Adderall vs. Ephedrine

[Hyperlite]

I was prescribed adderall, but stopped taken it for several reasons, mainly because i dont know enought about it.

From reading, it seems to act soley on dopamine and norepinepherine systems. As far as dopamine goes, its seems to block the re-uptake of dopamine, causing a higher dopamine concentration in the synaptic cleft. I would not think any tolerence would build in this system, so maybe the tolerence is coming from norepenepherine stimulation.....so.....I wonder if ketotifen would help with bring it back to its old strength?

or maybe cycling would work well, something like 6 weeks on, 2 weeks off...?



btw, do you have to pay for the doctor visit to go get the script or will they write if for you by just going in? Office co-pay + RX co-pay = way to much $$$ for me and I will just stick to ephedrine which seems to be almost the same **** thing as methamphetamine( i believe the only difference is a hydroxide group on the #7 Carbon, instead of just a hydrogen)..


please chim in, i'm interested in learing more about adderall? Also, I bet an adderalll + Xenedrine EFX (or something similiar) would work well for fat loss?

[talon]

I think this is in the wrong forum, but Ill chime in. I think ephedrine and adderall are completely seperate entities. Remember even though ephedrine does drain your appetite, adderall does it even worse. I dont think adderall is methamphetamine either. Its composed of four differen amp. 2 being dex, but none are meth. I think meth is alot more potent and alot worse on your body. I would recommend ephedrine for cutting, but it was never a controlled substance, yes now illegal, but when it was on the market it was never controlled; adderall is. I view adderall as being more of a recreational drug then a drug used for cutting, unless its being used for ADD. If the latter part is the case, then I would recommend taking it the way the doctor prescribes it. Not cycling it or using it to cut, like I would ephedrine.

[Hyperlite]

First off, thanks Talon for your educated response to my post


I agree with some points that you make....I checked out a PDR from the my school library and found out that Adderall increases the dopamine and norepinepherine concentrations by blocking the reuptake of those neurotransmitter causing a higher concentration in the synaptic cleft, not by stimulating a release of them, which I had intentionally thought.

However, I was not able to find any information in the PDR for ephedrine, there is a PDR for non-prescription meds which I will go check out later. After reading some online articles about ephedrine, it seems to stimulate the release of norepinepherine and dopamine by stimulating the vesicles in the presynaptic terminal ending to release those two neurotransmitters into the synaptic cleft (the space between the pre-synaptic terminal ending and the dendrite).

Now to comment on your statement above.....

1.)Ephedrine is not illegal, Ephedra when used in a dietary supplement (**not the plant by itself) is however....
-Ma Huang (aka Ephedra) is a plant that contains several different alkaloids some of which are ephedrine, psuedoephedrine, etc. Ephedrine HCL is the synthetic drug that is the Vasopro product. I believe that Ma Haung is more effective due the synergistic, potentiational, and antagonistic effects of the different alkaloids on each other.

2.)You are right in saying adderall is composed of different amphetamines, Dextroamphetamine Saccharate, Amphetamine Aspartate, Dextroamphetamine sulfate, and Amphetamine sulfate to be specific.

3.)Your right, meth seems to be more potent, don't know why, but I suspect it has something to with the fact that is smoked/snorted most of the time (Smoking it takes about 8 seconds for it to reach the brain and taking a pill takes about 30min-1hour for it to reach the brain)....... I bet the differences in affects between methamphetamine and amphetamine would be comparable to the difference between smoking weed and eating it in brownies.


To illustrate what I was talking about before:


This is meth:


This is Ephedrine:


I put arrows to show the differences, notice the hydroxide group attached to the #7 carbon and a methane group (CH3) on the #7 carbon....

Now to through it all together....I believe for cutting taking Adderal XR and something like an ephedra free fat burner would be superior to the current ECA stack.

