IGF cycling troubles

[OneEyedJohnny]

I just got some goodies to put together a cycle/cycles. My goal is to get the best total, long-term, lbm gains that I will keep. My current bw=160lbs and bf%=7.7% at 6' 0". The goodies I have are as follows:

2-1mg vials IGTropin LR3 IGF-1
3-10ml vials QV EQ 200mg/ml
1-10ml vial QV Deca 300mg/ml
about 15-30ml (estimated) homebrew fina 150mg/ml from old cycle 1 year ago
about 50-60ml (estimated) homebrew prop 100mg/ml from old cycle 1 year ago
unlimited access to Novolog (Humalog) and Novolin-R (regular slin)

A buddy of mine that has a decent amount of experience suggested breaking this stuff into 2 cycles:
cycle #1
day 1-25 igf 20mcg(10iu) SQ bid with 5iu novolog or R to prevent igf loss in pin
wk 1-18 fina 120mg(0.8cc) IM eod
wk 1-18 prop 150mg(1.5cc) IM eod
wk 1-15 eq 200mg(1.0cc) IM 2x/wk

30 day L-dex/clomid/nolva bridge to cycle #2

day 1-25 igf 20mcg(10iu) SQ bid with 5iu novolog or R
wk 1-10 deca 300mg(1.0cc) IM weekly
wk 1-13 fina 120mg(0.8cc) IM eod
wk 1-13 prop 150mg (1.5cc) IM eod

another 30 day L-dex/clomid/nolva PCT

Fina/prop is continued after deca and eq to allow hormone levels to remain elevated until deca/eq levels diminish enough to begin PCT immediately post-cycle. I plan on getting an anti-progesterone(bromo or caber) just in case.

One concern I do have about breaking these goodies into 2 cycles is that each cycle is started with 2 short cycles of igf, wouldn't it be more beneficial to run the igf for one solid 50 day cycle at 20mcg bid to potentiate cell hyperplasia? If so would you run all compounds into 1 cycle or do 1 igf/aas cycle(for hyperplasia and hypertrophy) and then a second aas-only cycle (for further hypertrophy of the new muscle cells) with pct between and then afterwards? If so how would you suggest those cycles be planned out? I am somewhat knowledgeable but not experienced with a large cycle such as this and am having trouble planning it out. Like I said before I plan on bulking with an emphasis on lbm, but due to my metabolism that shouldn't be difficult. Also any further recommendations on insulin usage during my cycle/cycles?

I have followed many forums, including AR (the best one out there), and know you guys get a lot of cycling questions, so I apologize in advance.

Thanx,
OneEye

[Whitey]

What's up, bro - welcome to AR! Just to let you know, it's going to be tough to get a lot of good advice on your cycle when, looking at your stats, it's going to be abundantly clear to everyone on here that you're not ready for even an AAS cycle, let alone AAS + IGF-1 + slin. It looks like you've done some research, and that's great - but you've got at least 30 pounds to put on naturally with proper diet and training. That's my best advice. Not what you wanted to hear, I know...

[OneEyedJohnny]

Hey Whitey, thanx for the welcome. If you look at my profile I have done numerous simple cycles ... 2 D-bol cycles, 1 test enth cycle, 1 Norandren-50 cycle, and a long fina/prop cycle. I have been working out since I have been 14 yoa, I am 29 now, with 2 or 3 2 year spans that I did not workout in my late teens and early twenties due to partying and chasing after girls. I regularly do BID Novolog cycles in an effort to gain weight, but due to my rock solid metabolism and small frame have difficulty making gains even with a diet of 6000-8000 calories. Before I started using gear I weighed 130lbs and got up to 180 during my fina/prop cycle last year, but due to purchasing a house that needed a lot of fix up and getting married was unable to keep my gains due to other priorities, unfortunately (please smack me upside the head). You can ask my wife I eat like a hog and have even tried using other supplements to decrease certain catabolic hormone levels that might be preventing me from building mass (ie-phosphatidylserine to decrease cortisol). I have also tried using clonidine and other meds that I can get at work to help elevate other endogenous hormone levels like GH and insulin. What can I say I am a hardgainer, my friends even joke around saying that they wish they had my metabolism ... I just wish I had their ability to gain. I take vitamins, creatine, crunch on protein bars inbetween meals, etc all in an effort to keep my muscles bathed in the nutrients they need to grow. Sometimes I think I have a tapeworm. I am a Registered Nurse and have a decent knowledge of muscle chemistry and diet ... I have used supplements/proteins/diet for years in an effort to gain mass, it isn't something that I have only been doing for a year or only when I am juicing. I have had my cortisol, testosterone, and tsh levels checked numerous times and all are within normal limits. I have succumb to the fact that I am a hardgainer and use hormones to make gains when I have the extra cash on hand. I have been told numerous times on other boards that I need to eat more or train more, but when I review an example of a daily diet or weekly training plan they say "WTF, you should at least be getting fat if you aren't building muscle". If anyone is willing to review my diet/workout routine with me on this board I would be more than willing to, I am sure I might have some minor weak points that could be pointed out, **** we all do. But in the end, you would probably end up helping me plan out my cycle. Sorry for the long post but I eat better and can out eat a friend I know on this board that is around or above the 200lb mark. If it takes me reviewing my diet/workout routine with anyone on this board I am more than willing to do so. I just would like some feedback on this cycle I have planned out. I hope to become a regular member of this board and make some friends in the process ... I am not looking for sources or hookups.

