put in danger, i.e..driving, operating heavy equipment, etc..

Doc M

I tend to think of the oculotox. as a cumulation effect, which is both dose and duration dependent. But I have read studies which have still shown the potential for damage even with short term use. Bummer, cuz these meds are really effective IMO.

[Pheedno]

Pheedno, do you mean in regardds to the blurred vision, or PCT?
The reason I ask is because this topic of Nolva vs. Clomid comes up a lot, and I don't now, and probably never will understand this, cuz "back in the day" (I'm not saying how long ago this was!) Clomid wasn't popular, around my click anyway (The net was relatively unused in my circle) so we had the natural stuff, HCG , and Nolva...and believe me, going off was not looked forward to, HCG made for a good start, but legthened PCT overall, and Nolva never "really" brought my boys back like they should be IMO. Great for bloat and bitch tits though.
When I had my first experience with Clomid, I was stoked, and thought Finally something that really works.
So I cannot imagine using Nolva only for PCT.
Can you explain the accepted science on this, cuz personally from experience the Nolva only thing just has never worked well for me.

I use both for PCT. I'm saying that both clomid and Nolva have the possiblity to cause occular damage to the eye. But in any case that I've seen, the study showed continued use of up to 5 yrs.

Long term effects in us can't really be determined as our use in these meds is so sporatic and no study has been done on that kind of administration(at least that I've seen). It's just not feasible. The sides are remp. as of now, will they reoccur later in life?

[ichabodcrane]

I was going over some studies I pulled up from medline. I think it is still a difficult situation to assess. Most of the studies can't relate to our patient population, and many of the studies included other drugs which are known to cause damage to the eye. Here is one study with a "possible" mechanism for cataract formation, but always remember to read studies carefully, sort out biases, relate patient populations, methods, etc.
http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/...ournalcode=jci

Also, I have tons of abstracts if you guys want to see them. My concensus is that there is always the possibility. You will find just as many studies showing for as you will against. So you have to make up your own decision, as I (we) have. Just be aware, that's all! If you notice visual distubances, might be worth getting checked out. Make sure there are no crystalline deposits forming, no optic neuropathy, retinopathy, degeneration, cataract formation etc. So good advice might be to say if you begin to notice unusual disturbances, get it checked out. I can't say that if damage is being done, that it can be completely reversed. Some of the studies showed reversal of some symptoms, while no resolution of others.

[Doc M]

So good advice might be to say if you begin to notice unusual disturbances, get it checked out. .

I think this should cover it..Visual disturbances that last more than a few days should be checked out immediately..Losing your eyesight is a risk you don't want to take..As stated above, if you are going to introduce these meds into your system, be aware that the possibility of short or long term damage is possible..

Doc M

[Breetai]

verry good read.. just one thing about the dosages.

do ppl realy need 300mg day one? and why?

ive read somewhere thats 100-150mg is enough. please give me some feedback on this.

[TheSevnthWarrior]

verry good read.. just one thing about the dosages.

do ppl realy need 300mg day one? and why?

ive read somewhere thats 100-150mg is enough. please give me some feedback on this.

While you are on, your body builds up tons of Cortisol, and tons of new Cortisol receptors. These new Armies of Cortisol and Cortisol Receptors are "basically" harmless as long as you stay on. However, as soon as you come off, you are seriously out numbered, and this new "army" has only one purpose: Break Down Amino Acids. Therefore you need this Kickstart/reinforcement to Combat the overwhelming offset of this "enemy."

[Phillyboy1]

when i was on clomid, after a week i swore i was having flashback from trippin when i was in high school, i actually liked it cause it only happened if i had a drink or 2. very very fun lol. but i didnt have anything after i stopped the clomid. i was taking 100mg a day for 2 weeks. and only noticed the vision thing in the second week

[Pheedno]

verry good read.. just one thing about the dosages.

do ppl realy need 300mg day one? and why?

ive read somewhere thats 100-150mg is enough. please give me some feedback on this.

Clomids half life is about 5-7 days. It takes roughly 4x that to reach steady blood levels. Front loading shortens that amount of time.

I use 100mg for 28 days without the 300mg front load