First Time User : Some Advice Please

[xenithon]

Hi all,

I live in South Africa. Here roids are fairly well priced compared to the rest of the world, and we only get really good stuff here. I am currently 20, 5'11'', around 150 lbs (80 kgs). I have tried andro's and all that crap but it's time to really grow. I do not want to compete, or be massive, or not be able to brush my teeth

I just want to go on a cyle to gain around 6-9 kgs of lean muscle. I want to be muscular, lean and cut, like those models in EAS magazines. I do not want to bulk then cut, bulk then cut etc. I want to put on good, lean mass and keep it.

I have finished a 5 month course of antibiotics for mild acne, and it's all gone now (knock on wood). It seems to be staying away now.

I have researched lots, talked to trainers and mostly to doctors (one of which is an absolute roid guru). I plan to go 6 week cylce of deca and prima, to keep it clean and minimise side effects.

Anyone got any opinions of this? Anything I should do/alter/add to minimise acne returns or maximise lean muscle gain, preventing fat and water retention?

thanks all!

[dane26]

if you're dead set on using deca and primo, i would at least add some winny. deca is gonna give you some water retention, and winny will help to combat that. assuming that you can get winny, here's what i would do:

for weeks 1-8, use take 400-600mg per wk
for weeks 3-8, add 50 mg winny each day
weeks 9-11, add the primo at 300mg each week
clomid should run for three weeks at 50mged/100mged/50mged

[xenithon]

thanks for the input. I am trying to go pretty low dosage, and keep it quite clean. winny is a very 'old-school' steroid, quite dirty, if you know what I mean.

my plan was as follows, and my doctor (steroid expert) agrees this would be good:

deca : 6 weeks, going 100mg, 200mg, 300mg, 300mg, 200mg, 100mg
primo: 100mg/week for the 6 weeks

he said this is very safe and clean, and doesn't even need correctables. but to be on the safe side he said I could take nolvadex or pregnyl.

i really don't want a hectic cycle of 8-12 weeks, nor do I want to gain 15 kgs. I agree on your cycle opinion fully, but I just don't think its right for my purpose, maybe for someone looking to grow much more.

[Lush]

Don't taper the deca. If you going to go light on deca then go light. I agree with dane that adding winny is the way to go. it may be old school but it was good enough for Ben Johnson.

And do 10 weeks. 6 is nothing. the deca only reaches full doses at about week 4. And don't think of it as a "hectic cycle". You'll be loving it- once the gear kicks in you won't want it to ever stop.
I'd say:

Weeks 1-10
deca 400mg
primo 300mg

Weeks 7-11
winny 50mg/day.

6-9kgs (13-20lbs) of keepable muscle is a fair bit. With correct diet/work-out regime it should be possible with the above stack.

[The original jason]

xenithon let me give u a few pointers the guys on ehre will really help you oout if you are able to help yourself out, you come on here with the attitude that you know everythig and your friend is the man if that was the case you wouldnt be asking here. The cycle you have proposed will do nothng for you certainly not 8-9 kilos of lean mass you would be lucky if you could keep that from a full blown mass cycle, you dont taper injectable roids they are self tapering so your man cant be that well up on up to date methods and cycles what I suggest is you get a bit humble and listn to what the guys tell you that way you might get to where you want to be sooner rather than later! also when is 80k 150lbs?? i just read back again also why would he suggest nolva?? there will be no estrogen related side effects from these drugs I think u need to do some research bro do yourself a favour dont listen to this guy I would read some stuff here ask some questions there is more knowledge than you will ever be able to absorb

peace
jason

[dane26]

well said jason. i couldn't agree more. and lush is right in the fact once you're on, you'll want to stay on....6 wks is nothing. this definately not a hectic cycle.

[juiceon]

I would estimate that you would be very lucky to gain 2 lbs on that cycle. 100 and 200 mg of deca a week is literally nothing, so you might as well not even take it. 300 mg is even questionable, but for a 6 week cycle it is absurd. Your doctor is pulling your crank.

I don't think you should go on at all. Given your goals and fears, you should be able to get what you want naturally.