Thanx,
OneEye

[JohnnyB]

A diet of 6000-8000 calories and you still weigh a buck 60, there is no way. We didn't just fall off the turnip truck here, figuring you at 20 colories x your body weight, which is a high number. That give you 3200 calories to maintian your weight, you added 2800-4800 calories to that and you can't get passed 160, okay.

You need to come again with the real, not BS

JohnnyB

[Whitey]

Bro, I think you should definitely hop over to the diet forum and get your diet straightened out. It is somewhat of a physical impossibility for a guy your size to eat 6000-8000 calories and not gain some kind of serious weight. I am not calling you out on this - I just think you may be overlooking something big or using some faulty assumptions, because that does not compute.

I've got 60 pounds on you at the same height, and I don't come close to eating 6000, let alone 8000 calories a day. I don't think I could force myself to eat that much clean food right now. Get the diet checked out, bro.

[OneEyedJohnny]

Well here is a short sample of a morning at work before lunch ... I drink 12 oz of milk after I get out of the shower on the way out the door to get something in my system right after I wake up (around 6am), breakfast (9am) consists of 5 hardboiled eggs, 8oz of brownsugar & cinnamon oatmeal with 10 packets of sugar I add, 1 yogurt /c fruit on bottom, 5 pints whole milk, and 32 oz mix of reg oj & tangerine/oj and 10units novolog. Between 10-11am I drink an Ensure HN and 3 pints of milk to maintain my BG. Lunch (12-1:30pm) is around 1500-2000 cals, with 5u novolog. Around 2:30-3pm do 2-3 pints milk with 3-4 packets of sugar. After i get off work around 8pm I usually go for McDonalds because of the xtra cals, Big Mac xtra sauce, Crispy chiken xtra mayo, fish fillet xtra tartar, super size fry, super size soda, and large choc milkshake. Depending on how full I am before bed I might get down another 12oz milk B4 bed. On my days off I usually sub milk for a protein drink and MetRx Big 100 bars to give about the same # cals and better protein #'s. I have a killer metabolism and anxiety, so I burn up a lot of calories ... I have a 1-2" fat pad I carry around my bellybutton that I really don't want but can't pack on muscle even with intense workouts. I can only seem to gain 5-10lbs of muscle above my base weight, it fluctuates. The only time my body seems to be able to go above that is when I use gear. My friends (that workout 190-200+lbs) and wife that see the way I eat and workout, can't believe that I can't gainweight. They say it must be my genetics or something. The only thing I have problems with is my rest patterns, on average I can only sleep for 5-7 hrs/night, most of the time I wake up before my alarm goes off for work in the AM ... I might get a full 8 hours once or twice/week. I have tried different training techniques throughout the years, seems I do better when I concentrate on my negatives. I am small framed and have bad genetics, that is what I assume to be the problem. All I want is some feedback on my cycle. Cell hyperplasia is going to occur regardless if I use IGF, even if we work on my diet/workout. I can send pictures of myself, I am not talking smack. I am not the most knowledgeable person in the world or even on this board but I wasn't born yesterday, I have been into weight training and AAS since I was 16 years old with my first cycle of gear when I was 18. I just would like some help with my cycle, since I hope to start it within the next week, and I promise you guys I will post on the diet/training section to work out any weak points I might have, hopefully before I start my cycle. Like I said I want to be a member of this board and make some friends along the way, I am not here to ruffle any feathers.

