receptor sites...real knowledge please

[jeanz08]

I am going be competing in the 2004 npc collegiate nationals in pittsburgh come july...i am currently running 1 gram of test cypionate for 8 weeks to bulk then switching to 800 mg deca/week and 350 mg prop eod for 8 weeks then 75mg winni ed, 75mg fina eod the final four weeks....clen and cytomel will be included also...anyways....i ran 250mg enanthate and 200mg deca last semester which where there as prob a 6 week break from use...before i started this cycle....i am on my fourth week of a gram and i am just starting to get a little stronger...but not the gains that one would expect from a gram of test...considering i gained close to 25 lbs from the last cycle(still had most of my abs...so most was muscle and not water and fat) of only 250 test and 200 deca...also i started to gain fairly quick...my nutrition with this cycle is far superior to the last cycle and i still cant seem to get much gains....is it possible that my receptors are burnt out...i read that this is nonsense....that body just gets immune to it...and if u add more....should keep growing...this is important bc i need to put on some muscle for the show that im doing come july

p.s. the guy that is helping me out for the show said something to me about burning out my receptors...but i didnt buy it....is it possible that he is right and that i willnot even grow off 1 gram of test....or could it just be taking some time to get going...????

thanks in advance for responding...this is very important considering i have to get up in those gay ass trunks in about 17 weeks!!!!!

[Mallet]

If it's only your 4th week on test, it's really just starting to take noticeable effect. I would give it a couple of weeks and see...give the test a chance!

[inheritmylife]

Receptors dont burn out, you just gain weight and need more in order to gain.

The fact that you only took 6 weeks off may have something to do with it, but with a gram of test, I doubt it.

Give it time.

[RJM03]

If you grew well off 250mg of test a week and 200mg of deca, why the need to jump up to a gram of test. More is not necessarily better, you may make the same gains but with increased sides. Make sure you have anti E 's ready.

[the dent depot]

If you grew well off 250mg of test a week and 200mg of deca, why the need to jump up to a gram of test. More is not necessarily better, you may make the same gains but with increased sides. Make sure you have anti E 's ready.

Exactly what I was thinking. You dont go from 250mg test to 1k, and if you do...you wont be getting 4 times the results. A bad move in my opinion. 500 would have been plenty. Whats next....1500mg/wk?

D

[jeanz08]

well heres the thing...i was doing 750 the first three weeks(from 200 deca and 250 test..isnt that big of a jump)....i got anxious bc i wasnt gaining and bumped up to a gram.....and the guy that is helping me...which won a major npc show...cant name bc i dont want to put peoples names on here..... said that i should be using a gram with some anadrol or d-bol to bulk..i dont like anadrol and d-bol so i thought that i could compensate buy taking more test....i also didnt want to hand more money out bc i already had to still buy the prop, winni, fina, clen, t3, clomid, nolvadex, hcg, and deca....which i had money for....and just enough.....im not some idiot just shooting randomly....i just got anxious c i have a show coming up....and needed to add some quality muscle...

[jeanz08]

and obviously i dont expect 4 times the results buddy...im not an idiot...and anytime u want to put some pictures up and show what u look like and what i look like..we will see who knows what he is doing when i comes to putting a physique together...

[Jackman]

and obviously i dont expect 4 times the results buddy...im not an idiot...and anytime u want to put some pictures up and show what u look like and what i look like..we will see who knows what he is doing when i comes to putting a physique together...

First off hes giving you **** advice. If you dont like what you hear leave and take your ego with you. And yes you seem like an idiot jumping from250mg to 1g and telling us its not a big jump.

[DARKSEID]

perfect example of why just because someone is in good shape doesn't mean he knows how to set up proper cycles.

[jeanz08]

so ur telling me saying "whats next 1500 mg is not jackin me off"?....i dont think that ud like to hear that either...and let the man speak for himself...i dont think he needs u to stick up for him....hes a big boy...and he seems to have a smart mouth...i didnt ask in the original thread for a smart-ass answer did i?....thank-you....

