HCG for all those who are curious

[bignatt]

The Axis



The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body’s natural production of testosterone . Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response. LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed. Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.



Testicular Desensitization


Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks. Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started. This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.


Post-Cycle LH Levels


Post Cycle Testosterone Levels



Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.



The Role of Anti-estrogens


It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher. Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens. Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.



HCG


So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin , is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.



Finalizing the Program


An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2) , which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 300-500IU weekly.This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone. This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added ( my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)). Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.



Sample Post-cycle Plan:


last week of cycle: 300-500IU HCG total 2x week + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 2: 300-500IU HCG total 2x week + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 3: 300-500IU HCG total 2x week + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily



In Closing


I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back. In fact, we see that LH doesn’t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.

[Stout1]

did you write this?

[calidude]

GREAT POST. I think we should sticky this.

[KINGKONG]

everything is straight except the post cycle plan should be the pre-cycle plan
then hit the clomid....

[bignatt]

this was another article that was written the dosages were off so kingpin and i discussed what we thought the doses should be and i modified the article

[bignatt]

i have seen alot of hcg questions and through searching through the forumsi noticed there really wasnt much info

[KINGKONG]

i have seen alot of hcg questions and through searching through the forumsi noticed there really wasnt much info

natt hcg is one of those things that nobody really knows how to use perfect..
It depends on too many things...But keep trying will get as close as we can..
later

[Stout1]

natt hcg is one of those things that nobody really knows how to use perfect..
It depends on too many things...But keep trying will get as close as we can..
later

I dont get this? How does it depend on too many things? Easy and most effective way to run HCG is to run it while you are ON. Run it the last 1/2 or the last 1/3 of a cycle. Run HCG all the way up until 3 days before PCT.

Run it at 250iu's or 500iu's, 2X a week. This will be a low enough dose so that it doesnt aromatize and enough and at a long enough of a duration that you will bring your balls back and keep them. So that way when you start PCT its that much easier on ya.

[KINGKONG]

I dont get this? How does it depend on too many things? Easy and most effective way to run HCG is to run it while you are ON. Run it the last 1/2 or the last 1/3 of a cycle. Run HCG all the way up until 3 days before PCT.

Run it at 250iu's or 500iu's, 2X a week. This will be a low enough dose so that it doesnt aromatize and enough and at a long enough of a duration that you will bring your balls back and keep them. So that way when you start PCT its that much easier on ya.

and that is the perfect way to run Hcg...well last week it was something diff
all I was trying to say is that as technology advances...There might be a new best way to run hcg next week...so stop busting my balls...

[KINGKONG]

I dont get this? How does it depend on too many things? Easy and most effective way to run HCG is to run it while you are ON. Run it the last 1/2 or the last 1/3 of a cycle. Run HCG all the way up until 3 days before PCT.

Run it at 250iu's or 500iu's, 2X a week. This will be a low enough dose so that it doesnt aromatize and enough and at a long enough of a duration that you will bring your balls back and keep them. So that way when you start PCT its that much easier on ya.

Iam just saying the concensus on hcg has changed forty times over the years
so how do you know that is perfect for his body?Thanks for the advice

[KINGKONG]

I dont get this? How does it depend on too many things? Easy and most effective way to run HCG is to run it while you are ON. Run it the last 1/2 or the last 1/3 of a cycle. Run HCG all the way up until 3 days before PCT.

Run it at 250iu's or 500iu's, 2X a week. This will be a low enough dose so that it doesnt aromatize and enough and at a long enough of a duration that you will bring your balls back and keep them. So that way when you start PCT its that much easier on ya.

Iam just saying the concensus on hcg has changed forty times over the years
so how do you know that is perfect for his body?Thanks for the advice

[KINGKONG]

I dont get this? How does it depend on too many things? Easy and most effective way to run HCG is to run it while you are ON. Run it the last 1/2 or the last 1/3 of a cycle. Run HCG all the way up until 3 days before PCT.

