2 questions

[FLOo]

ok i got two question, first one is wich is better to eat after morning cardio a pro and fat meal or a carb and protein meal ? The second one is that substituting my flax oil with some natural penut butter in one protien shake a day be bad on a cutting diet? and one more lol i dont like drinking my shakes with water i like using Soy milk is that a bad idea ?

[The TooL]

first question, if ya read the cutting stickey it would clearly state pro/fat would be ur best choice. 2nd no. 3rd not really but i wouldent do it.

[calidude]

Why don't you use regular milk?

[dalcowbag]

ne kind of milk is not good for a cutting diet IMO

DCB

[SwoleCat]

Yeah makin' shakes w/milk while "cutting" is not wise.


~SC~

[FLOo]

Thanks tool for clearing that up for me

[FLOo]

but why wouldnt you use the soy milk ?

[Mass Quest]

but why wouldnt you use the soy milk ?

milk=sugar

[rambo]

milk=sugar

sugar = bad*


*In this case.**

** Added to prevent someone from saying "nuh-uh" and quoting some pub-med article to prove how cool they are, and how dumb I am.

[Kim2884]

I know no one agrees with me on this, but just to put my 2 cents in...not all sugars are created equal, and I don't believe that milk is such a bad thing.

[calidude]

I never thought fat free milk was bad?

[bigsd67]

i will also say that i have eaten pro/carb for breakfast for 8 weeks and still have gotten really d@mn lean.

[SwoleCat]

In regards to the "sugars" not being created equal and such, sugar is sugar. If it's present, you won't burn fat for fuel, period. Lactose/dairy also bloats quite a few people WHILE cutting, thus not being such an "encouraging" supplement.

Try milk while cutting.

If you look how you wish, great! If you don't, take it out. Simple............

I can tell you that no one that I work w/who is serious utilizes dairy when it really matters.

You just don't do that, it's foolish. Then again, the company I'm with is not just your weekend warrior type, so I may be more serious about this than others who do not compete, take pics, post pics, have a rock hard physique, etc. Point is, if you want fast results and wish to eliminate any possible error from this, take it out. If not, then suck that milk up like an infant. U just gotta find your niche.

~SC~

[FLOo]

Soo you guys are saying unsweetened soy milk is just as bad as regular low fat milk? as far as sugars, i see on back of the box it shows it only has 1g of sugar, not sure why it would be bad .

[SwoleCat]

Once more, to take an already dead horse and further beat him into submission, I personally was referring to REGULAR AZZ MILK.

If you desire SOY in your diet, then drink it. I'll "steer" clear, no pun intended.

So, drink up!

~SC~

[rambo]

I know no one agrees with me on this, but just to put my 2 cents in...not all sugars are created equal, and I don't believe that milk is such a bad thing.

LOL. I knew you'd respond to my post. It's ok, Kim, I do see where you are coming from. It just doesn't agree with ME personally in my system. I don't train, like swole, so I can't vouch for others like him.

[bigsd67]

right now during my contest phase i have not had milk...then again i dont have much and i am hard as a rock...during my maintenance/bulker i may just have a little here and there to see how my body likes it.

[Kim2884]

In regards to the "sugars" not being created equal and such, sugar is sugar. If it's present, you won't burn fat for fuel, period. Lactose/dairy also bloats quite a few people WHILE cutting, thus not being such an "encouraging" supplement.

This, I can tell you with 100% certainty, is false (the first 2 statements anyway). "Sugars" are present everywhere, even in fibrous vegetables. Starch, the main component of staples like oatmeal, yams and brown rice, is really just chains of sugars linked together. The reason sugar should be avoided when cutting is because of its (usually) high GI value. However, many many factors contribute to a food's GI value, including what TYPE of sugar is present (for example, lactose and fructose have lower GI values than sucrose, and sucrose has a lower GI value than pure glucose), and also the amount of fiber, and the acidity of the food. Milk, in particular, and milk products like yogurt, are low GI because they consist of a low GI sugar (lactose) and also contain lactic acid. Yogurt contains so much of this because of the active bacteria converting lactose to lactic acid that it is VERY low GI, even with sucrose added. The commonly echoed refrain of "Sugars=bad" is not that cut and dry.

Also, the body burns a combination of carbohydrate AND fat for energy all the time, no matter what you are eating. It is true that high insulin levels make fat oxidation difficult and storage easy, but if the carbohydrates and sugars present in the diet are LOW GI, then the insulin levels will be low as well. The mere presence of glucose in the blood does not prohibit fat oxidation.