[jeanz08]

all i asked was.....was it true that receptor sites could be burnt out....not what some smart-ass has to say about my cycle...i dont think jackin me off is way of giving advice...

[Jackman]

first off your body will get used to doing 1g of test is what he was saying he was not ****ing with you. thats why he said whats next 1500mg. You are supposed to go up slowly is doses are you progress in cycles. So in fact your the one who was the smart ass.

[jeanz08]

oh yeah...ill send u a link to the guy that set up this cycle for me...he has won more titles in the eastern U.S. than maybe anyone on this board....and he is a guy who is in shape and doesnt know how to set up a cycle?....oh yeah he was a training partner of milos sarvez when he lived in western pa...so ur right hes just and idiot in shape who doesnt know how to set up a cycle...my guess is ur some jeek behind a computer....

[Jackman]

oh yeah...ill send u a link to the guy that set up this cycle for me...he has won more titles in the eastern U.S. than maybe anyone on this board....and he is a guy who is in shape and doesnt know how to set up a cycle?....oh yeah he was a training partner of milos sarvez when he lived in western pa...so ur right hes just and idiot in shape who doesnt know how to set up a cycle...my guess is ur some jeek behind a computer....

Yes im a big "jeek" lol.I retract my statement about you being a smart ass. Your just a fuc&king moron. And you need to be 18+ to enter thing board so ill say 1 more time take you and your dumbass ego away. good day

[jeanz08]

okay....13% bf....whos the moron who doesnt know how to eat correctly who the **** gets that fat who gives a **** about their physique...oh yeah ur just one of those dreamers who wishes he had the physique of that guy he sees and the gym(me!!!!)......i think food knowledge comes b4 taking anabolics knowledge...no wait ur one of those guys who thinks that he can rely on juice to get him the physique he wants..sorry bro starts with not being a fat ass...better luck next time

[jeanz08]

enough arguing with u..oh yeah u can catch me in the winners circle at the 2004 npc collegiate championships this july in pittsburgh....hope to see u there...bye fatty

[Mallet]

Where are your Pictures jeanz08???? PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

[inheritmylife]

Where are your Pictures jeanz08???? PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

Oh ****! You hear that? I do believe that was the sound of a gauntlet dropping.

[LuvMuhRoids]

jeanz,

Sounds like you jumped up to fast. Yes you can flood the receptors. Also, your liver can only covert a certain amount of hormones over to test. If not it gets converted to estrogen and floods the receptors as well.

Also, it takes 4-6 weeks for test enanthate to kick in. Even then you will not feel the full affects. I suggest 10-12 weeks of use with Enanthate to get the full saturation period utilized.

Again, I see you are using fina to harden your gains. Run tren ED not EOD because it is a fast acting ester and will be in n out quickly. You will not reach the saturaton phase fast enough nor keep constant plasma levels to get the full benefit of the acetate. Lastly, winny and tren both are not necessary, in my opinion.

This all seems like an incredible jump from your last cycle.

Good luck in your competition.

[LuvMuhRoids]

jeanz,

It's good that your cocky. That is needed on stage but leave the comments off the board. No one meant any harm here. You came to the right board for advice. I gaurantee you this is the board for all your advice and needs. There are pro bodybuilders, medics, doctors, researchers, therapists, and years and years of knowledge or experienced users on here. Keep the attitude on the down low.

enough arguing with u..oh yeah u can catch me in the winners circle at the 2004 npc collegiate championships this july in pittsburgh....hope to see u there...bye fatty

[speedtraining]

I want to see some pictures.

