Juice for a junkie?

[Seaoro693]

My buddy is getting over a heroin abuse problem. One of the things that has helped him has been working out with me over the past few months. Lately he has been curious about AS and has been asking me questions and we have talked it over a bit. At first I was questioning the fact that should someone with obvious disregard for their health in the past and highly addictive personality should be doing AS at all. But it could also be good for him for the reason that it could spring his wasted muscles into shape and give him something to take his mind off heroin. I also figure that if I dont guide him in the right direction he could hurt himself, if he dosent get it from me he is going to get it from someone else and they might give him bad gear or bad info. He is also currently on methadone therapy and was wondering if this would have any interactions with juice? I would also appreciate any input you guys might have. Thanks Peace

[Pete235]

Good post bro...I'm gonna leave this up because there are some great bros here who are part of AA and/or NA who may be able to help. Just be patient as they log on at differen't times because of differen't time zones.

[the original jason]

hmm well to be honest when I was on a methadone script last thing I had motivation for was working out its just the same as heroin. I didnt ever consider working out till about 3 years after i was abstinent from all mood altering chemical and didnt conisder juicing till way after that too so I havent got exact experience with the situation but what I do know about is aas and addiction and I know about meth and gear habits. I dont know about contradictions with the juice and the meth but this is my take this may be ur friend but you have to look at some harsh realities here being on methadone is not clean and chances are he will still have a beer or a joint thinking its cool, addiction doesnt work like that it all leads back to drug of choice "heroin" There is no half measures and addicts are very deceiving no shit I thought I could convince anyone of anything so you might not be getting the full story of whatever story you are getting about anything. Really I dont think its a good idea right now but what I do think is this you make some suggestions like find an NA group in your area im on the other side of the world but pm me your location im sure I can find you one in your town. Then go there start to realise what addiction is all about they wont agree with aas but thats another story I feel like its not so much a mood altering chemical and personally i feel ok with it I plan my cycles and dont do them addictively and dont steal or lie to get the juice like I used to and so far its not causing me any problems but some people are different I had alot of years of abstinence before I started juice so I would think straight from H to AAS is not a good thing cos u need to get in touch with yourself before you just shift addictions from one substance to another any way I could write all night pm me if you need anything

peace
jason

[Mr. Fina]

Wow, a very ethical question.

[TNT]

For a first time post, bro, you've gotten into an interesting area.

There are a couple of variables on which your original post did not touch. They include the usual questions about your buddy's stats - age, height, weight, physical condition, any underlying medical conditions, etc. They also include a background on your experience with AS - namely, you are 20 years old, so I have to raise the question of whether you are in a position in terms of knowledge and experience to, as you expressed so well, "guide him in the right direction."

Don't take this wrong, bro, but my take is that you are not in that position. The scenario you have described is a common one here at A.R., although it is not usually put in terms of an addiction. It's usually put in terms of an illness on the part of a family member, often a senior citizen or someone with other complicating medical conditions.

My answer in this scenario is the same that I would give someone in the situatiosn I have described above: It's obvious that you care about this guy and his welfare. But you are not in a position to be prescribing, and that is what you would, in effect, be doing. If he's on methadone, then he's still addicted - remember, methadone is merely a legal substitute for heroin addiction (and heroin, to give you a little drug histroy, was originally a legal substitute for morphine addiction). Would AS do him some good, especially with regard to the wasting that accompanies addiction to smack? Possibly, but your direct involvement would skew your judgment in this issue, much as a shrink would never counsel a friend or family member.

At 20, I have concerns about how familiar you are with the psychology of addiction itself. Addicts are usually (not just sometimes, but almost all the time) manipulators; those that they manipulate are enablers. Sit back for a second and do a reality check: Remember, not ony are you not a physician, you are also not a trained substance abuse counselor.

You referred to his "wasted muscles," but did not specify the extent of this problem - namely, whether it is significant enough to be considered what used to be called wasting syndrome. If he has any significant wasting, the next question that comes up is his HIV status (keeping in mind that heroin addicts often share needles, and that demographically, HIV is very prevalent among drug abusers). If he has never been checked out for this, I would certainly encourage him to do so - although not curable, HIV is treatable.