Now I can't speak for the effects of milk on a diet intended to prepare one for a contest, nor was I trying to before....pre-contest dieting is an entirely different animal. But for the general population of people trying to achieve or maintain a lean and fit physique, I do not believe there's any reason for milk to be forbidden.

[SwoleCat]

OH DEAR! CAPS BELOW...........

This, I can tell you with 100% certainty, is false (the first 2 statements anyway).

NEWSFLASH, LO SIENTO! THERE GOES YOUR 100% CERTAINTY. I DON'T MIND PEOPLE CONSTRUCTIVELY RESPONDING TO A THREAD, BUT TO SINGLE ME OUT AND SAY WHAT I PRESENTED WAS FALSE WILL OF COURSE BE ADDRESSED. I AM NOT BEING CONDESCENDING IN MY RESPONSES BELOW, BUT I AM POINTING OUT THE GENERIC REASONING THAT LEADS SO MANY TO DIETARY ERROR.

WE BEGIN:

IF SUGARS ARE IN THE BLOOD IN ANY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT, THEY WILL BE BURNED FIRST! WE CAN'T ARGUE SUGAR BEING THE BODY'S PREFERRED SOURCE OF FUEL, IT IS. AS WELL, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE FAT (HENCE THEY ARE DIETING) DO NEED TO CUT OUT AS MUCH SUGAR (OF WHATEVER KIND) DURING DIETING TO MAKE PURE FAT BURNING PROGRESS. I AM TALKING PURE FAT LOSS, NOT JUST "WEIGHT" LOSS, AS IS SEEN IN EQUAL MACRO-CALORIC REDUCTIONS LIKE "BODY FOR LIFE". YES PEOPLE CAN BURN FAT WHILE THERE IS SUGAR IN THE BLOOD, HOWEVER THERE HAS TO BE VERY, VERY, VERY LITTLE IF NONE AT ALL, AND ONE'S HEART-RATE MUST BE ELEVATED ENOUGH TO MOBILIZE/BURN THOSE FATTY ACIDS. (FAT) IN ADDITION, THE PEOPLE WHO CAN BURN FAT WHILE THERE IS SUGAR IN THE BLOOD, ARE THE MINORITY!! YOU NEED TO KEEP THAT IN MIND! IT'S WHY PEOPLE ARE FAT TO BEGIN WITH! OF COURSE THERE ARE "EXCEPTIONS" OR "FREAKS" THAT GET AWAY W/CRAZY TECHNIQUES, HOWEVER THOSE ARE FEW/FAR BETWEEN! SO WHILE YOU VIEW THE STATEMENT AS TOTALLY "FALSE", PERHAPS YOU MIS-UNDERSTOOD THE CONTEXT IT WAS CONTAINED WITHIN. (I.E., THE BIGGER PICTURE)


"Sugars" are present everywhere, even in fibrous vegetables.

OH DEAR GOD .............EXTREMELY DIFFERENT SUGARS HERE, THEY DON'T EVEN COUNT WHEN YOU FACTOR IN THE FIBER CONTAINED IN THE PRODUCT. WHAT FIBER IS THERE IN MILK? (ANSWER: NONE). SO WHILE "TECHNICALLY" VEGGIES HAVE SUGARS, THEY ARE SO NEGLIGIBLE THEY ARE ABOUT AS INFLUENCIAL AS FIBER, NOT ONLY ON GI (WHICH SEEMS TO BE YOUR FOCUS), BUT ALSO AS TO HOW MUCH ACTUAL GLUCOSE WILL BE IN THE BLOOD.

THEY ARE VERY LONG CHAIN, AND HAVE NO AFFECT ON BLOOD SUGAR. MILK, ALTHOUGH RELATIVELY MEDIUM GI IN NATURE, STILL DOES TO SOME DEGREE. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT INSULIN RESPONSE AND GI! LET ME STATE NOW THAT MY REASONING FOR NOT INCLUDING MILK IS NOT JUST CENTERED AROUND THE GI ISSUE! YOU SEEM TO BE HUNG UP ON THE GI FOR SOME REASON, AND YOU FOCUSED ON THAT, BUT THAT'S NOT THE REASON FOR THE EXCLUSION OF IT WHILE DIETING! THIS TUNNEL-VISION THINKING IS COMMON AMONG MANY, SO I'M NOT FLAMING YOU THERE, BUT IT GOES MUCH FURTHER THAN THAT.