Thanx,
John

[bluethunder]

Bro, welcome but 8000kcals a day?? Personally I think you are overdoing your cycle a bit. Why not stick to something very basic like a test only cycle for 15 weeks? And by the way hyperplasia is NOT going to happen without igf/hgh but hypertrophy yes. And as a side note alot of the calories you are consumming are EMPTY with crap nutritional value ie. sugar!! And I know about hardgainer because I was 115lbs at 20yrs old and now 180lbs low bf many years later with no juice(natural) .Only till recently used it as my body has reached a limit or homeostatis state.

[OneEyedJohnny]

hey bluethunder, thanx for the welcome to the board,
I meant in regards to igf, that cell hyperplasia is going to occur whether I work on my diet/workout in one of the different sections and cause more hypertrophy to the cells, because I plan to use it in my cycle as the base. Like I said, I eat a lot, it may not be the cleanest diet, but I still probaly still eat around 4000-4500 "clean" calories. In fact I just read all these posts to my wife and she is laughing now, she said that I can eat like the little chinese dude in the Coney Island hot dog eating contest that out ate all the 300-500 lb guys. Ok I see that nobody is going to believe what I say because I am a small guy and am new to the board. I just wanted some input for my cycle/cycles for the best gains, not an analysis of why I am so small, maybe I shouldn't have posted any info about myself ... I have figured out that poor genetics (small frame and close insertion of tendons to the joint) and post traumatic stress disorder induced anxiety and denser than normal adrenalin receptors that cause my heart to respond more drastically to small amounts of adrenalin (doctor diagnosed after several tests including EKG and echocardiogram, he then put me on atenolol which made me very lethargic even at a dose of 12.5mg which is a PITA to quarter that small ass pill, so I quit taking it years ago), all this make it difficult for me to gain weight. This is why I end up leaving other boards but a friend of mine that is a member said that this board is the best board, and I have been watching this board for awhile. Figured I would give this place a try. Trust me, my problems frustrate ME ... there is no need to harass me and frustrate me further. If you don't believe me, then fine, tell me that, but at least give me your guys opinions as to what to do with my gear. I plan to use the fina/prop as a base for both cycles, adding eq to one cycle and deca to the other, which one (eq/deca) would be better to run with the igf? If anyone has any other recommendations on how to run these compounds that I listed in my first post (up top) feel free ... and if anyone wants to talk to me about diet/training please PM me (I have broadband internet and stay logged in to the board).

Thanx,
OneEye

[bluethunder]

I do not think I myself or anyone else was harrassing you. I gave you just a opinion. If you say you have certain medical issues why not get a legal Rx? I am not one to give cycle advice except basic but more on the diet/training side. I also noticed that you are using 1 year old homebrew and do not understand why you do not ditch that and homebrew some new batch? You make good money and its cheap why risk infection? Yea that asian guy can eat alot of dogs as I have seen them on tv. He is skinny and beats the big fat dudes because the reason being is that his stomach can be allowed to expand more then a fat mans belly because the stomach of the fat guy cannot expand agaisnt fat so is restricted.

[OneEyedJohnny]

Blue,
Well to hear people say that they don't believe me "feels", in a way, harassing. I have dealt with this on several boards over the past 10 years, and it gets kind of old ... I am a Nurse and know how to figure out nutrition numbers in regards to portion size, its not like I eat a spoonful of yogurt and use the numbers on the nutrition label for a full 6oz serving to get my #'s. As far as the fina/syno that I converted, my medical training makes me very aware of aseptic technique, I am very comfortable knowing that my gear is bacteria-free ... I plan on heat-cycling it again before I use it, since that stuff once converted is good for at least a couple years. Plus it would feel like a big waste tossing out 4500mg of fina and 6000mg of prop, I do make good money but am not in the habit of wasting it. If I need more fina/syno to complete the cycle/cycles, I hope to get experienced feedback/recommendations on, then I will get more. Plus I know guys that have used their homebrewed fina/prop up to 2 years later without heat-cycling it again and they never got an abscess, and I know their aseptic technique was not as good as mine.
That chinese dude can down some dogs, I would be jealous if I were gay. I would like to see some porn stars go to that contest and show off their skills.

Btw, I am posting some pics in the member pics section of what I looked like during my fina/prop cycle and what I look like now ... check it out so you can see what I look like.

OneEye

[angelxterminator]

Just read through your daily diet, and that is nowhere near 8000 cals.

