Anabolic Member
Can you lower your red blood cell count by donating blood?
I don't think that works.
The reason I ask is...
If you have a glass of salty water and you pour out half the glass, then there is less salt water in the glass; BUT, the salt water that remains contains the same amount of salt per cubic centimeter. So I don't see how donating blood will lower the RBC count.
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 10-20-2004 at 11:06 PM.
Anabolic Member
yeah it seems like the concentration would be the same, just less blood overall.
VET
you are correct. it's measured in x10e6 / uL (millionth / cubic milimeter) - range being 4.10 - 5.60
AR-Elite Hall of Famer
I say yes. But i know you are wanting research/evidenceOriginally Posted by BASK8KACE
Let me see what i can dig up
Anabolic Member
LOL How'd you read my mind?I say yes. But i know you are wanting research/evidence
Actually, research/evidence would be very helpful. If you find something, please post it.
AR-Elite Hall of Famer
Polycythemia vera is an abnormal increase in blood cells (primarily red blood cells)
Treatment
The objective of treatment is to reduce the high blood viscosity (thickness of the blood) due to the increased red blood cell mass and to prevent hemorrhage and thrombosis.
Phlebotomy is one method used to reduce the high blood viscosity. In phlebotomy, 1 unit (pint) of blood is removed weekly until the hematocrit is less than 45, then phlebotomy is continued as necessary.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/000589.htm
Retired Moderator
Good stuff.
VET
but i think the reason that would work is they take a pint every week. RBC's don't regenerate quick enough to a stable state - at least a few weeks.
VET
if you want to lower your RBC, then you could always get an infection of some sort :
When the body is fighting off infection, it will lower red blood cell count so that the infection doesn't have a transporter (hemoglobin) to make the infection worse. So if you have bacteria, the last thing you want to do right now is build up your blood. You have to kill off the infection first.
AR-Elite Hall of Famer
I think you are looking too deep into the question at hand Key, lol. The hiv you got wasnt a good deal from MBH.
simple formula i think is: Hemocrit=red blood cell volume/total volume
The original ? was: "Can you lower your red blood cell count by donating blood?"
Answer is yes, Phlebotomy is one method used to reduce volume, therefore reducing RBC count....
VET
i know, i am looking to deep into the question. my answer still remains the same :
volume will lower, as will total over all RBC.....BUT....RBC per cubic millimeter will not change.
AR-Elite Hall of Famer
Phlebotomy has been one of the most common initial therapies for many polycythemic patients. There has been a lot of experience with it. The purpose of phlebotomy is to reduce the red blood cell mass (RBC mass)-that is, the total number of circulating red blood cells, and to do it fairly quickly, at least in the beginning when the hematocrit (Hct) is high.
The blood in your normal circulation contains red blood cells and plasma. Normally the red blood cell mass is 40 to 45 percent of the blood and the other 60 percent is plasma. The hematocrit (Hct) is the percentage of red blood cells in the blood relative to plasma. Normal amounts of red blood cells in the circulation are 1800cc (60 oz, about 4 pints) in women and 2200 cc (72 ozs, about 4.5 pints) in men. The rest of the blood volume is made up of plasma (liquid) and is about 2400 cc (80 oz or about 5 pints).
Phlebotomy is a rapid way of reducing the increased red blood cells down to normal levels. When red cells are removed by phlebotomy about 400-450cc (one pint) of blood) is removed, of which approximately 60 percent are red blood cells (about 300 cc). The body only makes about 17 cc (½ oz) of red blood cells a day, so in a normal individual it would take about one month to make up for one phlebotomy under normal conditions. The rate at which polycythemia vera patients regenerate can vary.
Since red blood cells are made so slowly, rapid changes in the blood volume (RBC plus plasma) are accomplished by changes in the plasma which are controlled by the kidney, as plasma is mostly water. The blood volume is adjusted by the body to maintain an adequate blood pressure. When the blood volume falls quickly, as in bleeding, the body gets a signal to increase the amount of fluid that is circulating. That is why an early sign of blood loss is thirst.
After phlebotomy, as the blood increases its plasma content, the hematocrit falls, so the red blood cells are now diluted. The benefit of reducing the hematocrit(Hct) is to get the blood to a normal consistency (viscosity), as the heart and blood vessels are designed to pump and hold a fluid close to the viscosity of water, not oil. You can imagine what would happen if you filled your water tank and plumbing system with motor oil instead of water.