COMPARE THE AMOUNT OF SUGARS IN A SERVING OF BROCOLLI TO THE AMOUNT OF SUGARS IN A SERVING OF MILK.

SHINING EXAMPLE:

BROCCOLI - ABOUT 2 GRAMS OF SUGAR.

MILK (OF ANY FAT) - 13 GRAMS OF SUGAR.

ANY MATH WIZARDS HERE IN THE HOUSE TONIGHT?

Starch, the main component of staples like oatmeal, yams and brown rice, is really just chains of sugars linked together.

NO KIDDING....I'M SURE WE ALL KNOW THAT, AT LEAST I'D HOPE.

The reason sugar should be avoided when cutting is because of its (usually) high GI value.

NOT THE ONLY REASON AT ALL, NO, BUT I'LL PLAY ALONG. I UTILIZE PURE SUGAR IN MY PROGRAMS, HOWEVER THERE IS A TIME/PLACE/REASON FOR EVERYTHING.

However, many many factors contribute to a food's GI value, including what TYPE of sugar is present (for example, lactose and fructose have lower GI values than sucrose, and sucrose has a lower GI value than pure glucose), and also the amount of fiber, and the acidity of the food.

AGAIN, YES WE KNOW THAT BUT GI IS NOT THE ONLY FOCUS OF WHY I DON'T LIKE TO INCLUDE MILK. YOU KEEP ARGUING THE GI POINT, BUT THAT'S PRETTY IRRELEVANT AFTER IT'S ADDRESSED ONCE.

Milk, in particular, and milk products like yogurt, are low GI because they consist of a low GI sugar (lactose) and also contain lactic acid. Yogurt contains so much of this because of the active bacteria converting lactose to lactic acid that it is VERY low GI, even with sucrose added. The commonly echoed refrain of "Sugars=bad" is not that cut and dry.

AGAIN W/THE GI, WHICH IS WHY PEOPLE STILL REMAIN FAT. CHECK OUT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IN ONE WERE TO EAT 2400 KCALS DAILY FROM LOW GI FOODS THINKING THAT WILL STILL BURN A LOT OF STORED BODYFAT, AND FOLLOW THAT ROUTINE. THEN SWITCH TO AN APPROACH MORE LIKE THE CUTTING STICKY ABOVE, AND SEE WHAT YOUR PHYSIQUE BEGINS TO TURN INTO. I THINK YOU'LL FIND THE RESULTS QUITE AMAZING, AND W/OUT ANY CARDIO AT ALL! IT IS NOT ALL ABOUT GI, BUT I DON'T HAVE TIME TO GO INTO ALL OF THAT AS IT'S MY WEEKEND!

IN DIETING FOR ABOUT 3/4 OF PEOPLE, SUGARS DO PLAY A VERY LARGE PART IN WEIGHT LOSS. IT'S VERY KEY TO TAKE THIS INTO ACCOUNT. I SPEAK FROM 4+ YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN ASSISTING PEOPLE. YOU CAN VISIT MY SITE IF YOU ARE UNSURE AS TO WHAT I DO. THE GOOGLE "SEARCH AND PASTE" INFO.(NOT IMPLYING YOU DID THAT, BUT I'M EXPRESSING THE GENERALISM OF THE POINTS YOU BROUGHT UP), IS KIND OF INSULTING WHEN WE FROM THE BOARD HERE WHO COMPETE/KNOW DIETING INSIDE/OUT ARE SPEAKING FROM EXPERIENCE. TO BE CALLED "WRONG" WHEN THERE IS SO MUCH MORE THE OTHER DOESN'T COMPREHEND DOESN'T ADD UP.

Also, the body burns a combination of carbohydrate AND fat for energy all the time, no matter what you are eating.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO SAY W/1OO& CERTAINTY THAT SOMETHING IS FALSE, THEN YOU SHOULD RE-READ YOUR STATEMENT ABOVE. "NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE EATING".......U SURE ABOUT THAT? A MOST SLIPPERY SLOPE STATEMENT AT BEST. EAT WHITE BREAD 24/7 AND TELL ME HOW MUCH FAT YOU BURN INSTEAD OF SUGAR. WON'T GET FAT BURNING RESULTS THAT WAY!