Run it at 250iu's or 500iu's, 2X a week. This will be a low enough dose so that it doesnt aromatize and enough and at a long enough of a duration that you will bring your balls back and keep them. So that way when you start PCT its that much easier on ya.

Iam just saying the concensus on hcg has changed forty times over the years
so how do you know that is perfect for his body?Thanks for the advice

[bubbaboy]

biggnatt, you have got your **** together, and have a great knowledge base. one question 300-500 iu of hcg twice a week? pdr's recomend 1500-2500 iu's 3 times a week for aquired hypogonadic hypogonadism. which is the dx. for testicular shutdown from using anabolics.i personaly used this regimine for 2 months after 10 years of on-off use. my wife got pregnant in the second month. i think your dosage is a bit low. i used the hcg with nolv. and switched from hcg to clomid after my wife became pregnant.istayed off another 3 months and only lost 8 lbs. i agree with you that you should only use hcg when off, since you do desensitize to it.my sperm count after the 2 months of hcg use was 30 million per ml. the majic number needed is 20 million. please let me know what you think. thanks bubbaboy.

[Stout1]

Written by Swale; a Hormone Replacement Doc:

"I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Thought this would shed a little light on all the HCG questions during cycle."

[bignatt]

Written by Swale; a Hormone Replacement Doc:

"I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid -induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex , is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM?s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel , or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a ?bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can?t ?fool? the body?it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground?and we don?t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Thought this would shed a little light on all the HCG questions during cycle."

If you ran hcg for your whole ycle you could desensitize your testicles permanently it is not a smart idea.

[Stout1]

If you ran hcg for your whole ycle you could desensitize your testicles permanently it is not a smart idea.

Says who? I know that a HRT Doc prescribes this way to run it and plenty of mods, vets, well respected people run their HCG protocol this way. It is the smartest and most sensible way to run it. How can it not be.

go check out www.sculptedbyiron.com Tell EVERYONE of their members over there that run it this way that they will shut their self down permanately and see what they say.

Go out and venture out of AR for a little bit. Sign up at some boards and see what you are missing out on. You will find out that there is alot of info that you are missing here with all the stuff thats here cluttering it up.

[bignatt]

Says who? I know that a HRT Doc prescribes this way to run it and plenty of mods, vets, well respected people run their HCG protocol this way. It is the smartest and most sensible way to run it. How can it not be.

go check out www.sculptedbyiron.com Tell EVERYONE of their members over there that run it this way that they will shut their self down permanately and see what they say.

Go out and venture out of AR for a little bit. Sign up at some boards and see what you are missing out on. You will find out that there is alot of info that you are missing here with all the stuff thats here cluttering it up.

Listen pal i do venture out of AR heres a few links that say that you chouldnt use hcg for so long because it can desensitize your testicles:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathcg.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jon13.htm

[bignatt]

Another thing to you cant listen to someone just because there a respected bro you should do some research before listening to anyone cause ive seen some dudes on this board with over 2000 posts and they still dont know what the hell they are talking about

[Stout1]

Another thing to you cant listen to someone just because there a respected bro you should do some research before listening to anyone cause ive seen some dudes on this board with over 2000 posts and they still dont know what the hell they are talking about

****, you are killing me here. Post count dont mean ****. I dont care if you got 500000000000000000000000000 posts or 1 post. You can tell who knows there **** and who doesnt just by talking to them. You can post you want about www.bodybuilding.com

HAVE YOU EVER WENT THERE??? LMAO!!!! That place is a joke. Go to there forums and see what they know. But like I said..........


www.sculptedbyiron.com is a VERY VERY reputable board. If you are not so scared go over there and post for awhile and learn. You might pick up something outside of AR. What do you have to lose. SERIOUSLY!!! Dont get caught up in this mumbo jumbo. Go over there and tell them that running HCG for a whole cycle will **** you up and see what happens. There is a board FULL of people that run it this way based off of a HRT DR. So if you want some REAL hands on verifacation of what I post you wont be scared. Go there sign up and see if what I am telling you is bull****. I guarantee it isnt.