Here is why:


Notice the extended, more controlled release and the longer half-life(about 7.5 hours) of the drug, compared to ephedrine which has a half-life of 4 hours. To me, this would allow more control keep the norepinepherine and dopamine levels stablier throughout that day and not have a crash at the end of the day, which I experienced A LOT on ephedrine. I also wonder if the chemicals in the thermogenic supplement would work synergisticly with the adderall to provide a better effect.

Using my definition of "recreational drug use", I will agree 100% that adderall is a recreational drug, I must also say that AAS is then a "rec drug". Students use it as a study-aide, truck drivers use it to stay awake, and then there are other obvious social/club uses. Now to me the problem is not the rec. use itself, but rather the irresponsible actions taken during some of those situations. Personally I think if you want to pop some bars, go rollin', or drop acid to achieve a high state of conciousness tha will be productive to yourself and society, then have it, but if your gonna do all those things and act like a jackass by not educating yourself about the drug and pass out or die on the ground because of stupidity, then I have a BIG bias toward that person. Not only has that person make himself look like a jackass, he has given all the responsible users a bad name. You see the same thing in Anabolic steroid use, dumb ass teengers not researching and messing themselves up and in the process giving everyone a bad name.

alright, i'm done i think

[bulldawg_28]

Norepinephrine does bind to the beta receptors. So using something like benadryl or keto will help upregulate the beta receptors. But NE also acts on the alpha receptors, which is more stimulatory, while binding to beta receptors is inhibitory. I Hope that helps.

[nsa]

Plain and simple, don't use adderall unless you have ADHD or at least suspect that you have some cognitive disability. Its not a cutting drug, so don't use it for cutting. There are much more effective cutting drugs available than adderall.

[nsa]

btw, do you have to pay for the doctor visit to go get the script or will they write if for you by just going in? Office co-pay + RX co-pay = way to much $$$ for me and I will just stick to ephedrine which seems to be almost the same **** thing as methamphetamine( i believe the only difference is a hydroxide group on the #7 Carbon, instead of just a hydrogen)..

Im not sure but i think it varies from state to state. In new jersey you have to go to the doctor to get the script every month. They are supposed to monitor your BP and weight along with a few other things.

[NewBreed]

Isn´t 20mg of Amfetamine a hell lot of a dose?
I´ve had prescribed Methamphetamine at 3mg and even that i splitted it into halfs.
No sides but worked very good for me in more matters than those prescribed for.
(gave me a good allergie-relief,too).

[prolangtum]

If you do not have adhd adderall can be very addicitve. Dont kid yourself into thinking you can drop it when ever you want to. It will become more and more an every day thing.

[nsa]

Isn´t 20mg of Amfetamine a hell lot of a dose?
I´ve had prescribed Methamphetamine at 3mg and even that i splitted it into halfs.
No sides but worked very good for me in more matters than those prescribed for.
(gave me a good allergie-relief,too).

Its not methamphetamine. And i believe they only manufacture 20 mg adderall's by XR, and XR's are supposedly time released.

[prolangtum]

They do prescribe methamphetamine, brand name desoxyn. It is rarely prescribed though. Dexedrine is pure d=amp and comes in 5mgs. They also make 10,20 and 30 mg IR (immediate release) adderall, but this is less commonly prescribed. I have used both IR, and XR adderall, and ER (extended release) and IR dexedrine. Dexedrine i more potent, and cleaner than adderall, not having the worthless l isomer, which is what gives adderall most of its bad sides.

[Lord Humungous]

My daughter takes Adderall for ADHD and the generic name for it is Amphetamine salts it is not Methamphetamine.

[prolangtum]

who said it was?

[NewBreed]

Nobody.I just wondered that 3mg of Meth is a decent dose and 10-12mg of adderall maybe a lot more.
Sometimes I think dosing-regimes are fake or they´re encounting misuse of the hole family to sell more.

Also starting-doses are IMHO mucht too high.You may get more out of the whole thing if you start at much less than prescribed then you´ll need rapidly more ´til it plateaus and you don´t need much more or less to get the results until it wears off completely and you better switch to something different or stop taking it for a while.

They don´t sell for nothing 5-20mg IR and XR pills,but docs are making it easy to themselves and just prescibe their favs.