You have written, "If he dosent get it from me he is going to get it from someone else and they might give him bad gear or bad info." In theory, you concern is justified. It's the same principle from which many of us operate when it comes to young people using AS - we advise against it, but we recognize that many will do it anyway. So we provide information that will allow them to do whatever they choose to do in an informed manner. The same principle applies to needle exchange programs and condom distribution in the schools. People are gonna shoot up and boink each other despite anyone's efforts to the contrary.

But the question I need to ask here is, who came up with the idea of your buddy doing AS in the first place? Him? Or you? Or some other bozo at the gym who doesn't know your buddy's background, perhaps some pro-AS evangelist from the wacky world of roids? You see, everyone is an individual, and AS will do good for some - but not for others. And AS is not an area in which the typical multi-level marketing sales pitch of, "Gee, I don't know how it works, but I loved it, and you will to!" will not cut it.

My take is that if your buddy gets into AS now, he will merely be trading one addiction for another. We do occasionally see people here on A.R. for whom the act of injecting is a high in itself. Granted, it's not an addiction per se in terms of going through withdrawal if you don't get your dose of a narcotic drug, but it does reflect the same type of addictive personality.

Bottom line: You're dealing with an area which has lots of potential complications, and you're not in a position to play guru on this one. You are far too close to the situation, probably inexperienced in terms of playing shirpa/guide let alone having a comprehensive knowledge of AS, and are probably being used by this guy (whether he is aware of it or not - there is a codependency thing that enters into this type of picture).

Do you care about your buddy? Sure you do. But that's all the more reason to pull back and realize that this is best left to medical experts and, yes, addictions counselors who will not fall for a subtle manipulation rap.

P.S. Re-read The Original Jason's post in this thread. He speaks from experience, and I concur with everything he said.

[Dr.Evil]

interesting feedback.

[latman49]

I think the advice from people who hav lived through this situation is the best, but allow me to throw in my two cents worth. I am a student studying psycho-pharmacology(graduating in May)so I know alot of things about chemical dependence in theory. Many drugs,including some AS, stimulate the same Neuroreceptors in the brain, just differently. That is why Methadone is used as a treatment, without it withdrawal would be too severe. You have to be careful what drugs you take because the wrong one could lead to a relapse. Another problem is cross tolerance. When your body builds a tolerance to herion(which is an opiate), it also builds a tolerance to any drug in that class and others with similar properties. That means you can become addicted to a drug you never use. Pain killers/relaxers like Nubain or Valium would be very bad for your friend. Also, AS that contain Lidocaine or other Pain killers, such as Esiclene, would be immediate hooks. Keep him away from stimulants too. Things like Clen could cause problems. The best thing for your friend to do is consult a psychiatrist(not a psychologist) and have him talk to him about this. More than likely any respectable psychiatrist will shoot the idea down. Better safe than sorry. Jason's got the right idea, WAIT, WAIT, and WAIT some more before doing anything.

[Dizzy]

It's advice like this, from mods and members like these, that makes me glad I chose this board. Big up.

[bigwillster]

Got to give up for the MODS. Great advice bros!

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by The Original Jason
hmm well to be honest when I was on a methadone script last thing I had motivation for was working out its just the same as heroin. I didnt ever consider working out till about 3 years after i was abstinent from all mood altering chemical and didnt conisder juicing till way after that too so I havent got exact experience with the situation but what I do know about is aas and addiction and I know about meth and gear habits. I dont know about contradictions with the juice and the meth but this is my take this may be ur friend but you have to look at some harsh realities here being on methadone is not clean and chances are he will still have a beer or a joint thinking its cool, addiction doesnt work like that it all leads back to drug of choice "heroin" There is no half measures and addicts are very deceiving no shit I thought I could convince anyone of anything so you might not be getting the full story of whatever story you are getting about anything. Really I dont think its a good idea right now but what I do think is this you make some suggestions like find an NA group in your area im on the other side of the world but pm me your location im sure I can find you one in your town. Then go there start to realise what addiction is all about they wont agree with aas but thats another story I feel like its not so much a mood altering chemical and personally i feel ok with it I plan my cycles and dont do them addictively and dont steal or lie to get the juice like I used to and so far its not causing me any problems but some people are different I had alot of years of abstinence before I started juice so I would think straight from H to AAS is not a good thing cos u need to get in touch with yourself before you just shift addictions from one substance to another any way I could write all night pm me if you need anything

peace
jason

Jason my brother you are indeed a hero for me, check your PM's bro.