BTW: www.bodybuilding.com is a joke for a place for info on gear. Go else where.

In case you missed it. www.sculptedbyiron.com is the place to go to learn about HCG.

[BIG-T]

Sorry there, STOUT1, but as pussy as they sound, they're completley right. I used to be that way too, do as much **** as possible all at once. I think that is one of our biggest downfalls; we all want to get as big as possible/as fast as possible. But from experience, it's not the way to go. AS will definatley HELP u achieve what the body u want but u gotta be a little more opened minded. 2 fukin cents!

[Stout1]

Sorry there, STOUT1, but as pussy as they sound, they're completley right. I used to be that way too, do as much **** as possible all at once. I think that is one of our biggest downfalls; we all want to get as big as possible/as fast as possible. But from experience, it's not the way to go. AS will definatley HELP u achieve what the body u want but u gotta be a little more opened minded. 2 fukin cents!

Were did I say do as much **** as possible?

[KINGKONG]

Were did I say do as much **** as possible?

stout, why don't you go back to ironcalves.com or whatever were to stupid to be on the same board as the great stout..Are opinions don't matter...
Stop being so argumentative and just help PPL without the sarcasm Iam sure
you will get treated with much more respect on the board....

[Stout1]

stout, why don't you go back to ironcalves.com or whatever were to stupid to be on the same board as the great stout..Are opinions don't matter...
Stop being so argumentative and just help PPL without the sarcasm Iam sure
you will get treated with much more respect on the board....

What are these forums here for? I thought they were here to debate and to learn. Maybe I am wrong, but i doubt it.

I was simply implieng that doing HCG for an entire cycle WILL NOT SHUT YOU DOWN. But some people here tend to think I am BSing them, they obviously wont take my word for it so I told were to find the info on this. If they wouldnt be so scared of being proved wrong then whats the big deal. I know I have been wrong MANY of times on things. I am not afraid to admit it, but it irks me that people so I am telling BS when I know there are hundreds of people doing it this way and i have not heard a single one being shut down from doing HCG for an entire cycle.

BTW: I try to show people thru reasoning and facts and evidence, when they dont listen to that. Thats when the sarcasm come out. I am a fact based guy, dont give me the I know BS.

[johnsomebody]

This may seem like another hissy fight but actually I think you're ALL right -the sites that warn of not using HCG for long periods are referring to doses from 1500 to 3000 ius while the people that recommend using it throughout a cycle are recommending 250-500iu 2X/week.

[bignatt]

Long Exposure to hcg desensitizes the testes i will dig up a study

[johnsomebody]

Long Exposure to hcg desensitizes the testes i will dig up a study

That would be great. I and a lot of other people are using it regularly on cycles, generally 500iu 2X/week, based in large part on Swale's advice. The last thing I or anyone else wants to do is fry our balls.

[bignatt]

not a study but an article still digging

HCG / Pregnyl

Pharmaceutical Name: Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin
Effective dose: 1500-7500 IU every 5-6 days
Average Street-price: $4-6 per 5000 IU
Available Doses: 100,125,250,500, 1000, 1500,2000,2500,3000,5000,10000,20000 International Units

Characteristics:

Human chorionic gonadotrophin is a strange hormone. Its only found in the placenta of pregnant women. For women it has fairly little use if any however, but to the male athlete it has one interesting property. It can mimic the action of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. LH is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicles. The sex hormones in the body work via a negative feedback system, where too much sex hormone (like anabolic androgenic steroids and estrogens) causes a signal to the brain to stop the release of LH. During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

Since it forms testosterone in the body to some extent, it can impart certain performance enhancing properties, but usually these are not major. The side-effects accompanied with HCG use (usually androgenic such as extreme acne), its low rate of effect, the cost compared to more effective steroids and so on will mostly keep athletes from using it for that purpose. Moreover it can be tested for in athletic competitions, so most will stay clear of it. But to the steroid user HCG is an almost essential part of a cycle. Because of its effect on bringing testicle size back it can promote the return of natural testosterone, since the first natural signals can immediately deliver a higher yield of testosterone in the body. And getting natural testosterone back online after a cycle is crucial, especially if you intend to keep most of your hard-earned gains. Without adequate natural endocrine response you will not be able to maintain a mass that was higher than before.