[Hyperlite]

I'm 5'11 190lbs, so thats why i think the doctor started me off at 20mg of the "XR" type. Do I have ADHD? Honestly, I don't think so, I have a really good memory but my main problem is finding the motivation to start studying. I didn't tell the doctor any lies or anything and they seem to think it's fine for me to take it, now i'm sure that came with a little pressure from the pharmceutical companies talking in their ear.


I only wish to use it during Fall and Spring semesters for help in studying. How much are ya'll paying for your prescriptions? Albertsons quoted me $110 without insurance for a months supply of Adderall XR 20mg type and with insurance it came to $40....I think i'm going the ask the doctor to prescribe me a generic brand, even though it may not be extended-release...


Bulldawg 28: You sure about the beta-receptor being inhibitory? To my knowledge, all receptors(which are found on the post-synaptic side) are excitatory, it's the neurotransmitters themselves that excite or inhibit the receptor firing.....


Thanks for all your inputs

[GQSuperman]

did you doctor really prescribe that just b/c you had trouble studying? ****, thought everyone had trouble studying. i personally can only focus for 15-30 minutes before i have to take a break. i think studing for 2 or 4 hours straight is counterproductive anyway.

a lot of med students are starting to use that stuff to ":focus" more and study more. i personally would look for another way to get the job done. is ADHD really a disorder anyway? when i was younger, it was called hyperactivity and they simply told you to quit giving your kid sugar. or, it was discipline problem and you had to parent you child to get him to behave.

don't know, just think the pharm companies are looking to make money and greasing the doctors pockets so they prescibe more and more stuff every day.

[nsa]

Yes, ADHD is a disorder. Since the early 1980's they have been using more than just a modified sugar intake to treat it; it started with ritalin, then adderall and recently straterra.

[prolangtum]

I took strattera for a while, It did help me concetrate without the stimulant sides, but made me nauseous.

[GQSuperman]

i know...used to be ADD, now ADHD. just saying that most of us grew up with it and just called it hyperactivity. we weren't medicated and turned out fine. ****, if you've gotten to college, it obviously isn't that big of a problem. especially with all the new data that arising on drugs these days with unexpected sides (even aleve is now under scuteny), i figure why keep over prescriibing all of this stuff.

[prolangtum]

I too have ADHD but the sides of the medicine along with the long term neural health that amphetamines affect is not worth the extra concentration.

[Hyperlite]

Gqsuperman: I agree with just about everything you've statement. It all seems to the capitalist and competitive nature of the american citizen. Your **** straight the doctors and pharm companies know exactly what they're doing. However, it seems to be a win-win situation for just about everyone.....The Doctor gets money from you/insurance, the Pharm. companies get there money therefore creating more jobs, The patient gets their desired fix(whatever that may). I hate to go back to basic economics, but thats exactly what it is. Doctors have to turn patients, just like servers have to turn tables....

There is definitly a lot more pressure for highschool/college students today than before. I'm taking the pre-med/pharmacy course that those schools require and it's a bitch, weed-out courses, all of 'em....


From what i've read, it seems to be a trade-off. Either you are a capitalist society with a strong, materialistic economy and 40-50-60 hour work weeks(ie:USA) or you are more layed back with weaker and less materialistic economy and party and work 25-40 hours a week(ie: Europe).


prolangtum: What are the long-term health effects of realtivley low-dosed, controlled/cycled amphetamine use?........Excitotoxicity?

[nsa]

Possible side effects of amphetamines include:

- an allergic reaction (difficulty breathing; closing of the throat; swelling of the lips, tongue, or face; or hives);

- an irregular heartbeat or very high blood pressure (severe headache, blurred vision); or hallucinations, abnormal behavior, or confusion.

Other, less serious side effects may be more likely to occur. Continue to take amphetamine and talk to your doctor if you experience

-restlessness or tremor
-anxiety or nervousness
-headache or dizziness
i-nsomnia
-dry mouth or an unpleasant taste in the mouth
-diarrhea or constipation
-impotence or changes in sex drive

I have used adderall before partying to keep from passing out after drinking, only to find that when i bring a girl back to my room i can't get any wood. I don't know if it was because i was too drunk or if it was the adderall.