[jeanz08]

alright man i respect that...ill give it a rest....i just got a little irritated bc i what i was looking for was exactly what u responded with...i am aware that it is a jump....but it is what the guy has me running....so not only is the fat-guy jackin me off...hes saying that the guy helping me out has no idea what he is doing........anways ...thanks for the advice...u obviously know what ur talking about....i dont have any pics..but could get some im sure if i had to if my fat-buddy wanted to post some of his...i can asure you he wont want to(13%)....anyways....ill probably be competing in light-heavy...possibly middle...which i doubt bc i think it is stretching it to get that light... if u care....ill be the guy with the tattoo around his forearm ....ill put some pics up when im about to cut and right about contest time....thanks again for the advice

[einstein1905]

I'm not going to comment on the big jump in test beyond saying it's not a great idea. This isn't meant to offend anyone (keep this in mind while reading this). Just because someone is huge and has won shows all over the place does not mean they have much of a clue when it comes to setting up a cycle. Genetics are the number one criterion that'll determine how one responds to AAS and/or training. Being massive or having the knowledge to best set up an AAS cycle are completely separate issues. Neither is indicative of the other.

[Jackman]

post the pics bitch and now im 11% 210 pounds at 5'8 whats your stats lets hear em. And i am in no way fat lol. If only i could take kids seriously with big mouths who take 1g of test from 250 lol. Your still a fool with a big mouth. They realy shouldnt let imature little pricks on here. And when and if you do post your pics make sure your holding somthing with your name on it.

[Jackman]

And i thank you for your comment, idiots like you just push me that much harder at the gym.

[speedtraining]

And i thank you for your comment, idiots like you just push me that much harder at the gym.

Why you getting salty over a online attack who gives a shiit.

[Billy_Bathgate]

Receptors dont get burnt out.

Receptors dont really get flooded as in a bad thing, they dont stay very long attached so ones out and the next is in. You want them to have one ready to be attached. Blood levels at an instantaneous point in time are very short lived, you have them leaving and coming all the time.

Most stop gaining because they arent eating enough or some problem with their training.

[einstein1905]

Yeah, like BB said. AAS bind androgen receptors, and the complex translocates to the nucleus.....end of story. Receptor upregulation and downregulation is very dynamic. Initially, when introducung AAS to your system, ARs will be upregulated but will potentially be downregulated as time progresses at the same AAS plasma levels. Potentially, bumping the dose of AAS, after having been on continuously for an extended period may again cause an upregulation of receptors. Also, upping the doses will increase the probability of an AAS molecule binding to an AR. Upping the dosage does not mean your gains will increase nor does it mean sides will not increase. It's in one's best interest to keep doses as low as you can, which still allows substantial gains. Megadoses should be a last resort and should be reached gradually, if at all.

[billy_ba]

I love internet tough guys....

With that said, more gear dosent nessecarily mean more gains. Do your researce bro, there's a button called search at the top of the screen. Use it. I had a buddy in high school that ran a gram a week for 4 weeks. It was his third cycle and went from 500t/400 eq the cycle before and thought he would take a cycle like the "PRO'S". None the less, he got gyno from 4 weeks of test. If your body cant handle something it freaks out, as is bad enough, but overdoing it is just retarded. Stick with 500 test and some deca

[Rubabanman]

Just because someone is huge and has won shows all over the place does not mean they have much of a clue when it comes to setting up a cycle..

Having heard Ronnie Coleman speak, Im inclined to agree....

[JohnnyB]

Here's something that'll help

Taking issue with the idea of androgen receptor down-regulation.
By Bryan Haycock MS.


There is as much misinformation about steroids as there is good information had among bodybuilding enthusiasts. Go to any gym and you will hear some kid spouting off to his buddies about how steroids do this, or how they do that, or whatever. This soon starts somewhat of a pissing contest (excuse the expression) as to who knows more about steroids. It's the same kind of titillating and infectious banter that adolescent boys get into about girls and sex. With steroid banter you hear all the popular terms like Deca, Test, GH, gyno, zits, raisins, "h-u-u-u-ge", roid, freak, monster, roid-rage, "I knew this guy once", etc., etc.. If by some rare chance they are smart and have been reading this or some other high quality bodybuilding site on the net, they may actually get a few details right. More often than not they know just enough to be dangerous. Fortunately steroids haven't proven to be all that dangerous. Not only that, but most of these guys who are infatuated with steroids won't ever use or even see them except in magazines.