The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex . When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

Also important to take into account : using HCG for too long a period of time or in doses that are excessively high, can desensitize the testicles to the effect of LH and would put your right back where you started from. Basically that would mean you spent money to no avail. In terms of side-effects one should expect some androgenic signs such as acne and there is a risk for hair loss or prostate hypertrophy, but in most cases this compound will be used for 3-4 weeks, so these should not manifest themselves to any serious degree. There will also be some estrogen build-up, but since the user HAS to be on clomid or Nolvadex, this should not become apparent either. Next to this, HCG being a fertility drug, one should be aware that increased blood pressure and blood clotting can occur. HCG is clinically used to make women ovulate, or to invoke birth in pregnant women.

Stacking and Use:

You would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile.

In any case, I'll repeat it again, since it is important. HCG IS and always will be an important part of post-cycle recovery, but it should never be run too long or at too high a dose and should always be accompanied by the use of either Clomid or Nolvadex. The use of Clomid or Nolvadex should also be continued at least 2 weeks after HCG is discontinued to avoid the HCG causing problems.

[bignatt]

HCG -

Pharmaceutical Name: Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin
Effective dose: 1500-7500 IU every 5-6 days
Average Street-price: $4-6 per 5000 IU
Available Doses: 100,125,250,500, 1000, 1500,2000,2500,3000,5000,10000,20000 International Units


Characteristics:

Human chorionic gonadotrophin is a strange hormone. Its only found in the placenta of pregnant women. For women it has fairly little use if any however, but to the male athlete it has one interesting property. It can mimic the action of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. LH is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicles. The sex hormones in the body work via a negative feedback system, where too much sex hormone (like anabolic androgenic steroids and estrogens) causes a signal to the brain to stop the release of LH. During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

Since it forms testosterone in the body to some extent, it can impart certain performance enhancing properties, but usually these are not major. The side-effects accompanied with HCG use (usually androgenic such as extreme acne), its low rate of effect, the cost compared to more effective steroids and so on will mostly keep athletes from using it for that purpose. Moreover it can be tested for in athletic competitions, so most will stay clear of it. But to the steroid user HCG is an almost essential part of a cycle. Because of its effect on bringing testicle size back it can promote the return of natural testosterone, since the first natural signals can immediately deliver a higher yield of testosterone in the body. And getting natural testosterone back online after a cycle is crucial, especially if you intend to keep most of your hard-earned gains. Without adequate natural endocrine response you will not be able to maintain a mass that was higher than before.



The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex . When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

Also important to take into account : using HCG for too long a period of time or in doses that are excessively high, can desensitize the testicles to the effect of LH and would put your right back where you started from. Basically that would mean you spent money to no avail. In terms of side-effects one should expect some androgenic signs such as acne and there is a risk for hair loss or prostate hypertrophy, but in most cases this compound will be used for 3-4 weeks, so these should not manifest themselves to any serious degree. There will also be some estrogen build-up, but since the user HAS to be on clomid or Nolvadex, this should not become apparent either. Next to this, HCG being a fertility drug, one should be aware that increased blood pressure and blood clotting can occur. HCG is clinically used to make women ovulate, or to invoke birth in pregnant women.

Stacking and Use:

You would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile.

In any case, I'll repeat it again, since it is important. HCG IS and always will be an important part of post-cycle recovery, but it should never be run too long or at too high a dose and should always be accompanied by the use of either Clomid or Nolvadex. The use of Clomid or Nolvadex should also be continued at least 2 weeks after HCG is discontinued to avoid the HCG causing problems.