[AlexG]

firstly i disagree because i have personally seen people put on 5-6 kg from a deca course (only deca) in 8 weeks. If u can intake enuf carbs and protein during the course and if it is your first time then you can pull it off. First course you grow a lot and i gained 14 kilos in 8 weeks taking 200,200, 300, 300, 300, 300, 200, 200, mg of nandralone (deca), 100 mg of prima depot each week and Primabolin S tablets with 2 Sus 250 shots in my peaking weeks. That was my first course and i retained 10 kilos 7 months after the course and i am not fat. So being his first course i believe he could put on 4-5 kg of solid mass and keep it by increasing the dosage of deca a little. And he said his doctor said he could use novaldex "JUST. to be on the safe side" which is true because there is a risk of aromatizing to estrogen. So it cant hurt him to take Novaldex/Clomid. Every organizm reacts differently to steroids and there is no guarantees on anything. He could get liver problems after dianabol/sustanon after his first use (seen that too) so you cannot guarantee anything.

[Fast Results]

Hmmm, his is stating to be a pissing match. Here let me put my 2 cents in. My dog can put on some weight if she eats plenty of carbs and protien but I KNOW that eatting everything thats not nailed down is not going to put on quality mass. By the end of the 6wks you would need to do nothing but cardio to get your lean mass. So what Im saying is that whatever you did during the cycle to get what your looking for, say goodbye because you'll will not keep anything. There is not enough damage to your muscle sort of speak to recoop from.
My first cycle I tapered it just like your post and got good results ....a few years later I did it again but like we saying now no tapering (in or out) and my results have doubled since the first time. Why waste your time and get diddly from a cycle that just has shit for results when you could get the real thing by listening to the board. Putting 200mg in your ass rather than 400mg is useless, hit it right and do it right. Or maybe we're all wrong and the "quality muscle" we have is just imaginary Or maybe your not ready for this board, but continue the way your going and we will hear from you soon


Fast R

[AlexG]

There is no RULE Book how steroids will work on you if there is one send me i need it for our grocery store. 90 % of the athletes who used steroids that i know never went for blood test beforehand and injected themselves right away because someone said "Take this much and that much for this long". All i said is that it works differently on different ppl. Some ppl reach natural plateau within 3 years some withing 6 so my point is every person ha different genetics different test levels and reacts differently to growth H or steroids. Less steroids = lesser chance of side effects. If he just wants to be 85-87 kilos why go on a 12 weeks course when with a 300 G protein 500 g of carbs per day for 6 weeks he could get to 85 kilos.

[Lush]

yup, this is getting to be a pissing match.

fast results, if If you don't mind me carrying on your argument- clearly you can roll dice every week to determine what gear at what doses you'll do, and if you're eating enough and hitting the weights right- you're gonna put on big weight in 8-10 weeks. But that doen't make it right.

AlexG- no need to get defensive bro- I think the guy's posting here are just trying to say that you can do any random nutbag cycle if you want - but there IS a right way to get the results you're looking for. And finding the right way is why we come here.
And xenithon's roid guru doctor is really not giving experiended advice.

just figured I'd keep the ball rolling bro's........

[The original jason]

Well Alex I was wondering how come you are not moderator and that?? how come we all spend many precious hours in the day helping people get things right when we dont really have time but make the time just to help people with cycles and that and you are saying its wrong??. Really people like you piss me off you have been here 5 minutes and now look you are a steroid god, what I suggest is you stay around a few message boards for a while learn the etiquette of how it works first then start to slwly ease your way in with a few polite comments offer some advice if you think you have some thats cool but we are a family here everyone looks out for everyone else if you come here and start a pissing match as someone so nicely put it you are not gonna get very far now go back to your grocery store and read some more of them steroid books you sell where they recomend to take nolva with deca and primo cycles, and you should taper

peace
jason

[juiceon]

Originally posted by The original jason
. . . and read some more of them steroid books you sell where they recomend to take nolva with deca and primo cycles, and you should taper

peace
jason

LOL!