Yesterday I ate 8200 cals and this is EXACTLY what I ate. Compare this to yours, and tell me how close to 8000cals you were.

Meal 1
8 pancakes
8 sausage links
2 servings of hash
1/4lb bacon
6oz maple syrup
6oz reheated sirloin

Meal 2
1/4lb filet of salmon in dill sauce
1/2lb chicken breast
mashed potatos with chicken gravy

Meal 3 PWO shake
50 grams of protein from whey isolate
100 grams of dextrose
15 grams creatine

Meal 4 PPWO
1/2lb boneless skinless chicken tenders in teryaki sauce
rest of the mashed potatos(4 large potatos between meal 2 and this meal)

Meal 5
12 oz eye of round steak
assorted veggies (mostly asparagus and broccoli)
1tbsp of flax seed oil

Meal 6
1/2lb boneless skinless tenders in thai peanut sauce
the rest of the steamed asparagus with peanut sauce on it

Meal 7
1 scoop whey isolate
1 1/2 scoops casein protein
1 1/2 tbsp flax oil

[angelxterminator]

For reason what I ate seems almost double what you ate...

Your diet seems extremely high in calories that wont help, sugar for instance. Up your complex carbs and protein and lower you shlt intake...

Obviously a very clean diet is not what you need. My advice (sorry swole) would be to eat tons of breads, pasta, and white rice.

Make friends with flax seed oil and start using it in almost every meal.

Adopt lean steak and chicken and add it to almost every meal. Protein is what will strap on muscle, not the 1000calories it seems you get from sugar alone!

[OneEyedJohnny]

Like I said 6000-8000, I usually stay closer to the 6000 mark, so I gave a diet that I normally follow. Some days I eat more, but rarely do I eat less. Also my diet isn't the best quality, like I said I use sugar while I am at work to up the carb counts so that I don't go hypoglycemic. I cycle insulin regularly and usually use sugar and milk or sugar and Ensure HN, so that I get my carbs and protein, but have limited resources at work (except what dietary stocks us with, like applesauce, jello, fruit cocktail, ensure, glucerna, pulmocare, jevity, milk, and numerous fruit juices) and really can't leave the floor because it is so busy. I make due with what I got. As far as quality caloric intake, straight food and liquid nourishment, including the milk/ensure/and sometimes jevity 1.2cal when it is available, I have figured up that it fluctuates between 4000-4500 quality calories. Like JohnnyB said I should be eating 3800 ... above and beyond the quality calories, I probably consume another 1500 calories of sugar, honey, icecream, and other forms of junk food when I have the chance, just to increase my caloric intake. Granted I am on my feet for up to 12-13 hours on the days I work, and constantly moving, passing meds, taking care of whiny, needy people that want me to come into their room every 20 minutes, spread that across 7 patients and you can kind of figure that I am constantly moving ... burning calories, that is why I take advantage of what is available to me. So how about that cycle? ... lol

OneEye

[OneEyedJohnny]

Thanx exterminator, that is exactly what I wanted to hear, I try to do exactly that at my lunch time meal ... mash taters, deli sandwiches with big rolls, macaroni, pizza, etc. I just reloaded myself with 5 boxes of Big 100 bars at BJ's wholesale club, in preparation for next week when I start my cycle. Now I just need help with that, which is what I came here for. If you check out the member pics section you can see what I looked like at 180 on my fina/prop cycle. I started out at 150, ate really clean, and sucked down protein drinks/bars inbetween meals ... that was a good 30lbs, but didn't do PCT and neglected myself due to the other priorities I previously mentioned. I just want the best gains out of what I have, since I am starting it next week. I would prefer to have the guidance of the board for my cycle plans. I really want to do this, to the point that I am almost obsessed. I promise to work on my diet, if I can get some guidance as far as my cycle goes. So add more complex carbs and flax seed oil with each meal, done. I also bought a 5 pound box earlier today of spagetti at BJ's, 3 24 count egg beaters bulk boxes, 2 gallons of OJ, and 10lbs of boneless, skinless chicken breast. So back to this forum, since we are off topic, my IGF cycle?

OneEye

[Mr. Sparkle]

Angel was basically getting at that, calories that are from sugar are no good for bulking. Sure you can eat a bag of m&ms and hi 10k.... but that isnt what you want.

And how often do you use slin and how do you use it... your scaring me with what you have said about it...

[jgg1221]

6ft tall and less than 160lbs LBM?

and that many cycles?

your obviously doing something wrong if youve taken that much juice without getting huge