"BUT I DIDN'T MEAN YOU COULD EAT ANYTHING AT ALL" YOU MAY SAY? WELL, THAT'S THE SAME AS THE WAY IN WHICH I MEANT MOST PEOPLE SHOULD AVOID MILK. NOT ALL THE TIME, NO, BUT IT'S A GOOD IDEA TO DO SO IN TRYING TO GET RIPPED! IF THERE ARE VERY LITTLE SUGARS PRESENT, YOUR BODY WILL BURN FATTY ACIDS. IT'S ALL DEPENDENT UPON WHAT YOU INGEST, WHEN YOU EXERCISE, YOUR INSULIN SENSITIVITY, ETC. CARDIO AS WELL PLAYS A BIG ROLE IN FAT OXIDATION, HEART-RATE, ETC.

It is true that high insulin levels make fat oxidation difficult and storage easy, but if the carbohydrates and sugars present in the diet are LOW GI, then the insulin levels will be low as well.

FROM WHAT PEOPLE? YOU REALIZE WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT? YOU ARE PUTTING EVERYONE TOGETHER BY GIVING THEM THE SAME GLUCOSE RESPOSE AND BLOOD SUGAR LEVELS, INSULIN RESPONSE, ETC. THIS IS WHERE PEOPLE GO VERY WRONG IN THINKING! EVER HEARD OF CARB SENSITIVE PEOPLE, ECTO'S MOST OF THE TIME, ETC?? THIS IS WHERE I GET HUNG UP ON YOUR "ARGUMENT". YOU ARE SUGGESTING EVERYONE IS ALIKE, AND THAT JUST BECAUSE ONE EATS LOW GI CARBS, HE/SHE CAN PROCESS THEM W/OUT ANY HINDERANCES, AND THAT IS NOT REALITY.
(AGAIN, THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE/REALITY/DAILY ASSISTING IS WHAT I PULL FROM)

The mere presence of glucose in the blood does not prohibit fat oxidation.

YES IT DOES. (AGAIN AS W/THE WHITE BREAD AND MILK ARGUMENT, THERE WILL BE EXCEPTIONS AS W/ANY "FREAK", BUT FOR THE MAJORITY THIS IS INDEED TRUE, AND IT IS THE #1 CAUSE OF TRUE FAT LOSS HINDERANCE)
IT'S DEPENDENT ON YOUR INSULIN/PANCREAS RESPONSE AND THE LEVEL OF YOUR BLOOD SUGAR. YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT IS VERY FLAWED IN REASONING, AND IS NOT TRUE. SOME CAN HAVE GLUCOSE IN THE BLOOD (NOT A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT EITHER), AND BURN FATTY ACIDS, YES. SO AGAIN THE "TECHNICALITY" OF IT IS TRUE. HOWEVER, THE MAJORITY CANNOT DO THIS, AND THAT IS WHY THEY ARE FAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Now I can't speak for the effects of milk on a diet intended to prepare one for a contest, nor was I trying to before

BLAH, TO HECK W/PRE-CONTEST, THAT'S A GIVEN THAT YOU AVOID DAIRY. TRUST ME, ANYONE WHO SAYS OTHERWISE HAS NEVER COMPETED OR DIDN'T DO VERY WELL. I WON'T EVEN GO THERE W/PRE-CONTEST, BECAUSE UNLESS YOU HAVE COMPETED NUMEROUS TIMES, TAKEN PICS, PHOTOSHOOTS, ETC., THERE IS NO WAY TO SPEAK ON IT.

SO, DIETERS IN GENERAL: IF ONE IS MAKING SHAKES EVERYDAY WITH MILK WHILE CUTTING, IT'S AN ASSININE IDEA. TO EACH HIS OWN, BUT IT WILL HINDER PROGRESS FOR THE MAJORITY (THAT IS KEY), AND WON'T HELP TO BURN ONLY BODYFAT AND NOT JUST "WEIGHT" (FAT/MUSCLE/WATER).

....pre-contest dieting is an entirely different animal. But for the general population of people trying to achieve or maintain a lean and fit physique, I do not believe there's any reason for milk to be forbidden.

TO MAINTAIN PERHAPS, BUT EVEN THEN YOU'LL FIND THE MAJORITY HAVE A BETTER LOOK AND EASIER TIME STAYING LEAN/HARD W/OUT MILK.
TO CUT AND CONTINUE TO HAVE PROGRESS, I'D HAVE TO SAY TO LEAVE THE COW PISS ALONE. AGAIN, THIS IS DIRECTED AT THE MAJORITY OF THOSE WHO ARE OVER-WEIGHT LOOKING TO DROP PURE FAT AS QUICKLY AS THEY CAN. (AS I SAID, THERE WILL ALWAYS BE EXCEPTIONS, SO I AM NOT SAYING MY ADVICE IS THE END ALL TO IT ALL) HOWEVER, IT DOES INDEED APPLY TO THE MAJORITY OF THOSE WHO ARE OVERWEIGHT, YES!