[AlexG]

sorry Mr moderator my bad... obviously i dont know anything and ill go read more books in my "grocery shop" thank god we god pros like you to explain us what to do. I see ull go far bro gimme a shout when your liver strarts falling off maybe i could get you some medicine from my "grocery shop". Peace

[The original jason]

thanks for that ! and my livers ok thanks, also wouldnt come to your store cos you would probably prescribe me paracetomol x 50 per day for hairloss

peace
jason

[Big Al]

Can I just say I'm testy, so this may seem alittle harsh

PAY YOUR FUCKING DUES BEFORE YOU DIS BRO'S (ESPECIALLY DAMND DECENT MODS LIKE JASON) IN HERE! LEAVE THE ATTITUDE AT THE DOOR, COS IT FUCKS ME OFF THAT ONE PRICK A MONTH COMES ON AR WITH A GOD COMPLEX AND A FUCKING ATTITUDE. WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO IT ITS PATHETIC DISREPECTFUL AND A FUCKING WASTE OF EVERYBODIES TIME.

CAN WE NOT BAN TWATS?

ANYWAY RANT OVER,

NICE TO BE BACK,

WITH EVERYTHING GOING ON YOU'D THINK PEOPLE WOULD JUST CHILL AND MAKE AND EFFORT.

AND MY SCAMMER HEAD IS FLASHING HERE!

BA

[xenithon]

hi all

I posted the original thread and ONE reply, and this has turned into a freegin war zone! do I smell roid rage??

honestly now....You ppl must understand that I DO come here to get all opinions and other peoples point of view. just because I gave one reply, does NOT mean I am saying 'what do you know, my guys know all, you know nothing'. u ppl r coming here after my ONE reply and you tell me 'attitude, get out, don't talk balk'... that really not fair and messed up attitudes from your side. and the other ppl giving their opinions - I'm sure you understand - you guys are saying you know everything, dont listen to anyone else I talk to, and the other ppl I talk to say exactly the same! thus I cannot come in here and automatically say oh yess gods of mine tell me the knowledge! because that would be stupid of everyone who comes on the blood boarD!!!!!

come on ppls, get real, dont diss ppl from one reply, because then u are being just as bad as those assholes in the gym who say LISTEN TO ME, AND NO ONE ELSE!!!

[timvds]

hey, if it comes down to ranting and raving to get people to voice theyre opinions so be it. right? ive gotten more info out of these threds than most. RAVE ON PEOPLE, ITS ALL GOOD.

[juiceon]

Originally posted by xenithon
hi all

I posted the original thread and ONE reply, and this has turned into a freegin war zone! do I smell roid rage??

honestly now....You ppl must understand that I DO come here to get all opinions and other peoples point of view. just because I gave one reply, does NOT mean I am saying 'what do you know, my guys know all, you know nothing'. u ppl r coming here after my ONE reply and you tell me 'attitude, get out, don't talk balk'... that really not fair and messed up attitudes from your side. and the other ppl giving their opinions - I'm sure you understand - you guys are saying you know everything, dont listen to anyone else I talk to, and the other ppl I talk to say exactly the same! thus I cannot come in here and automatically say oh yess gods of mine tell me the knowledge! because that would be stupid of everyone who comes on the blood boarD!!!!!

come on ppls, get real, dont diss ppl from one reply, because then u are being just as bad as those assholes in the gym who say LISTEN TO ME, AND NO ONE ELSE!!!

No, if you read the other threads on this board you will find that ALL of us ask questions still and comment when someone posts something new. No one purports to be a steroid god, as you say. It's just that some things fall into an "obvious" category - such as the minimal dosages for an effective cycle, especially a deca/primo only cycle.

[xenithon]

fully understood. but the ppl, especially moderators who should set an example, should not diss ppl when they give a single comment and almost spit on them with such bad attitude towards them. we ARE here to learn, but has no one EVER heard of the term, CONSTRUCTIVE ARGUMENTS! please ppl, keep calm, I know your testosterone is at 1500% normal, but lets just answer properly and act better than everyone.

[BullDogg20]

Listen xenithon, i am new to anabolicsteriods my self. i have been comming to theis discussion board since last febuary or march reading up on ideas and cycles, also asking questions once i educated my self a little bit. Deca and primobolan are both extremly light anabolics. if you want decent gains that are quality then listen to some of the people in here. Alot of people add primobolan or deca to their cycle almost as a reassurance that it wont F U C K them up. becasue they are extremly mild cycles. Jason and alot of the other vets have helped me out alot with my questions. ihave never heard any of them say take this this and this and you will grow. they always ask questions and then give advice. You dpnt know shit about anabolic steriods xenithon so dont come here acting like you do.