Once the blood volume is replete and the viscosity of the blood is normal, the red blood cells can fulfill their function of oxygen delivery to the tissues much better. The red blood cells have a fantastic capacity to increase their oxygen delivering ability by many adaptive mechanism so that, with the proper compensations in fluid replacement, your body should not be deprived of adequate circulation or oxygen.
Anabolic Member
I know doctors do this and even take out like a pint a week until you are at normal levels. They also sometimes resort to this same method to reduce excessive levels of lead, arsonic and other metals from the blood. Also think about it, you remove red blood cells, the liquid volume (total pints of blood) quickly returns to the same level after you have a few glasses of water but there is a pint's worth less of red blood cells.
Anabolic Member
The part highlighted in red (above) makes all the difference and is EXACTLY what I was looking for.
So, consider the example of the salt water in a glass that I described in my first post. According to what Vette has posted, the body essentially pours pure water (plasma) back into the glass (circulation system) to compensate for the salt water (blood) that was poured out. Therefore, the concentration of salt (red blood cells) per volume of pure and salt water combination (blood and new plasma) is less. Perfect!
Vette,
Thank you for going the extra mile to post this information! That was very helpful. I actually turned on my computer specifically to check this thread and to start looking for blood donor spots in my area.
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 10-21-2004 at 02:07 PM.
Anabolic Member
One more question...
Does anyone know how long it takes the body to add more plasma to compensate for the pint of blood drawn during donation?
BTW...during my research on this topic, I found that red blood cells live for aprroximately 120 days (4 months). So, if you find that your RBC count is high, then you will have to stay off steroids for at least 4 months until your RBC count begins to normalize--that is if you choose to decrease the RBC count naturally, without using blood thinning drugs or phlebotomy.
Anabolic Member
Phlebotomy can cause you to loose dietary iron, so might want to take iron. Well its like this, 100% of your piss is extracted from your blood. Ever do a lot of sweating on a hot day, drink gallons of water and not need to take a piss? Anyways every drop you drink is absorbed and travels your blood stream. I would imagine all you need to do is take a 32 ounce soda or plenty of water and 20 mins after drinking it, you have restored your blood volume. It doesnt take long, very fast. Only time water you drink is not absorbed and travel thru your blood stream is when you have diarreah.
Anyways I heard it is good to at least donate once a year because things like lead, mercury, arsonic that you might have absorbed in the environment is very slow and difficult to get out of your system, but by donating blood, you leech a portion of this stuff out by the bleed so it can be beneficial to lower your bad heavy metals. You do need one metal, iron so take supplements a least for a week after the dontation. Also another thing that happens is your donated pint also removes HDL cholesterol from your body.
Last edited by Ntpadude; 10-21-2004 at 02:21 PM.
Anabolic Member
[QUOTE=BASK8KACE
If you have a glass of salty water and you pour out half the glass, then there is less salt water in the glass; BUT, the salt water that remains contains the same amount of salt per cubic centimeter. So I don't see how donating blood will lower the RBC count.[/QUOTE]
But if you fill that glass back up with just water you will have one half of the original concentration of salt.
Anabolic Member
Thx. I still would like to know how fast the body creates the plasma to compensate for the blood loss.
I don't think I have to worry about the iron loss, etcetera because I'm not having a formal phlembotomy (weekly blood extractions). I'm just going to donate a pint of blood once (possibly twice) in order to decrease my RBC count a bit.
Anabolic Member
Thanks for your response.But if you fill that glass back up with just water you will have one half of the original concentration of salt.
That's exactly what I said in post #15.
BTW, my first example only mentions pouring out the water--not adding additional water.
If you respond to the thread or deem it necessary to correct someone, please have the courtesy to read through the entire thread before you post.
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 10-21-2004 at 02:38 PM.
King of Supplements
You could also use lovenox to lower rbc, there is also another you can use to lower rbc but it a diiluted rat poison. I have used these to lower rbc count, i had blood clots when i was in a coma so they made me take it afterwards to make sure i didn't have any more blood clots. Alot of old people use these meds to lower rbc as well.
Member
B I had a very high blood count at one time the doc told me I needed to donate blood. He also said because of the test I needed to donate blood. Weird because I was told by my endocrin to donate blood also. After that I am a regular contributer and it keeps my HDL in check and my RBC.
That's just my personal experience. I didn't know about the other stuff that was posted.
Anabolic Member
Rat poison. Now that sounds...well...um...That's not the route I'd take LOL.
Thanks, NSA. I try not to throw a drug at every issue, so I was looking for a simple non-drug method.