[playa4933]

newbreed where the hell you gettin desoxyn? Aka pharm meth. I didnt even think they made those anymore. Or are you using street speed? Adderall will give you great energy, but lose appitite. dont know much about Eph though

[prolangtum]

prolangtum: What are the long-term health effects of realtivley low-dosed, controlled/cycled amphetamine use?........Excitotoxicity?

Effects of amphetamines on mitochondrial function: role of free radicals and oxidative stress.

Brown JM, Yamamoto BK.

Department of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, L-613, School of Medicine, Boston University, 715 Albany Street, Boston, MA 02118, USA.

Amphetamine-like psychostimulants are associated with long-term decreases in markers for monoaminergic neurons, suggesting neuronal loss and/or damage within the brain. This long-term "toxicity" results from formation of free radicals, particularly reactive oxygen species (ROS) and reactive nitrogen species (RNS), although the mechanism(s) of ROS and RNS formation are unclear. Mitochondria are a major source of ROS and mitochondrial dysfunction has been linked to some neurodegenerative disorders. Amphetamines also inhibit mitochondrial function, although the mechanism involved in the inhibition is uncertain. This review coordinates findings on the multiple pathways for ROS and RNS and describes a hypothesis involving mitochondrial inhibition in the initiation of amphetamine-induced cellular necrosis.

[prolangtum]

This can be applied to amphetamines as they are structurally very close
Methamphetamine and MDMA (ecstasy) neurotoxicity: 'of mice and men'.

Itzhak Y, Achat-Mendes C.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Science and the Neuroscience Program, University of Miami School of Medicine, Miami, Florida 33136, USA. yitzhak@med.miami.edu

Methamphetamine (METH) and 3,4-meythylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA; 'ecstasy') are currently major drugs of abuse. One of the major concerns of amphetamines abuse is their potential neurotoxic effect on dopaminergic and serotonergic neurons. Although data from human studies are somewhat limited, compelling evidence suggests that these drugs cause neurotoxicity in rodents and primates. Recent studies in transgenic and knockout mice identified the role of dopamine transporters, nitric oxide, apoptotic proteins, and inflammatory cytokines in amphetamines neurotoxicity. Further research into the mechanisms underlying the dopaminergic and serotonergic neurotoxicity and the behavioral corollaries of these neuronal insults could facilitate our understanding of the consequences of human abuse of METH and MDMA on cognition, drug-seeking behavior, extinction and relapse.

PMID: 15370888 [PubMed - in process]

[prolangtum]

One more

Microglial activation is a pharmacologically specific marker for the neurotoxic amphetamines.

Thomas DM, Dowgiert J, Geddes TJ, Francescutti-Verbeem D, Liu X, Kuhn DM.

Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Neurosciences, Wayne State University School of Medicine, 2125 Scott Hall, 540 E Canfield, Detroit, MI 48201, USA.

Neurotoxic amphetamines cause damage to monoamine nerve terminals of the striatum by unknown mechanisms. Microglial activation contributes to the neuronal damage that accompanies injury, disease, and inflammation, but a role for these cells in amphetamine-induced neurotoxicity has received little attention. We show presently that D-methamphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), D-amphetamine, and p-chloroamphetamine, each of which has been linked to dopamine (DA) or serotonin nerve terminal damage, result in microglial activation in the striatum. The non-neurotoxic amphetamines l-methamphetamine, fenfluramine, and DOI do not have this effect. All drugs that cause microglial activation also increase expression of glial fibrillary acidic protein (GFAP). At a minimum, microglial activation serves as a pharmacologically specific marker for striatal nerve terminal damage resulting only from those amphetamines that exert neurotoxicity. Because microglia are known to produce many of the reactive species (e.g., nitric oxide, superoxide, cytokines) that mediate the neurotoxicity of the amphetamine-class of drugs, their activation could represent an early and essential event in the neurotoxic cascade associated with high-dose amphetamine intoxication.