Peace out

BullDogg

[xenithon]

i rest my case. Read the other posts my friend and you tell me whether or not they are saying take this take that and grow. The not only tell me that, but after my one reply they told me get out with attitude, u dont know shit etc. etc. Honestly now, if I was replying 50 times saying 'yes, but this guy said this, and that guy said another thing' etc. then obviously u have something to be pissed about. otherwise, u ppl are really being unfair.

[Mike]

Ok I started readin all this then got really bored with all the drama - so I skimmed through the rest. Why doesnt everyone shut up and the guy who posted this first let's work on getting you a cycle that will acheive what you're looking for - none of this other crap matters. But I will say this.....your friend is not a roid guru if thats his suggestion - and for the guy with the grocery store - 90%?? I can't stand people that cite statistics they make up -

here's the deal - what are you looking to gain and what do you have access to? What are your fears and concerns? Let's try to start making this post constructive and get back on the right track.

[Lush]

Damn, what's up with you South African guys, Xenth. and alexG.
You guys are pretty f'in opinionated and yet neither of you really knows too much, and you guys really don't seem to like getting advice that's contrary to what you believe.

Why the fakk are you posting questions and comments then?

And AlexG, you really are a clown buddy. Keep posting chump, and i'm sure you'll just dig yourself digger into your stupid hole.

LOL. Damn you guys crack me up...

[Lush]

Yeah, good call Mike. we should stick to bussiness here.

It was getting pretty entertaining though..... hahahaha

[xenithon]

that's what i've been trying to tell these people mike. As you can see as you read the thread, I posted the orginal msg and one reply, and then everyone told me crap and attitude and youknownothing etc. etc. etc. All i was saying with my 1 reply is that EVERYONE has an opinion - obviously. and if someone on the post says one thing, and some guys I speak to personally say anada thing, I HAVE to ask questions and ask 'what it' and 'but' questions - to get the full story!

like I said before, i wanted to gain 5-8kg lean mass. I came off antibiotics for skin (mild) so I dont want something heavy like winny or sus. So the ppl i spoke to suggested (and I have seen great results from ppl doing the same cycle) something like this (this is a revised cycle)

primabolan s = 8 tabs/week = 200mg / week
deca, pyramiding 200, 300, 400, 400, 300, 200mg per week. this will be the 6 week cycle. and then 'just to be safe' take some nolvadex or pregnyl, maybe some clomid if neccessary. after all those are just safety factors, I may not need them at all, just mentioning them as precautions.

[cosmokramer]

First off "Winny" is not by far a heavy steriod. It is kind of hard on the liver but all you have to do on that is take some milk thistle. Second for my very first cycle i took 500 of for 10 weeks. I gained around 25 pounds. but after a couple of months I lost 15 lbs of it. It is a strong injectable but i only kept 7 to 10 lbs of good quality muscle (isn't that your goal?). So that should tell you something doesn't it? That no matter what you take, except for a few, you are not going to keep all you gains. So if you want to gain around 10 lbs of muscle than you have to take more than I would think based on my own experiences and plus what i,ve read on this board.

Cosmo

P.S. Why are you asking for peoples opinion when you won't even take them into consideration? It seems like before you ask the question you already had a set answer. Don't do that it pisses people off, espicially the vets here that definitly know what they are talking about because they have had plenty of experience.

[Mike]

Ok your friends are wrong and if they made great gains by primo and deca - thats great - but dont expect much. First off stay away from primo tabs altogether - second there is NO logic in cycling primobolan with deca.

I dont understand what your statement means about 'something heavy like winny and sus' What do you mean by heavy? On the liver? On the acne? In general??