KIM, AGAIN I MEANT NO OFFENSE BUT JUST WANTED TO OPEN THE DOORS OF CONVO EVEN MORE SO PEOPLE CAN UNDERSTAND. I DON'T WANT TO COME OF AS DEFENSIVE, BUT BEING THAT THERE IS SO MUCH THAT IS OVER-LOOKED HERE, IT'S HARD TO NOT TYPE AS SUCH. AS WELL, I DON'T BELIEVE WE'VE EVER SEEN ANY PICS, BUT I'D LIKE TO SEE SOME IF YOU HAVE THEM. W/YOUR EXTENSIVE DIETARY KNOWLEDGE AND CONFIDENCE, I BET YOU SPORT ONE OF THE BEST BODS ON A.R.! NOT CALLING YOU OUT, BUT IT'D BE GREAT TO SEE THE TANGIBLE ADVICE AND THE "PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH" ASPECT. PROVIDING PICTURES DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE RIGHT/WRONG, SO THAT IS NOT WHAT I MEAN. HOWEVER, IT DOES SERVE TO VALIDATE ONE'S KNOWLEDGE ON THE SAID SUBJECT, JUST AS PICS OF THOSE YOU HAVE HELPED WOULD DO ALSO! IF YOU HAVE THEM GREAT, IF NOT NO BIGGIE AT ALL. THANKS FOR THE DISCUSSION.

PEACE!

~SC~

[Hugh-Hefner's-Son]

LOL , the milk debate continues.......

[Kim2884]

I don't know why I bother...but I will attempt a brief rebuttle

#1: The reason I kept talking about GI is because I believe it is the most important factor to consider when choosing carbohydrate sources. And I believe it is more important than whether or not a type of sugar is present.
#2: Whatever your reasoning is for believing that fat oxidation cannot happen unless ther is no sugar in the blood (which I'm still not entirely clear on what that is), it goes against everything I have read or learned anywhere. It is true that the brain's preferred source of fuel is glucose, but there are many other metabolically active tissues in the body that primarily burn fat when the body is at rest, or lightly active. (This is why there is an "optimal fat burning zone" for doing cardio. As heart rate increases, the amount of fat utilized decreases, and the amount of carbohydrates used increases).
#3: When I talk about fat oxidation, I do not mean stored-fat loss. Obviously, one can oxidize fat for energy and then promptly replace it by eating a pizza an hour later. My point was that if all other aspects of proper diet and exercise are in place, fat loss can still result from a diet containing low-GI sugars.
#4: I did not mean to imply that everyone's insulin response is the same. I apologize if I was unclear. Each individual can handle a different amount of sugar. However, I would not agree that the MAJORITY of people cannot handle milk. Until there is a large-scale study on this, there will be no convincing me..(and please, spare me your anecdotes. While I appreciate your experience as a trainer and your observations of your clients, I am a skeptic and until someone can prove your hypothesis through a controlled, scientific study, I won't be swayed).

I do not have any pics right now, and I don't think I will ever be happy enough with my body to want to show it to people I don't know, but I can tell you this: I have tweaked my diet and exercise programs many times in the last 2 yrs, and after trying the low-carb thing, as well as the popular "AR approach," I decided to do what made the most sense to me. My diet consists of about 40%carb, 40%protein, and 20% fat. I eat fruit or yogurt, and sourdough bread almost everyday, and I occasionally have skim milk in the form of a cappuccino. I am leaner now than I have ever been, having dropped 17lbs and anywhere from 5-10% body fat (I don't really trust the instruments I use to measure it, so I can't be sure) since I started doing this, and if anything, increasing my carbs and allowing dairy in my diet has only helped me.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, Swole...I want you to know I do respect your opinion, and find you to be a worthwhile debate partner...I hope you give me the same respect. After spending so much time studying nutrition in classes, through my own research, and in my own life by trial and error, it's a little unsettling to be told that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.

Kim

[SwoleCat]

Agree to disagree is probably the best bet!

No one will win debating back/forth, and I simply don't have the time nor energy to do so on a subject that has been beaten to death.

Be well!

~SC~

[craneboy]

so leave out the milk

[SwoleCat]

so leave out the milk

You'd be wise to do so if you are after expedient results w/as little room for error as possible, yes.

~SC~