Brands & Products:

Amsa Gonadotraphon LH (I) 125,250,1000,2000 or 5000 IU
Biomed Biogonadyl (PL) 500 or 2000 IU
Ferring Choragon (G) 1500 or 5000 IU
Forest Choron 10 (US) 1000 or 10000 IU
Hyrex Chorex (US) 5000 or 10000 IU
Leciva Praedyn (CZ) 1500 or 3000 IU
Leo Physex (DK,NO) 1500 or 3000 IU
Physex Leo (ES) 500,1500 or 5000 IU
Lepori HCG Lepori (ES) 500, 1000 or 2500 IU
Organon Gestyl (BG) 1000 IU
G. Chor. "Endo" (FR) 500,1500 or 5000 IU
Predalon (G) 500 or 5000 IU
Pregnyl (US) 10000 IU
Pregnyl (BG) 100 IU
Pregnyl (A,B,CH,GB,BG,GR,I, NL,PL,S,FI,YU,CZ,NO,HU) 5000 IU
Paines & Byrne Gonadatrophon (GB) 500,1000 or 500 IU
Pharmed HCG (US) 5000 or 10000 IU
Roberts Gonic (US) 1000 IU
Roussel Gonadotropyl-C (MX/FR) 5000 IU
Sanfer Gonakor (MX) 2500 IU
Schering Primogonyl (CH,G,CZ) 250 or 500 IU
Primogonyl (G,CH,YU,CZ) 5000 IU
Serono Profasi (CH,B,MX,S,FI,GB,NO,NL) 10000 IU
Profasi (CH,GB,MX,HU,FR) 500 IU
Profasi (HU,NL,MX) 1000 IU
Profasi (FR) 1500 IU
Profasi (A,B,CH,DK,HU,GB, GR,S,FR,NL,NO,MX) 2000 or 5000 IU
Pregnesin (G,CZ) 250,500,1000,2500 or 5000 IU
Steris HCG (US) 5000 or 10000 IU
Wyeth-Ayerst APL (US, SA) 5000,10000 or 20000 IU

[bignatt]

A.A.S. - Anabolic -androgenic steroids

HGC - Human chorionic gonadotrophin

Human chorionic gonadotrophin is a strange hormone. Its only found in the placenta of pregnant women. For women it has fairly little use if any however, but to the male athlete it has one interesting property. It can mimic the action of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. LH is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicles. The sex hormones in the body work via a negative feedback system, where too much sex hormone (like anabolic androgenic steroids and estrogens) causes a signal to the brain to stop the release of LH. During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG .

Since it forms testosterone in the body to some extent, it can impart certain performance enhancing properties, but usually these are not major. The side-effects accompanied with HCG use (usually androgenic such as extreme acne), its low rate of effect, the cost compared to more effective steroids and so on will mostly keep athletes from using it for that purpose. Moreover it can be tested for in athletic competitions, so most will stay clear of it. But to the steroid user HCG is an almost essential part of a cycle. Because of its effect on bringing testicle size back it can promote the return of natural testosterone, since the first natural signals can immediately deliver a higher yield of testosterone in the body. And getting natural testosterone back online after a cycle is crucial, especially if you intend to keep most of your hard-earned gains. Without adequate natural endocrine response you will not be able to maintain a mass that was higher than before.



The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex . When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

Also important to take into account : using HCG for too long a period of time or in doses that are excessively high, can desensitize the testicles to the effect of LH and would put your right back where you started from. Basically that would mean you spent money to no avail. In terms of side-effects one should expect some androgenic signs such as acne and there is a risk for hair loss or prostate hypertrophy, but in most cases this compound will be used for 3-4 weeks, so these should not manifest themselves to any serious degree. There will also be some estrogen build-up, but since the user HAS to be on clomid or Nolvadex, this should not become apparent either. Next to this, HCG being a fertility drug, one should be aware that increased blood pressure and blood clotting can occur. HCG is clinically used to make women ovulate, or to invoke birth in pregnant women