Test/deca would be a sufficient cycle - give me a good reason why that would not work for you, if it does then we can start drafting up a cycle.

be safe

[dane26]

i guess i'm the asshole for trying to help out someone i thougth was a new bro. i guess i was mistaken. don't get me wrong, i'm not offended that someone didn't take my advice on a cycle. we only offer suggestions here. i am a little pisssed that every bro on this board was disrespected by two rookies. we should all just let them be. it's their bodies. if they want to waste a cycle and take thier weight from 150 to 155, why should we care? many of us put hours into this board trying to educate others. sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't. but we never get personal, and we never disrespect a brother. not only have brothers been dissed, but the brothers that have been disrected are mods and vets, without whom this board wouldn't exist. i started this whole thing by trying to help, now i'd like to end it. to the people who have disrespected this board.........do your semi-cycle, waste some nolvadex, add five lbs, then come back when it's all over with a new screen name and try to learn something. and tell you're doctor friend to do the same

[Fast Results]

Im trying to stay out of this but since Im on a cycle and getting a little pissed ... Listen You stated that we alll got defensive from one post well your right. We all took it the same way which makes it a little easier because it tells me that I didnt take it the wrong way. Im gonna make this real simple ... we gave you advise that your cycle sucks and so does your "guru" friend. Stop arguing about whos right because your not going to win this one. like its stated a couple of times you dont put on 10lbs and keep it all. figure with good post cycle you might keep 20-30% if your lucky. If you want to gain 10lbs then go eat burgerking Im sure that it'll stay on. Theres no need to flame the mods or the vets even the members infact theres no need to flame anyone. we all should remember that we werent born with a doctors in juice. its just the very few are having a hard time passing 1st grade. Its our job to help them, give them a hand like that one classroom in highschool were the learning disability kids gather. Maybe reading it might help a little. And I think that the 2 that are having a hard time might want to start a new user id for a clean slate.

Fast R

[r6guy]

I'd like to offer my 2 cents. I'm a novice by far. But I have done my research and I have read this board quite extensively for a month now. From my experience with the board, everyone here is pretty damn helpful. There is always something to say about putting in your dues. Why ask for advice if you're not going to listen and be arrogant about it? If you present yourself with the proper attitude, you'll get nice positive feedback. If you present yourself as MR. KNOW IT ALL NEWBIE, then you're going to be public jackass #1. That doesn't just apply here on this board, but it applies everywhere in life.


Bottom Line is: Do these guys get awesome results? Yes. They have learned through trial and error. I believe in listening to someone with actual experience rather than reading a book an author can just half-ass.

[r6guy]

one last thing

Xen - Did you bother to read http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...s=&threadid=92

Newbie Information, Message Board Guidelines, etc?

=)

[xenithon]

i'm afraid then that almost all took my comments the wrong way. please READ through the entire thread and find one place I diss a member, especially a vet.

off that topic....the reason i say winny/sus is 'heavy' is due to side effects. as i mentioned i came off antibiotics course for mild acne so i wanna stay away from those roids prone to that. also, my liver - i know winny/dianabol etc. are very heavy, eventhough they give great results. why do you say stay away from prima tabs? (honest questions, don't hit me on that too now ppl)

almost everything is available here. i just don't want to go on those 'heavy' roids i mentioned because it is my FIRST cycle, and i don't want to be hit hard with side effects. i also don't need to grow 25lbs, since i know usually a lot of that fades away, right?

all in all i am looking for 5-8kg lean mass to stay, with little water retention afterwards ie. not losing 4 kg of water 2 months later.

[The original jason]

5-8 kilos of lean mass is maybe what you might keep after u lost all the water from the 25lbs you dont want!! you dont lose 4k 2 months down the line the water retention eases pretty quick after your cycle and you will see what you are left with, personally I know I flamed alot but that was due to your attitude however I would suggest now then that you go with something like equipose which doesnt aromatise maybe a little but not enough to have mass water retention, winnie which ok is slightly harsh on the liver but will do what you want take milk thistel and cranberry juice with it and a small dose of test also I would add armidex to stop all water retention and any gyno this is how I would cycle it.

weeks 1-8
testoviron depot/test enanth 250/500mg per week( up to you)
equipose 400mg per week
armidex .5mg ed
weeks 3-8 winnie 50mg ed or eod (up to you)
milk thistle 500-1000mg ed
cranberry juice daily
weeks 10,11,12 clomid 50/100/50 thats mgs ed for each week.

where i wrote up to you it means eitehr would be ok I would go wioth the higher one in each case and i still wouldnt say its a high dose cycle. Depending on your diet, genetics, sleep, training you might gain and keep 8 kilos from this I would say the water retention will be low so what you would gain you could keep also I would do this to help keep your gains

weeks 9,10,11 primobolan depot 300mg per week
weeks 9,10 clenbuterol cycle

both these will help to keep your gains and not intefere with your post cycle recovery with clomid i wrote that thinking you can get anything like u said

hope that helps

peace
jason

[r6guy]