I'm curious. Did you get the lovenox by prescription or by underground lab, etcetera? Could you imagine a source bragging about his over dosed lovenox?
Anabolic Member
I'm with you... considering doing the same and since I just had a physical 2-3 weeks ago and the doctor brought up blood donation, I am still fresh on all the good things he suggested about it. Didnt think I was at risk of heart attack but still I am about 5% thicker blooded then normal range. Also strange to me is my white blood cell count as equally above range and so where the platelete count. Just all around the blood is too thick, I need to get rid of a pint and dilute it down some. But anyways the high white blood cell count - now I understand why I have such a vigorous immune system.
Anabolic Member
There is another thing too... lots of guys gave been posting messages from time to time asking about why do their arms tingle or go to sleep on you when sleeping at night. I asked my doctor and I was told that was a DIRECT SYMPTOM that your blood is too thick, donate a pint of blood, if it doesnt go away, 2 weeks later, donate again and the tingling, pins and needles arms while you are sleeping at night should go away and return to normal.B I had a very high blood count at one time the doc told me I needed to donate blood. He also said because of the test I needed to donate blood. Weird because I was told by my endocrin to donate blood also. After that I am a regular contributer and it keeps my HDL in check and my RBC.
That's just my personal experience. I didn't know about the other stuff that was posted.
VET
this was on a blood drinking website :
It is true that plasma begins to regenerate within a few hours, but red blood cell production takes at least a few weeks. Red blood cells do not reproduce fast enough to replace a pint taken more often than every 56 days. While blood loss may stimulate red blood cell production, rushing this process results in inferior or weak red blood cells which are too fragile to function properly.
Senior Member
WHAT? I get that all the time and I assure you that my RBC is completely normal.
It's called nerve impingement. It MAY be brought on by increased RBC, but there are many physiological reasons for it.
Anabolic Member
OK what is nerve impingement? I asked my doctor about the tingling arms and donate blood is what I got.
To tell the truth, I HATE to see blood... I dont know if I can stand to donate a pint.... the only reason I can shoot myself with steroids is because most of the time I dont see a drop of blood. Just the sight of blood makes me light headed and dizzy, so tell me what this is so I dont have to go endure the nightmarish hell of donating a pint of blood!!
Anabolic Member
Please post that link. LOL
Anabolic Member
It means "pinched a nerve", "bumped a nerve", "struck a nerve"...
Anabolic Member
Thanks to everyone for the great responses. My questions on blood donation have been answered.
Last edited by BASK8KACE; 10-21-2004 at 03:23 PM.
Senior Member
good luck bask8kace
AR Vet / Retired
geez vette..why did you tease him along for so many posts. you could have just said...plasma is made faster than RBC's
btw..Ive done it a few times when my count got higher than I cared for, works well.
Member
This is ridiculous and dangerous advice. Heparin (lovenox) and warfarin (rat poison) do not lower your blood count, they inhibit coagulation. So if you want to bleed out of every oriface, go ahead and try that to "lower your blood count".
As to the original poster, yes, donating blood is the quickest and easiest way to lower RBC. For every unit you donate, your Hgb will drop ~ 1 g/dL.
Replenishment of blood volume begins immediately through the process of transcapillary refill, fluid from the intersitial space moves into the vasculature. At the same time, hormonal feedback mechanisms will tell the kidneys to conserve fluid. Within hours your blood volume will be restored to normal.
Anabolic Member
longhornDr,
Thank you for this information and the warning.
Are you a doctor? (Some members use Doc or Doctor in their name and are not, that's why I'm asking).
From where did you get the approximation of 1 g/dL drop in Hgb per unit of blood donated?
Member
It's a clinical rule of thumb, numerous factors can affect it, but that is on average what I see in the hospital and in the lab.
Anabolic Member
How did you RBC count get high BASK8KACE? Is this a direct result of juice or genetic predisposition?
Anabolic Member
I'm on HRT. My doctor has determined that my high RBC count is a result of staying on HRT approximately year round. As a result he has lowered my dose from 200mg per week approximately 100mg ever other week.
It is not a genetic predisposition. It is a direct result of using testosterone.
VET
this is inccorrect, BV will return within hours- RBC count will take a week or more (will have to look)
VET
ahh. already answered correctly
Junior Member
Since this is in the realm of the topic I will ask. I know they put you through a few screening questions when you donate blood, mostly for AIDS concerns, but would there not be concerns about donating blood while a person is on AAS?
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