This kind of ego driven gym talk doesn't really bother me until they begin giving advice to other clueless people who actually have access to them. Spewing out steroid lingo gives other less experienced kids the impression that these kids actually know what they are talking about. That's how all of the psuedo-science folklore about steroids perpetuates. This is also why most people who actually use steroids know little about them. This last fact should bother anyone who cares about bodybuilding and/or bodybuilders.

I started out with this article planning on giving some textbook style explanation as to why using steroids doesn't down regulate androgen receptors (AR). Then after considering some of my critics views that I tend to write articles that hardly anyone can read, I decided to write an easy to read, yet informative explanation about what androgens actually do and how this precludes androgen receptor down regulation. I still have a few references but not so many that it looks like a review paper.

Androgen receptors down-regulate….Don't they?

One misunderstood principle of steroid physiology is the concept of androgen receptors (AR), sometimes called "steroid receptors", and the effects of steroid use on their regulation. It is commonly believed that taking androgens for extended periods of time will lead to what is called AR "down regulation". The premise for this argument is; when using steroids during an extended cycle, you eventually stop growing even though the dose has not decreased. This belief has persisted despite the fact that there is no scientific evidence to date that shows that increased levels of androgens down regulates the androgen receptor in muscle tissue.

The argument for AR down-regulation sounds pretty straightforward on the surface. After all, we know that receptor down-regulation happens with other messenger-mediated systems in the body such as adrenergic receptors. It has been shown that when taking a beta agonist such as Clenbuterol, the number of beta-receptors on target cells begins to decrease. (This is due to a decrease in the half-life of receptor proteins without a decrease in the rate that the cell is making new receptors.) This leads to a decrease in the potency of a given dose. Subsequently, with fewer receptors you get a smaller, or diminished, physiological response. This is a natural way for your body to maintain equilibrium in the face of an unusually high level of beta-agonism.

In reality this example using Clenbuterol is not an appropriate one. Androgen receptors and adrenergic receptors are quite different. Nevertheless, this is the argument for androgen receptor down-regulation and the reasoning behind it. The differences in the regulation of ARs and adrenergic receptors in part show the error in the view that AR down-regulate when you take steroids. Where adrenergic receptor half-life is decreased in most target cells with increased catecholamines, AR receptors half-live's are actually increased in many tissues in the presence of androgens.1

Let me present a different argument against AR down-regulation in muscle tissue. I feel that once you consider all of the effects of testosterone on muscle cells you come to realize that when you eventually stop growing (or grow more slowly) it is not because there is a reduction in the number of androgen receptors.

Testosterone: A multifaceted anabolic

Consider the question, "How do anabolic steroids produce muscle growth?" If you were to ask the average bodybuilding enthusiast I think you would hear, "steroids increase protein synthesis." This is true, however there is more to it than simple increases in protein synthesis. In fact, the answer to the question of how steroids work must include virtually every mechanism involved in skeletal muscle hypertrophy. These mechanisms include:

*

Enhanced protein synthesis
*

Enhanced protein synthesis
*

Enhanced growth factor activity (e.g. GH, IGF-1, etc.)
*

Enhanced activation of myogenic stem cells (i.e. satellite cells)
*

Enhanced myonuclear number (to maintain nuclear to cytoplasmic ratio)
*

New myofiber formation

Starting with enhanced growth factor activity, we know that testosterone increases GH and IGF-1 levels. In a study by Fryburg the effects of testosterone and stanozolol were compared for their effects on stimulating GH release.2 Testosterone enanthate (only 3 mg per kg per week) increased GH levels by 22% and IGF-1 levels by 21% whereas oral stanozolol (0.1mg per kg per day) had no effect whatsoever on GH or IGF-1 levels. This study was only 2-3 weeks long, and although stanozolol did not effect GH or IGF-1 levels, it had a similar effect on urinary nitrogen levels.