[bignatt]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=78327 also has things about desensitizing the testes

[bignatt]

HCG
Chorionic gonadotropin is a hormone found in the female body during the early months of pregnancy (it is produced in the placenta). It is in fact the pregnancy indicator looked at by the over the counter pregnancy test kits, as due to its origin it is not found in the body at any other time. Blood levels of this hormone will become noticeable as early as seven days after ovulation. The level will rise evenly, reaching a peak at approximately two to three months into gestation. After this point, the hormone level will drop gradually until the point of birth. As a prescription drug, HCG offers us some interesting benefits. In the United States, we have the two popular brands, Pregnyl, made by Organon, and Profasi, made by Serono. These are FDA approved for the treatment of undescended testicles in young boys, hypogonadism (underproduction of testosterone ) and as a fertility drug used to aid in inducing ovulation in women. When prepared as a medical item, this hormone comes from a human origin. Although there is often a fear of biological origin products, there is little research to be found regarding pathogen or sterility problems with HCG. The problems seen with human origin growth hormone are certainly not to be repeated with HCG, as this compound is obtained in a much different way.

While HCG offers the female no performance enhancing ability, it does prove very useful to the male steroid user. The obvious use of course being to stimulate the production of endogenous testosterone. The activity of HCG in the male body is due to its ability to mimic LH (luteinizing hormone), a pituitary hormone that stimulates the Leydig's cells in the testes to manufacture testosterone. Restoring endogenous testosterone production is a special concern at the end of each steroid cycle, a time when a subnormal androgen level (due to steroid induced suppression) could be very costly. The main concern is the action of cortisol, which in many ways is balanced out by the effect of androgens. Cortisol sends the opposite message to the muscles than testosterone, or to breakdown protein in the cell. Left unchecked (by an extremely low testosterone level) in the body, cortisol can quickly strip much of your new muscle mass away.

The main focus with HCG is to restore the normal ability of the testes to respond to endogenous luteinizing hormone. After a long period of inactivity, this ability may have been seriously reduced. In such a state testosterone levels may not reach a normal point, even though the release of endogenous LH has been resumed. Many who have suffered severe testicular shrinkage may be able to relate, as it is often some time before normal testicle size and feelings of virility are restored if ancillary drugs had not been used. The excessive stimulation brought forth by administration of HCG can likewise cause the testicles to rapidly return to their normal size and level of activity. We are not simply looking for it to fix the problem however, as the resulting high testosterone level can itself trigger negative feedback inhibition at the hypothalamus. Estrogen production is also heightened with the use of HCG, due to its ability to increase aromatase activity in the Leydig's cells. This is due to the main action of HCG, namely the increase of cycIicAMP (a secondary messenger that regulates cellular activity). When stimulated by HCG, the ability of the testes to aromatize androgens could potentially be heightened several times greater than normal. This also may inhibit testosterone production, so we therefore use HCG only as a quick shock to the testes.

The usual protocol is to inject 1500-3000 I.U. every 4th or 5th day, for a duration usually no longer than 2 or 3 weeks. If used for too long or at too high a dose, the drug may actually function to desensitize the Leydig's cells to luteinizing hormone, further hindering a return to homeostasis. Timing the initial dose is also very crucial. If your were coming off a cycle of Sustanon for example, testosterone levels in your blood will likely stay elevated for at least 3 to 4 weeks after your last injection. Taking HCG on the day of your last shot would therefore be useless. Instead one would want to calculate the last week in which androgen levels are likely to be above normal, and begin ancillary drug therapy at this point. In this case HCG would be started around the third or fourth week. Likewise, after ending a cycle of Dianabol (an oral) your blood levels will be sub normal after the third day. Here you may want to begin HCG therapy a few days before your last intake of tablets, giving it a few days to take effect. One would also want to give some thought to the level of suppression that the cycle might have brought about. After an 8 week cycle of Equipoise for example, 1500-2500 I.U. would likely be a sufficient initial dosage. The lower amount of hormonal suppression one associates with this drug would probably not require much more. On the other hand, 750-1000mg of Sustanon per week might incline the user to inject a much larger HCG dose, perhaps as much as 5000 I.U. for the opening application. It may thereafter also be a good idea to reduce the dosage on subsequent shots, so as to step down the intake of HCG during the two or three weeks of intake.