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by Dizzy
It's advice like this, from mods and members like these, that makes me glad I chose this board. Big up.

Yes, the quality of MODS on AR is outstanding and this thread really shows why AR is the best board on the net. This is not only just an AS board, but a true community that has a family feel to it. Everyday that I post I seem to get to know and understand the regulars here and grow to like them more each day.

I'm proud to be an AR supporter, especially when threads like this come up and I'm proud to be associated with most of the people on this board.

[the original jason]

That is why Methadone is used as a treatment, without it withdrawal would be too severe. You have to be careful what drugs you take because the wrong one could lead to a relapse

I have to disagree here methadone is the worst goverment money making drug I have ever seen addiction to methadone I would say is about 10x worse than addiction to heroin due to withdrawal being so severe and prolonged, if I could give any advice about "physical" addiction to a junkie it would be NO MATTER WHAT dont take methadone and the 2 nd line about you have to be carefull which ones cos the wrong one could lead u to a relapse well this I stated above its not which ones any its ANY SUBSTANCE that affects even alcohol my experience tells me that anyone not fully surrendering to addiction will never have the chance to recover that means abstinence and then learn about yourself any junkie can manipulate heres a typical line

" Oh if i just take 2 of these and 1 of them but with 3 hrs in between and if i have a glass of water with them and only use on a friday ill be ok"

" just take the blue valiums not the white ones and you wont be addicted so bad!!"

" I will just have a beer on a friday and not in the week!!"

soon friday becomes 3 days into the next week and addiction is looming again its a never ending vicious circle

I could go on for ever about this

peace
jason

[tryingtogetbig]

I just keep learning and learning from you guys. I consider myself fairly intellegent, I am well educated, but I don't know how I would have answered that question. Very nice advice.

seaoro69, remember the advice that we receive is not always what we want to hear, but that doesn't make it the wrong advice. Good luck to you with your friend. I know these guys would say this also, they might have already and I missed it, definitely keep your bro in the gym working hard, regardless of AR or not. Sounds like you already have that part figured out though. Again, good luck to you!

peace,

cp

[Seaoro693]

Wow guys I never thought i would have gotten such a huge responce on this topic. Have been just hanging in the shadows of this board over the last few years. You guys never cease to amaze me with your knowlege and heartfelt responces. Thanks to all who responded. Posted this topic on another board and got a really , to say the least careless sugestion. This guy said to give him a vial with sterial water in it and let him inject that. Thanks again guys.

[tryingtogetbig]

You seem like a very intellegent young man. Good luck to you!

[Seaoro693]

With the responces coming to a stand still. i just want to take a moment to thank again all those who replied. I do now feel as though my best bet is to try to discourage my friends idea to do a cycle and to encorage him to keep training naturally. He hasnt really done any regular sups so hopefully hell get some good gains off some creatine or glutamine or something. There is a local natural comp comming up I think its the mid of next month I'll probly bring him back stage and have him talk to some of the competetors. So he can learn that it can be acheved without drugs.
thanks guys peace

[Canes4Ever]

Originally posted by Seaoro693
With the responces coming to a stand still. i just want to take a moment to thank again all those who replied. I feel as though my best bet is to try to discourage my friends idea to do a cycle and to encorage him to keep training naturally. He hasnt really done any regular sups so hopefully hell get some good gains off some creatine or glutamine or something. There is a local natural comp comming up I think its the mid of next month I'll probly bring him back stage and have hom talk to some of the competetors. So he can learn that it can be acheved without drugs.
thanks guys peace

Sounds like a good idea, but we know how "natural" most of the natural guys really are.....(cough cough).

[Terinox]

Great thread and some damn good responses! Good luck with your situation! I like the supplements idea. Before he goes anywhere near AS, try to get him to eat a lot of food and get into protein shakes, creatine, glutamine. Hopefully this stuff will take his mind off AS and he will be more dedicated to BB