What does this difference in the effects of testosterone and stanozolol mean? It means that stanozolol may increase protein synthesis by binding to AR receptors in existing myonuclei, however, because it does not increase growth factor levels it is much less effective at activating satellite cells and therefore may not increase satellite cell activity nor myonuclear number directly when compared to testosterone esters. I will explain the importance of increasing myonuclear number in a moment, first lets look at how increases in GH and IGF-1 subsequent to testosterone use effects satellite cells.

Don't forget Satellite cells!

Satellite cells are myogenic stem cells, or pre-muscle cells, that serve to assist regeneration of adult skeletal muscle. Following proliferation (reproduction) and subsequent differentiation (to become a specific type of cell), satellite cells will fuse with one another or with the adjacent damaged muscle fiber, thereby increasing the number of myonuclei for fiber growth and repair. Proliferation of satellite cells is necessary in order to meet the needs of thousands of muscle cells all potentially requiring additional nuclei. Differentiation is necessary in order for the new nucleus to behave as a nucleus of muscle origin. The number of myonuclei directly determines the capacity of a muscle cell to manufacture proteins, including androgen receptors.

In order to better understand what is physically happening between satellite cells and muscle cells, try to picture 2 oil droplets floating on water. The two droplets represent a muscle cell and a satellite cell. Because the lipid bilayer of cells are hydrophobic just like common oil droplets, when brought into proximity to one another in an aqueous environment, they will come into contact for a moment and then fuse together to form one larger oil droplet. Now whatever was dissolved within one droplet (i.e. nuclei) will then mix with the contents of the other droplet. This is a simplified model of how satellite cells donate nuclei, and thus protein-synthesizing capacity, to existing muscle cells.

Enhanced activation of satellite cells by testosterone requires IGF-1. Those androgens that aromatize are effective at not only increasing IGF-1 levels but also the sensitivity of satellite cells to growth factors.3 This action has no direct effect on protein synthesis, but it does lead to a greater capacity for protein synthesis by increasing fusion of satellite cells to existing fibers. This increases the number of myonuclei and therefore the capacity of the cell to produce proteins. That is why large bodybuilders will benefit significantly more from high levels of androgens compared to a relatively new user.

Testosterone would be much less effective if it were not able to increase myonucleation. There is finite limit placed on the cytoplasmic/nuclear ratio, or the size of a muscle cell in relation to the number of nuclei it contains.4 Whenever a muscle grows in response to training there is a coordinated increase in the number of myonuclei and the increase in fiber cross sectional area (CSA). When satellite cells are prohibited from donating viable nuclei, overloaded muscle will not grow.5,6 Clearly, satellite cell activity is a required step, or prerequisite, in compensatory muscle hypertrophy, for without it, a muscle simply cannot significantly increase total protein content or CSA.

More myonuclei mean more receptors

So it is not only true that testosterone increases protein synthesis by activating genetic expression, it also increases the capacity of the muscle to grow in the future by leading to the accumulation of myonuclei which are required for protein synthesis. There is good reason to believe that testosterone in high enough doses may even encourage new fiber formation. To quote the authors of a recent study on the effects of steroids on muscle cells:

"Intake of anabolic steroids and strength-training induce an increase in muscle size by both hypertrophy and the formation of new muscle fibers. We propose that activation of satellite cells is a key process and is enhanced by the steroid use."7

Simply stated, supraphysiological levels of testosterone give rise to increased numbers of myonuclei and thereby an increase in the number of total androgen receptors per muscle fiber. Keep in mind that I am referring to testosterone and testosterone esters. Not the neutered designer androgens that people take to avoid side effects. This is not an argument to rapidly increase the dosages you use. It takes time for these changes to occur and the benefits of higher testosterone levels will not be immediately realized.