As discussed above, HCG acts only to mimic the action of LH. It is likewise not the perfect hormone to combat testosterone suppression, and for this reason it is used most often in conjunction with estrogen antagonists such as Clomid, Nolvadex or cyclofenil . These drugs have a different effect on the regulating system, namely inhibiting estrogen-induced suppression at the hypothalamus. This of course also helps to restore the release of testosterone, although through a much different mechanism than HCG. A combination of both drugs appears to be very synergistic, HCG providing an immediate effect on the testes (shocking them out of inactivity) while the antiestrogen helps later to block inhibition on the hypothalamus and resume the normal release of gonadotropins from the pituitary. The typical procedure involves giving the Clomid/Nolvadex dose from the start with HCG, but continuing it alone for a few weeks once HCG has been discontinued. This practice should effectively raise testosterone levels, which will hopefully remain stable once Clomid/Nolvadex have been discontinued. While unfortunately there is no way to retain all of the muscle gains produced by anabolic steroids , using ancillaries to restore a balanced hormonal state is the best way to minimize the loss felt with ending a cycle.

[511220]

With the difference in opinion on how to run HCG effectively. I could see running maybe 1500iu every 4th week in a long cycle and extending out passed the last test shot 1 week...

So for a 12 week

wk 4~ 1500iu (3x500 Mon/Thur/Sun)
wk 8~ 1500iu
Wk 12~1500iu
PCT
wk 13~1500iu

Just a thought...Natt?

[bignatt]

I just wouldnt run it at a high dose or for a long period of time what you stated could be alright but who knows i just personally would not run it for a long time

[johnsomebody]

The problem is neither a "high dose" nor a "long period of time" are ever defined. 500iu 2x/week for 12 weeks doesn't seem like it would be either.

[D-END]

I understand why guys argue over this and it is because we all hear different things from different people.

I heard:Smaller doses, more frequently during a cycle will give best overall results with least unwanted side effects. Somewhere between 500iu and 1000iu per day would be best over about a two-week period. These doses are sufficient to avoid/rectify testicular atrophy without increasing oestrogen levels too dramatically and risking gynecomastia . This dosing schedule also avoids the risk of permanently down-regulating the LH receptors in the testes.

[turboneon95]

I am taking 500mg of Testosterone Enanthate Per Week for 15 weeks. Also 30mg of D-Bol a day for the first 4 weeks AND 10mg of Nolvadex per day the whole time. I was going to start my clomid 2 weeks after my last injection and continue the nolvadex the whole time. When and how much should i take my Pregnyl (HCG ). I just want to use it at the end not during my intake.

[KINGKONG]

I am taking 500mg of Testosterone Enanthate Per Week for 15 weeks. Also 30mg of D-Bol a day for the first 4 weeks AND 10mg of Nolvadex per day the whole time. I was going to start my clomid 2 weeks after my last injection and continue the nolvadex the whole time. When and how much should i take my Pregnyl (HCG). I just want to use it at the end not during my intake.

IMO maybe not others...500iu twice a week all cycle through stopping when you start clomid at pct...

[Tropical Itch]

Question for bignatt wait in your first post you gave a sample hcg cycle of 300-500 3x/week for three weeks. but here later you write thisYou would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile

which one do you advocate and why

[johnsomebody]

Ummm, I kinda think BigNatt is not the person writing these articles on HCG . This is why they say different things. Whenever articles are put up they really ought to be put up WITH their sources.

[AVAGO]

are you wrighting this bignatt or just a copy stick man?