PMID: 15337264 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Hyperlite]

Good information, however, I didn't see anything about the extent of the damage. Was it a lot, was it a little, does it matter that much?

It seems some of our best scientist have "creative" ways of wording things to stay politically correct....

[bulldawg_28]

Bulldawg 28: You sure about the beta-receptor being inhibitory? To my knowledge, all receptors(which are found on the post-synaptic side) are excitatory, it's the neurotransmitters themselves that excite or inhibit the receptor firing.....

I got that out of my A&P book. Here's the paragraph.

Adrenergic Receptors

There are also two major classes of adrenergic (NE binding) receptors:alpha and beta. Organs that respond to NE have one or both types of receptor. In general, NE bind to a receptors is stimulatory, and their binding to B receptors is inhibitory. But there are exceptions. For example, binding NE to the B receptors of cardiac muscle prods the heart into more vigorous activity. These differences reflect the fact that both a and b receptors have two or three receptor sublcasses (a1, and a2; b1, b2, and b3) and each receptor type predominates in certain organs. (Human Anatomy & Physiology Sixth Edition; Elaine N. Marieb)

[Hyperlite]

I got that out of my A&P book. Here's the paragraph.

Adrenergic Receptors

There are also two major classes of adrenergic (NE binding) receptors:alpha and beta. Organs that respond to NE have one or both types of receptor. In general, NE bind to a receptors is stimulatory, and their binding to B receptors is inhibitory. But there are exceptions. For example, binding NE to the B receptors of cardiac muscle prods the heart into more vigorous activity. These differences reflect the fact that both a and b receptors have two or three receptor sublcasses (a1, and a2; b1, b2, and b3) and each receptor type predominates in certain organs. (Human Anatomy & Physiology Sixth Edition; Elaine N. Marieb)

I think i might have the same book, is it orange with a picture of a human body in the anatomical position on the cover? Anyways, not to attack you, but how do you explain the stimulatory effects of Clenbuterol, a beta-2-agonist...?

[prolangtum]

Amphetamines also increase cortisol through the roof (much more so than ephedrine) and I dont think I have to even elaborate on what chronically high cortisol levels do to a person. They burn both muscle and fat, which is not a good thing of course. I have also seen some studies that show amphetamines being fat sparing. Basically it is one of the worst things you can do body comp wise, and really goes against everything you are trying to do in the gym.

[Hyperlite]

I'm sure it's dose dependant and different for every person....

[jkarcs55]

adhd is a chemical disorder so yes it truely is a disorder as much as depression is

[prolangtum]

it is dose dependent,but any amount of amphetamine will increase cortisol and free radicals.

[nsa]

Just a general rule of thumb, don't use amphetamines unless there exists a medical condition which warrants use of them. They can become addictive and are not helping your goals in the gym.

[prolangtum]

Just a general rule of thumb, don't use amphetamines unless there exists a medical condition which warrants use of them. They can become addictive and are not helping your goals in the gym.

word

[nsa]

Hey Prolangtum, what is your level of education? You and bryan2 seem comparable to my level of knowledge in regards to organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology.

[prolangtum]

I just have a bachelor's in Business Management. I just over the years have taken to various subjects that intrest me as farmy bodybuilding goals. FYI, if your intrested in a more science based forum with a few guys with masters, PHD's, and guys like Pat Arnold, etc, check out forum.avantlabs.com

[nsa]

Yeah, i've been to avant labs website. I like anabolic minds as well. But i keep coming back to this board.

[nsa]

I am only working on my bachelor's degree in exercise physiology and hopefully entering medical school in 2 years.

[prolangtum]

I think you could be a good addition and learn a lot over at AL especially in the advanced theory and discussion board.

[nsa]

I will probably get into posting over at AL and at AM during the summer when i have time, as of right now i don't have the time to do it with my studies taking up almost all of my time thats not eating, lifting or sleeping.