Maintenance of the kind of muscle mass seen in top-level bodybuilders today requires a given level of androgens in the body. That level will vary from individual to individual depending on their genetics. Nevertheless, if the androgen level drops, or if they were to "cycle off" the absolute level of lean mass will also drop. Likewise, as the level of androgens goes up, so will the level of lean mass that individual will be able to maintain. All of this happens without any evidence of AR down regulation. More accurately it demonstrates a relationship between the amount of androgens in the blood stream and the amount of lean mass that you can maintain. This does not mean that all you need is massive doses to get huge. Recruitment of satellite cells and increased myonucleation requires consistent "effective" training, massive amounts of food, and most importantly, time. Start out with reasonable doses. Then, as you get bigger you can adjust your doses upwards.

References:

1.

Kemppainen JA, Lane MV, Sar M, Wilson EM. Androgen receptor phosphorylation, turnover, nuclear transport, and transcriptional activation. Specificity for steroids and antihormones. J Biol Chem 1992 Jan 15;267(2):968-74
2.

Fryburg DA., Weltman A., Jahn LA., et al: Short-term modulation of the androgen milieu alters pulsatile, but not exercise- or growth hormone releasing hormone-stimulated GH secretion in healthy men: Impact of gonadal steroid and GH secretory changes on metabolic outcomes. J Clin Endocrinol. Metab. 82(11):3710-37-19, 1997
3.

Thompson SH., Boxhorn LK., Kong W., and Allen RE. Trenbolone alters the responsiveness of skeletal muscle satellite cells to fibroblast growth factor and insulin-like growth factor-I. Endocrinology. 124:2110-2117, 1989
4.

Rosenblatt JD, Yong D, Parry DJ., Satellite cell activity is required for hypertrophy of overloaded adult rat muscle. Muscle Nerve 17:608-613, 1994
5.

Rosenblatt JD, Parry DJ., Gamma irradiation prevents compensatory hypertrophy of overloaded extensor digitorum longus muscle. J. Appl. Physiol. 73:2538-2543, 1992
6.

Phelan JN, Gonyea WJ. Effect of radiation on satellite cell activity and protein expression in overloaded mammalian skeletal muscle. Anat. Rec. 247:179-188, 1997
7.

Kadi F, Eriksson A, Holmner S, Thornell LE. Effects of anabolic steroids on the muscle cells of strength-trained athletes. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1999 Nov;31(11):1528-34

JohnnyB

[jeanz08]

to jackman...wow dude...im a bitch...okay...first im older than u...by one year, not a little kid in h-s like u would love to believe...and i am leaner and bigger 203(today) roughly 7-8%bf than u...and yes i will post pics when im done bulking, and yes when im done bulking i still wont be as fat as u are...u need to lay off the mc-d's..u think 11% is something to brag about....man keep that info to yourself...jease u coulda juiced that up a little...u know below 10% or so!!....and ill post again before i go into the npc nationals....u think that im some joke?...do u really think i would be trying to get a national ranking and possibly a contract if i was some little **** with a sorry physique...and for anyone else who thinks i have these great genetics...ur wrong...i work my ass off to be that lean and muscular all year...its the lifestyle...not the genetics....

...to the the guys who helped me out...thanks a ton...that is what i was figuring... i was looking for some reassurance....and i did take precautions to taking these amounts of drugs...i am very aware of the possible effects...i have it all nolv, arimidex, etc, and im being monitored by a doc....im sure those who know a lot about juice...know that if taken in a responsible manner the effects are not all they are cracked up to be.....obviously if u have a predisposition to high blood pressure, etc...they can be life threatening....same for insulin, etc.............and those who believe that im taking a pro bodybuilder stack...get real...this is nothing..

[JohnnyB]

OK guys the flaming has to stop or this thread will be locked

JohnnyB

[the dent depot]

Youre right JohnnyB, thats why I didnt respond when stick-boy attacked me.

I say lock it or delete it bro!

D

[Jackman]

lol and he keeps going.

[Mallet]

LOCK DOWN!