Originally posted by xenithon
i'm afraid then that almost all took my comments the wrong way. please READ through the entire thread and find one place I diss a member, especially a vet.

off that topic....the reason i say winny/sus is 'heavy' is due to side effects. as i mentioned i came off antibiotics course for mild acne so i wanna stay away from those roids prone to that. also, my liver - i know winny/dianabol etc. are very heavy, eventhough they give great results. why do you say stay away from prima tabs? (honest questions, don't hit me on that too now ppl)

almost everything is available here. i just don't want to go on those 'heavy' roids i mentioned because it is my FIRST cycle, and i don't want to be hit hard with side effects. i also don't need to grow 25lbs, since i know usually a lot of that fades away, right?

all in all i am looking for 5-8kg lean mass to stay, with little water retention afterwards ie. not losing 4 kg of water 2 months later.

Ok, I'm not going to argue all day about this, but it wasn't a diss, it was the attitude presented. Sometimes you just have to admit your faults.

As for your FIRST cycle - My first cycle didn't do me that good b/c i feared to be hit hard with side effects. 2nd cycle - I took 500mg of sus + 300mg of eq for 8 weeks , I barely had any side effects, from first hand experience. I'll leave it to the vets to recommend a cycle, BUT ---- If you're going to do it, do it right. Don't half-ass your cycle. Gain as much as possbile, you're 5'11 150 lbs. If you gain 25 lbs, and keep 15 lbs, that's better than gaining 10 lbs, and keeping 3? Is it not? (don't flame this, i'm not saying that will be the actual result, I'm just trying to make a point).

Have you been here? http://www.anabolicreview.com/main.htm

Read the "Cycles for the Novice" Section http://www.anabolicreview.com/cyclenov.htm

and pick the cycle you want. And if you're curious about exactly what the drug does, read the drug profile on them. I recommend printing everything out. http://www.anabolicreview.com/drugprof.htm

Lastly, print this out, this is a chart on each steroid's strength, weight gain, fat/water loss, anti-estrogen, side effects, and ability to keep gains.
http://www.anabolicreview.com/effect.htm

I did ALL OF THIS before EVER even posting my first post and all I got was constructive comments and "vets" commending me for doing my research before posting. So read, print, study, and then come back firing away with questions, and I think you'll be okay. Thank you and please come again. >=]

p.s. sorry everyone if I come off cocky as a newbie thinking he knows everything, that's not what I'm trying to present. I'm just trying to help this guy relate, newbie to newbie. But flame away if necessary. I can take it. *roid rage* grrrrrrrr =X

[Big Al]

Hey there a difference between a smart newbie and a cocky one, your post show research and knowledge, I doubt anyone will flame you for that.

Good Post

BA

[Billy Boy]

We are all here to help and to learn let,s keep it like that I,ve read the posts and Mikes is spot on lets sort out the main question out about the cycle.The pissy arguments are crap and I like 90% of the rest of the board do not wish to read this.

Last but not least show respect on here if you want to be respected you have to show it.Remember what goes around comes around.

Ah thats better......

Billy

[Mike]

good cycle jason - read that Xen - as for 'hard' drugs...if you mean they are "hard" in side effects - specifically acne - you need to research a little more - winny isn't 'hard' except on the liver

[AlexG]

ok im sorry if i came out as a mr smart ass im not loking for attention or anything nor do i think i know it all. If i offended someone my apology. The reason why i said that is cause Im shit scared of side effects. Im not a proffesional body builder nor do i wanna be one but there have been here a lot of bad cases from dianabol and sustanon too. Thats why i think (thats only my opinion dont flame pls) deca/prima would be fine for someone who doesnt really wanna put a lot of kilos, wants to do one course and keep side effects minimal. You gotta admit that from deca/prima chances of side effects are minimal (maybe im wrong).

[Mike]

yeah sides are minimal - so are gains - deca isnt much different than primo anyway - at any rate - you sound like a big man - thanks for not perpetuating the crap thats going on here

peace